Accident involving 146 at the DCDR

Bonus_Pack · 26-06-2012 1:42pm #1

Last year I was over on IRN and in September, there was an "incident" invoving 146. There was some damage but it was claimed to be repairable. There seemed to have been speculation sorrounding the "incident" that claimed it was a result of some "scandalous" activiy. Some posts were deleted which hinted at unauthorised persons gaining access to the cab of the running loco and others which speculated that the crash could potentially be the result of some deliberate action by someone who may or may not be connected to the DCDR. However, I couldn't get any more information as they have been very tight lipped about it over on IRN who pretty much banned the topic from discussion and said that there would be a full report issued by the DCDR in due course.

Now, I thought that if it were a straight forward accident there would have been no need for the whole thing to be shrouded in secrecy and it was also discouraged for members to discuss the level of damage. Some were saying that 146 was a total write off and damaged to the extent that it would have to be broken up on the site of the accident.

Son now, this was all last year and I have heard nothing since. Now the IRN forum is more or less abandoned as regards any meaningful news so theres no point asking over there, but I was wondering if anyone here has any further details on the strange circumstances sorrounding the "incident" or if anyone has a link to or a PDF of the report so that the facts can be known.

Any link or infor would be great folks, thanks.

And a few Q's now,

1. As a rail accident, would this fall under the jurisdiction of the RAIB? It's not on their website.

2. Is or is not 146 back operational/under repair/broken up.

Speculation around accidents is not beneficial to the heritage rail scene and it think it is necessary to clear up the rumours that are going around and establish the facts.

In addition to the peculiar "incident" and the agressive silencing of it's discussion over on IRN (it's still taboo to mention it), the DCDR, has on numerous occasions been at the end of metal thiefs who've robbed roof coverings, and according to a guy who told me what he heard from someone who he knows who used to work there, stripped a locos traction motors of copper. Surely they would improve security after the second or third time. TBH what ever is going on up there, from where I'm sitting, it smacks of incompetence and complacency. Whatever or whoever is the cause of the bizzare censoring of IRN by the ITG and the DCDR must be one of the strangest things i've seen in heritage railways so far. They still refuse to make a statement even when I told the IRN webmaster that it was required a few weeks ago, I got no reply.

flyingsnail · 26-06-2012 4:03pm

Bonus_Pack wrote: »

Last year I was over on IRN and in September, there was an "incident" invoving 146. There was some damage but it was claimed to be repairable. There seemed to have been speculation sorrounding the "incident" that claimed it was a result of some "scandalous" activiy. Some posts were deleted which hinted at unauthorised persons gaining access to the cab of the running loco and others which speculated that the crash could potentially be the result of some deliberate action by someone who may or may not be connected to the DCDR. However, I couldn't get any more information as they have been very tight lipped about it over on IRN who pretty much banned the topic from discussion and said that there would be a full report issued by the DCDR in due course.

Now, I thought that if it were a straight forward accident there would have been no need for the whole thing to be shrouded in secrecy and it was also discouraged for members to discuss the level of damage. Some were saying that 146 was a total write off and damaged to the extent that it would have to be broken up on the site of the accident.

Son now, this was all last year and I have heard nothing since. Now the IRN forum is more or less abandoned as regards any meaningful news so theres no point asking over there, but I was wondering if anyone here has any further details on the strange circumstances sorrounding the "incident" or if anyone has a link to or a PDF of the report so that the facts can be known.

Any link or infor would be great folks, thanks.

And a few Q's now,

1. As a rail accident, would this fall under the jurisdiction of the RAIB? It's not on their website.

2. Is or is not 146 back operational/under repair/broken up.

Speculation around accidents is not beneficial to the heritage rail scene and it think it is necessary to clear up the rumours that are going around and establish the facts.

In addition to the peculiar "incident" and the agressive silencing of it's discussion over on IRN (it's still taboo to mention it), the DCDR, has on numerous occasions been at the end of metal thiefs who've robbed roof coverings, and according to a guy who told me what he heard from someone who he knows who used to work there, stripped a locos traction motors of copper. Surely they would improve security after the second or third time. TBH what ever is going on up there, from where I'm sitting, it smacks of incompetence and complacency. Whatever or whoever is the cause of the bizzare censoring of IRN by the ITG and the DCDR must be one of the strangest things i've seen in heritage railways so far. They still refuse to make a statement even when I told the IRN webmaster that it was required a few weeks ago, I got no reply.

