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United States of Europe, or else disintegration of the Euro

24

Comments

  • #32
    bee_keeper
    Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭bee_keeper


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    If you haven't noticed, Spain is on the brink of a bail out followed by Italy.

    These countries are too big to bail out.

    The only way the euro can surive is complete political and fiscal unity. These cannot happen as:

    1. They would require mutiple changes to existing treaties with resultant referenda across the EU.
    2. They would require a 'super' treaty, again resulting in referenda across the EU.
    3. It would take years in the planning. Years we don't have.
    4. The Germans are severly constrained by their consitution and polls show that Germans do not want any more integration or power to go over to Brussels.

    Over to you.


    the germans are the ones pushing for a USE , brussells is nothing but a proxy for berlin


  • #33
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I am 100% decided on leaving this country if Germany gets its way on ceding more sovereignty to the EU. This is supposed to be a democracy, and an independent republic. :(

    Sorry but the people had their say and supported the German led policies. Though the amount of complaining about Merkel looking for us and others to be fiscally prudent was pretty ridiculous. You'd think balancing the books was crazy talk... though the way we have run things here maybe it was.
    This is a democracy and the people choose, and they'll choose again... you don't seem to like democracy when it's not agreeing with you.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Do you think the people would accept it? Honestly? The backlash against EU centralization seems to be growing day by day, all you have to do is looks at newspapers and opinion pieces from around Europe to see that.

    It's funny, ever since the Conservatives got elected in the UK I have heard a lot about how the the UK would need to renegotiate the powers it is sharing with the EU. After more than two years I still can't figure out what exactly they want to renegotiate, they're just some nice buzz words.
    Many people that come in here complaining about the EU usually show a very poor understand of how it functions. In a time of crisis people will look around to see who they can blame but once things settle down I expect the popularity of the EU to rise.
    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    No, we would need to have referenda not just in ireland but across the EU.

    Why? We seem to have the idea in this country that having the public vote on things that the majority are fairly ill-informed on is a good idea and will deliver the best results.
    bee_keeper wrote: »
    the germans are the ones pushing for a USE , brussells is nothing but a proxy for berlin

    The Germans don't want to be on the hook for helping many other countries out financially, seem a very sensible approach.


  • #34
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    The Greek Finance minister has just resigned for illness reasons. Apparently he collapsed during the election results process.

    Meanwhile the newly installed Greek PM has just had eye surgery and won't be attending the EU summit. He won't be able to travel for two months.

    You couldn't make this up really...could you?

    More grist to the mill of the market.


  • #35
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    What does Germany gain from making other eurozone countries poor. 40% of Germany's exports are to the eurozone, if they make the eurozone countries bankrupt and poor there be less people buying audi cars and miele washing machines. A rich, prosperous eurozone is good for German exports and their economy whereas a poor, bankrupt eurozone will kill the German economy.

    They stand to get a complete return on the money lent out initially at stupidly low interest rates plus interest. The IMF/EU/ECB are licking their chops at this prospect. Ireland is a small player in the total EU market.

    According to the IMF published statistics of nominal GDP for 2011, Ireland stands at position 44, below Egypt. I love this country, but I am under no illusion about how unimportant we are in terms of global expenditure.

    This supports my argument, that the Germans can afford to treat us like ****, because we really don't have any sway in this. We stand to lose everything by not following through. The UK could weather the effects of telling Germany to suck it, Ireland can't do that in our present situation.

    It's a serious case of schoolyard bullies picking on the weaker kids, because standing up to bigger kids isn't as cowardly. I don't want legal aliens dictating our economic policy, no matter how incompetant our own Government is. It goes against the concepts of National Sovereignty.


  • #36
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    meglome wrote: »
    They are not quite similar. Apples and Oranges may both be fruit but they are quite different. I'm not sure how you can 'lure prospective voters in'. If there are bad results from what people voted for they can always vote for something else. Just like Fianna Fail getting a drubbing in the last election. What bad things have the EU lured us into?

    They are both derived from the same generic class though. A stem cell is differentiated into various types, yet these new types still exhibit some basic attributes inherient in the base type. The primary attributes that make up the EU as a trap are that:

    (a) No exit mechanism exists from the Eurozone, barring a complete economic meltdown. This is intentional, play by our rules or you will suffer
    (b) These people are completely unaccountable to the citizens of this country, as a result of (1) being entirely unelected (2) immunity from prosecution in the case of the ESM.

    USSR was wholly unelected, so too is the EU. It's basic structure is more akin to a dictatorship than a democracy, which they try to pass it off as. There is nothing democratic about the European Union.
    meglome wrote: »
    As was said above as an export nation it's in Germany's interests for the whole of the EU to be very successful. They want to sell us more of their goods. Your point makes no sense.

    I call bull on this one. Your argument is fallacious. Check the statistics about Ireland and it's tiny contributions to the EU. Ireland is not a major player in the EU, we are merely on the fringes. For dubious reasons.
    meglome wrote: »
    Your conspiracy falls down with even basic analysis.

    ad hominem argument. If you won't engage with the points I am making and merely cry "conspiracy". It's no conspiracy when I state the EU is an undemocratic Institution. There have been many publications about it's evils in the mainstream press might I add, in particular, the UK and Hungary, who view it as a constant threat to their own laws.

    Infact, the Hungarian Prime Minister recently told reporters at a press conference that they won't live by "dictates of foreigners", a reference to the European Union. From such a mainstream political figure might I add. No conspiracy here in their distrust of EU politicians.

    He also had the balls to state the following “Hungarians write their own constitution and don’t need unrequested help from foreigners who wish to direct our hands,”

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-15/hungary-won-t-live-by-dictates-of-foreigners-orban-says


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  • #37
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    pseudofax wrote: »
    They stand to get a complete return on the money lent out initially at stupidly low interest rates plus interest. The IMF/EU/ECB are licking their chops at this prospect. Ireland is a small player in the total EU market.

    As I understand it we're getting the money at the rates the Germans borrow it at. So where's the profit?
    pseudofax wrote: »
    They are both derived from the same generic class though. A stem cell is differentiated into various types, yet these new types still exhibit some basic attributes inherient in the base type. The primary attributes that make up the EU as a trap are that:

    The reason I said apples and oranges is there are some surface similarities between the USSR and the EU, just like there are with apples and oranges. However the USSR and the EU are vastly different in almost any area you choose to compare. It's really is a total nonsense to compare people being forced at gunpoint to the EU.
    pseudofax wrote: »
    (a) No exit mechanism exists from the Eurozone, barring a complete economic meltdown. This is intentional, play by our rules or you will suffer
    (b) These people are completely unaccountable to the citizens of this country, as a result of (1) being entirely unelected (2) immunity from prosecution in the case of the ESM.

    A. There was no mechanism to leave the EU until the Lisbon treaty either. And?
    B. The EU is more accountable than our own government. And can we please stop with the rubbish that the ESM has immunity. They are only immune in that they carry out their jobs within their frame of reference. If they do anything else they have no immunity. Only done so they can carry out there jobs across different nations with different laws.
    pseudofax wrote: »
    USSR was wholly unelected, so too is the EU. It's basic structure is more akin to a dictatorship than a democracy, which they try to pass it off as. There is nothing democratic about the European Union.

    What? Sorry but the decision makers in EU are either directly elected by the people of Europe or by the democratically elected governments of Europe. You'll need to explain how that isn't democratic. Do you have any idea how the EU works?
    pseudofax wrote: »
    I call bull on this one. Your argument is fallacious. Check the statistics about Ireland and it's tiny contributions to the EU. Ireland is not a major player in the EU, we are merely on the fringes. For dubious reasons.

    The Germans are an export nation, they are successful if they export a large volume of goods. If they export less goods because other EU countries are suffering they are less successful. It's pretty simple. Where did I suggest Ireland was anything but a small player?
    pseudofax wrote: »
    ad hominem argument. If you won't engage with the points I am making and merely cry "conspiracy". It's no conspiracy when I state the EU is an undemocratic Institution. There have been many publications about it's evils in the mainstream press might I add, in particular, the UK and Hungary, who view it as a constant threat to their own laws.

    Sorry but did I call you anything? I said your point was nonsense I didn't suggest anything whatsoever about you. Perhaps you should look up what an ad hominem argument is.
    You're trying to say that the USSR and the EU are similar but have provided no proof for that whatsoever. Just stating the EU is undemocratic doesn't make it so. What evils should we look out for?
    pseudofax wrote: »
    Infact, the Hungarian Prime Minister recently told reporters at a press conference that they won't live by "dictates of foreigners", a reference to the European Union. From such a mainstream political figure might I add. No conspiracy here in their distrust of EU politicians.