A lot of purely speculative posts were deleted. Speculation about what and how it happened is no good to anybody.
There is a short statement by the DCDR

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/sreply/50990/DCDR-Latest#.T-nct_WuW68
The matter referred to involved a shunting mishap on a non-passenger line on the DCDR system, and with a non-passenger train, i.e. a light engine. Following this, the DCDR reported the matter through the relevant correct operational procedures to the statutory bodies concerned. Their response was that (a) they were satisfied with the DCDR report; (b) no remedial action of any sort is needed, as nobody was injured. That's it.

DCDR is currently involved, as I outlined in a longer post the other day, in reviewing a number of operational issues which are unrelated and which pre-date this incident. With regard to 146 itself, the loco is not owned by the DCDR, therefore it would be inappropriate for the DCDR to comment with regard to the actual loco. As griffin.garaiste suggests above, that's nobody's business but the management and membership of the ITG.

As an aside, it may be of interest to some readers that there has been a long standing, and mutually beneficial, arrangement between ITG and DCDR to the effect that ITG can store some of their locos on the DCDR (space permitting!) and in return they may be operated by the DCDR. And long may it last!

A detailed account of what happened was set to the ITG membership in a news letter. If you want to know what happened why not become a member and ask them. Work on 146 is ongoing and it certainly will not be scrapped.

26-06-2012 5:27pm

I've seen the damage to 146 and it certainly wasn't "scrap on site" bad. Work is ongoing and things are looking quite good.

Losty Dublin · 26-06-2012 5:50pm

I saw 146 a few weeks ago and I also had the luxury of speaking to a ITG member and the loco will return to traffic. The question of when is a matter of time and resources to hand, sin steal eile when it comes to preservation of any genre.

To answer one point, the RIAB wasn't called in as Downpatrick is in the UK and not covered by Irish law.

goingnowhere · 26-06-2012 6:09pm

I think you will find the RAIB have full jurisdiction, given they are the UK accident investigators, http://www.raib.gov.uk/

The RAIU have no jurisdiction on Downpatrick, but would have jurisdiction (of a sort) if an Enterprise train operated by IE or NIR had an incident in Northern Ireland, in fact the RAIB could delegate them full responsibility if the incident happened just over the border.

Losty Dublin · 26-06-2012 6:44pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

I think you will find the RAIB have full jurisdiction, given they are the UK accident investigators, http://www.raib.gov.uk/

The RAIU have no jurisdiction on Downpatrick, but would have jurisdiction (of a sort) if an Enterprise train operated by IE or NIR had an incident in Northern Ireland, in fact the RAIB could delegate them full responsibility if the incident happened just over the border.

I misread that acronym, sorry; you are correct.

Cookie_Monster · 26-06-2012 8:47pm

I'll see if I can find the journal with the detail but essentially it was a shunting accident and one cab end was damaged above the frame. Requires just some metal sheeting replaced, no other serious damage as far as I remember. There's a pic of the cab stripped down and the damaged sections cut out floating around somewhere.

Bonus_Pack · 27-06-2012 8:24am

goingnowhere wrote: »

I think you will find the RAIB have full jurisdiction, given they are the UK accident investigators, http://www.raib.gov.uk/

The RAIU have no jurisdiction on Downpatrick, but would have jurisdiction (of a sort) if an Enterprise train operated by IE or NIR had an incident in Northern Ireland, in fact the RAIB could delegate them full responsibility if the incident happened just over the border.

If you read my post, you would see that I did say RAIB niot RAIU. I asked was it in their jurisdiction because it was a heritage railway, not a commercial one, NOT because I thought the RAIU would have jurisdiction.

Anyway if it was a simple straightforward accident, why not just come out and say it and make a statment. I recently told the webmasters at IRN that whoever knows something must come out with it and I got no reply.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

To answer one point, the RIAB wasn't called in as Downpatrick is in the UK and not covered by Irish law.

RAIB is a UK body. www.raib.gov.uk. That's what I found bizzare about the accident report not being on their website. From reading the site they obviously do deal with heritage railways but there's no mention of DCDR. Is there a separate body for dealing with accidents in NI.

Hungerford · 27-06-2012 8:44am

Bonus_Pack wrote: »

That's what I found bizzare about the accident report not being on their website. From reading the site they obviously do deal with heritage railways but there's no mention of DCDR. Is there a separate body for dealing with accidents in NI.

No, there isn't. I think that the Downpatrick incident might not have been notifiable if it was just a shunting accident. Not everything has to be informed to the RAIB, only incidents of a certain level of seriousness IIRC.

Bonus_Pack · 27-06-2012 8:54am

Notifiable immediately

3)(between rolling stock), 1(5)(buffer stops) Collisions between trains or trams on running lines, or with buffer stops or other automatic stop devices, other than in a siding, which cause damage to the vehicles involved.

So was it in a siding then?

Notifiable within 3 days

Accidents or incidents which could have lead to deaths or serious injuries or 2m euros worth of damage to trains, infrastructure or environment, but did not do so. If in doubt notify.

According to this I think it shoudl have been notifed as it could potentially have caused injury or death.

corktina · 27-06-2012 9:01am

It was stated earlier that it was reported

LXFlyer · 27-06-2012 9:32am

Bonus_Pack wrote: »

Anyway if it was a simple straightforward accident, why not just come out and say it and make a statment. I recently told the webmasters at IRN that whoever knows something must come out with it and I got no reply.

I'm not quite sure why you expect them to get involved? Surely you should be contacting the parties involved directly - i.e. the ITG or DCDR of you're looking for an update?

From reading the thread you mentioned on IRN I get the impression they did not want it descending the way the Mystery Train thread has here or potentially litigious posts being made, and hence deleted the speculative posts.

LXFlyer · 27-06-2012 10:05am

Are they? Never seen any evidence of that tbh.

flyingsnail · 27-06-2012 10:13am

Bonus_Pack wrote: »

Notifiable immediately
So was it in a siding then?

Notifiable within 3 days

According to this I think it shoudl have been notifed as it could potentially have caused injury or death.

From the statement in my first post

Following this, the DCDR reported the matter through the relevant correct operational procedures to the statutory bodies concerned. Their response was that (a) they were satisfied with the DCDR report; (b) no remedial action of any sort is needed, as nobody was injured. That's it.

Bonus_Pack wrote: »

Shure they're all the one at the end of the day.

No they are not. If you want an official statement you will have to contact the ITG as they are they only ones who can give it to you.

Bonus_Pack · 27-06-2012 10:47am

flyingsnail wrote: »

From the statement in my first post
No they are not. If you want an official statement you will have to contact the ITG as they are they only ones who can give it to you.

Anyway, went and phoned ITG and I bought copy of the Irish Mail and its on its way as we speak. I'll post up the full detials when it arrives.

cmore123 · 27-06-2012 7:23pm

I saw it recently. It is now totally fixed up and has been out on trial runs. The cab is complet, and also the controls etc etc. Only thing missing is floor covering and finishing coats of paint. Picking up on a few issues raised abovbe (but not all), the DCDR statement said it was a non passenger operation. It was not a "joyride" type thing as the more outlandish rumours and conspiracy theorists thought - it was a shunting move out the south line. I can't wait to see it up and running again, always liked those engines. the reason they kept quiet about it was to discourage "rubber-neckers" going to have a look at it and potentially interfere.

ard_mhacha · 27-06-2012 7:36pm

In addition to the peculiar "incident" and the agressive silencing of it's discussion over on IRN (it's still taboo to mention it), the DCDR, has on numerous occasions been at the end of metal thiefs who've robbed roof coverings, and according to a guy who told me what he heard from someone who he knows who used to work there, stripped a locos traction motors of copper. Surely they would improve security after the second or third time. TBH what ever is going on up there, from where I'm sitting, it smacks of incompetence and complacency

Reports of metal theft at DCDR are grossly inaccurate. Only two locomotives at DCDR have traction motors - A39 and 146. I have seem both of them move under their own power in the last month.

cmore123 · 27-06-2012 7:38pm

.... and neither has ever had traction motors taken.

Rud · 27-06-2012 11:27pm

cmore123 wrote: »

I saw it recently. It is now totally fixed up and has been out on trial runs. The cab is complet, and also the controls etc etc. Only thing missing is floor covering and finishing coats of paint. .

Great stuff.It's a lovely loco

Bonus_Pack · 28-06-2012 8:14am

I'm glad to hear that it has been brought back into service. I must get myself up there to see it some time this summer.

the reason they kept quiet about it was to discourage "rubber-neckers" going to have a look at it and potentially interfere

In fairness, they probably should have come out and said this as their lack of comment only gives impetus to wild speculation and over the top rumours.

shamwari · 28-06-2012 12:39pm

Bonus_Pack wrote: »

In fairness, they probably should have come out and said this as their lack of comment only gives impetus to wild speculation and over the top rumours.

Why should they? They have enough on their hands dealing with the facts of the matter than having to debunk the fanciful rumours of those who peddle same and ought to know better.

13-07-2012 11:44pm

Posted on the DCDR Facebook page today.

Losty Dublin · 14-07-2012 12:00am

And she is in traffic again, no less.

Accident involving 146 at the DCDR

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