    He also had the balls to state the following “Hungarians write their own constitution and don’t need unrequested help from foreigners who wish to direct our hands,”

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-15/hungary-won-t-live-by-dictates-of-foreigners-orban-says

    The Hungarian government? Perhaps you've missed some of the things they've been up to.
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/25/hungary-new-laws-curb-media-freedom


  • #38
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Finnbar01 wrote: »

    No, we would need to have referenda not just in ireland but across the EU.
    Other than the Constitution Referendum in 2005, can you tell me one other European country that requires referenda for constitutional amendments?

    We can't have a federal EU without fiscal and political unity. Those things will take years in the making.
    We can have a more federal EU with simply banking union which could take a year.

    AFAIK, the German consitution cannot not be easily changed like our own.
    Covered this previously myself actually:
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »

    The only difference in other countries is that they are either not bound by the same problems or conflicts in their constitution or that the government is not bound by such strict constitutional difficulties. For example, in Germany (a constitution which you must remember is only 63ish years old) the process for making amendments is contained in Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Artikel 79:
    (1) Das Grundgesetz kann nur durch ein Gesetz geändert werden, das den Wortlaut des Grundgesetzes ausdrücklich ändert oder ergänzt. Bei völkerrechtlichen Verträgen, die eine Friedensregelung, die Vorbereitung
    einer Friedensregelung oder den Abbau einer besatzungsrechtlichen Ordnung zum Gegenstand haben oder der Verteidigung der Bundesrepublik zu dienen bestimmt sind, genügt zur Klarstellung, daß die Bestimmungen des Grundgesetzes dem Abschluß und dem Inkraftsetzen der Verträge nicht entgegenstehen, eine Ergänzung des Wortlautes des Grundgesetzes, die sich auf diese Klarstellung beschränkt.

    (2) Ein solches Gesetz bedarf der Zustimmung von zwei Dritteln der Mitglieder des Bundestages und zwei Dritteln der Stimmen des Bundesrates.

    (3) Eine Änderung dieses Grundgesetzes, durch welche die Gliederung des Bundes in Länder, die grundsätzliche Mitwirkung der Länder bei der Gesetzgebung oder die in den Artikeln 1 und 20 niedergelegten Grundsätze
    berührt werden, ist unzulässig.

    It is clear, there must be an absolute two-thirds majority of the Bundestag and simple two-thirds majority of the Bundesrat to amend the constitution.
    Also, you need to take into mind what needs to happen for a federalised EU. We would need to allow the Germans to control our budgets and adopt reforms at bequest of the Germans. Granted, we would get that through in Ireland. But in the likes of France, Greece and Italy? Forget it.
    No we wouldn't... as I just said, it would work the same way as it does in the USA; there is no control of budgets and reforms outside of each state.


  • #39
    bee_keeper
    Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭bee_keeper


    meglome wrote: »
    Sorry but the people had their say and supported the German led policies. Though the amount of complaining about Merkel looking for us and others to be fiscally prudent was pretty ridiculous. You'd think balancing the books was crazy talk... though the way we have run things here maybe it was.
    This is a democracy and the people choose, and they'll choose again... you don't seem to like democracy when it's not agreeing with you.



    It's funny, ever since the Conservatives got elected in the UK I have heard a lot about how the the UK would need to renegotiate the powers it is sharing with the EU. After more than two years I still can't figure out what exactly they want to renegotiate, they're just some nice buzz words.
    Many people that come in here complaining about the EU usually show a very poor understand of how it functions. In a time of crisis people will look around to see who they can blame but once things settle down I expect the popularity of the EU to rise.



    Why? We seem to have the idea in this country that having the public vote on things that the majority are fairly ill-informed on is a good idea and will deliver the best results.



    The Germans don't want to be on the hook for helping many other countries out financially, seem a very sensible approach.


    not while those countries still control their own budgetary policy


  • #40
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    bee_keeper wrote: »
    not while those countries still control their own budgetary policy
    There is never going to be a shift in budgetary control... saying otherwise is completely unfounded and stupid.


  • #41
    Kumejima
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭Kumejima


    From todays Guardian on the new proposals to save the Eurozone

    "The Guardian's Europe editor, Ian Traynor, has got hold of a copy of the gang of four's master plan for the future of Europe and the Euro.

    Ian says the seven-page document from the four presidents - Herman Van Rompuy of the European Council, Mario Draghi of ECB, Jose Manuel Barroso of the European commission, and Jean-Claude Juncker of 17-country Eurogroup - details a 10-year plan based on 4 "building blocks" - banking union, fiscal union, economic union, political union."

    So the plan is full political, economic,fiscal and banking union within 10 years.
    Anyone care to comment?


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  • #42
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Kumejima wrote: »
    From todays Guardian on the new proposals to save the Eurozone

    "The Guardian's Europe editor, Ian Traynor, has got hold of a copy of the gang of four's master plan for the future of Europe and the Euro.

    Ian says the seven-page document from the four presidents - Herman Van Rompuy of the European Council, Mario Draghi of ECB, Jose Manuel Barroso of the European commission, and Jean-Claude Juncker of 17-country Eurogroup - details a 10-year plan based on 4 "building blocks" - banking union, fiscal union, economic union, political union."

    So the plan is full political, economic,fiscal and banking union within 10 years.
    Anyone care to comment?

    Since the EU is all about further integration it's no surprise. Personally I don't get too excited about these things, if we want this in the future we'll vote yes for it and if we don't we'll vote no.

    This is the full article... http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/26/european-leaders-plan-save-eurozone

    And the document... https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/131201.pdf


  • #43
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    meglome wrote: »
    Since the EU is all about further integration it's no surprise. Personally I don't get too excited about these things, if we want this in the future we'll vote yes for it and if we don't we'll vote no.

    This is the full article... http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/26/european-leaders-plan-save-eurozone

    And the document... https://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/131201.pdf

    Do you believe it's an inherently good idea to hand over fiscal matters to foreigners? At least in the USA, the Federal Government consists at the upper levels of American Citizens. There is no identity known as European, European is a geographical term, not a cultural one, as the politicians in the EU would lead you to believe. You are not European. It does not exist. It's like the easter bunny. They made it up.


  • #44
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Do you believe it's an inherently good idea to hand over fiscal matters to foreigners? At least in the USA, the Federal Government consists at the upper levels of American Citizens. There is no identity known as European, European is a geographical term, not a cultural one, as the politicians in the EU would lead you to believe. You are not European. It does not exist. It's like the easter bunny. They made it up.

    Depends on what you mean by 'hand over'. No one is saying that the EU would have control over national budgets, just that they would have some oversight. Given how populist politics works here I welcome that.


  • #45
    dohste
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 ✭dohste


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Do you believe it's an inherently good idea to hand over fiscal matters to foreigners? At least in the USA, the Federal Government consists at the upper levels of American Citizens. There is no identity known as European, European is a geographical term, not a cultural one, as the politicians in the EU would lead you to believe. You are not European. It does not exist. It's like the easter bunny. They made it up.

    Have to completely disagree with you regarding the European identity and being European. I'm Irish and also consider myself European. And as someone who has lived for over three years in different parts of Europe and collaborates and works with people right across Europe, and also been to areas outside of Europe, let me assure you there is a definite cultural similarity shared between Europeans compared to others further East.

    Individually, my German, Italian, Swedish, French and other friends and colleagues are identical, culturally, to my Irish friends and colleagues. On a whole there is a slightly higher number of German's that conform to the German stereotype than there are Irish, and more Irish conforming to the Irish stereotype than French etc, but that's about it.


  • #46
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Kumejima wrote: »
    From todays Guardian on the new proposals to save the Eurozone

    "The Guardian's Europe editor, Ian Traynor, has got hold of a copy of the gang of four's master plan for the future of Europe and the Euro.

    Ian says the seven-page document from the four presidents - Herman Van Rompuy of the European Council, Mario Draghi of ECB, Jose Manuel Barroso of the European commission, and Jean-Claude Juncker of 17-country Eurogroup - details a 10-year plan based on 4 "building blocks" - banking union, fiscal union, economic union, political union."

    So the plan is full political, economic,fiscal and banking union within 10 years.
    Anyone care to comment?

    Slightly more accurately, the four building blocks are:
    1. An integrated financial framework to ensure financial stability in particular in the euro area and minimise the cost of bank failures to European citizens. Such a framework elevates responsibility for supervision to the European level, and provides for common mechanisms to resolve banks and guarantee customer deposits.
    2. An integrated budgetary framework to ensure sound fiscal policy making at the national and European levels, encompassing coordination, joint decision-making, greater enforcement and commensurate steps towards common debt issuance. This framework could include also different forms of fiscal solidarity.
    3. An integrated economic policy framework which has sufficient mechanisms to ensure that national and European policies are in place that promote sustainable growth, employment and competitiveness, and are compatible with the smooth functioning of EMU.
    4. Ensuring the necessary democratic legitimacy and accountability of decision-making within the EMU, based on the joint exercise of sovereignty for common policies and solidarity.

    Referring to those as "banking union, fiscal union, economic union, political union" is taking quite a long jump further in implication than the document would appear to have.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #47
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    dohste wrote: »
    Have to completely disagree with you regarding the European identity and being European. I'm Irish and also consider myself European. And as someone who has lived for over three years in different parts of Europe and collaborates and works with people right across Europe, and also been to areas outside of Europe, let me assure you there is a definite cultural similarity shared between Europeans compared to others further East.

    Individually, my German, Italian, Swedish, French and other friends and colleagues are identical, culturally, to my Irish friends and colleagues. On a whole there is a slightly higher number of German's that conform to the German stereotype than there are Irish, and more Irish conforming to the Irish stereotype than French etc, but that's about it.

    Just as well you don't make the laws so. I don't care how foolish you might be to suggest an Irish person is culturally similar to a war waging German, but thankfully Irish law states that anybody who is not an Irish or British Citizen is regarded as an Alien in this country, no matter where in the EU they come from. It is 100% legal to treat EEA citizens as foreigners in this country. They don't have permanent residency here.

    It's attitudes like this that have the country in the mess we are in. Anybody who supports widespread European Integration at the expense of the Constitution of their own country is nothing more than a traitor. Hand in your Irish passport please, you are selling our country out to Franco-German-Belgians.

    I repeat my statement in case you didn't get it the first time. There is no statutory law in existence providing for the nationality known as "European". Europe isn't a country, it's a continent. I will be popping the champagne when this diasaster of a "union" collapses, like the old soviet union eventually did:)


  • #48
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Just as well you don't make the laws so. I don't care how foolish you might be to suggest an Irish person is culturally similar to a war waging German, but thankfully Irish law states that anybody who is not an Irish or British Citizen is regarded as an Alien in this country, no matter where in the EU they come from. It is 100% legal to treat EEA citizens as foreigners in this country. They don't have permanent residency here.

    It's attitudes like this that have the country in the mess we are in. Anybody who supports widespread European Integration at the expense of the Constitution of their own country is nothing more than a traitor. Hand in your Irish passport please, you are selling our country out to Franco-German-Belgians.

    I repeat my statement in case you didn't get it the first time. There is no statutory law in existence providing for the nationality known as "European". Europe isn't a country, it's a continent. I will be popping the champagne when this diasaster of a "union" collapses, like the old soviet union eventually did:)

    Until such time, I hope you enjoy being a member of the club :)


  • #49
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Dave! wrote: »
    Until such time, I hope you enjoy being a member of the club :)

    What club? I don't even live here anymore. I refuse to pay tax I didn't incur to Foreigners. They are going to cause another world war if they can't get off their arses and sort this gigantic mess out. The next war will be over food and the economy. Mark my words.


  • #50
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Just as well you don't make the laws so. I don't care how foolish you might be to suggest an Irish person is culturally similar to a war waging German, but thankfully Irish law states that anybody who is not an Irish or British Citizen is regarded as an Alien in this country, no matter where in the EU they come from. It is 100% legal to treat EEA citizens as foreigners in this country. They don't have permanent residency here.
    pseudofax wrote: »
    What club? I don't even live here anymore. I refuse to pay tax I didn't incur to Foreigners. They are going to cause another world war if they can't get off their arses and sort this gigantic mess out. The next war will be over food and the economy. Mark my words.

    That's very interesting. You're happy it seems to call Germans 'War waging' even though the vast majority of them were not even alive when the last war finished almost 70 years ago. And you're also happy to bugger off and not take any responsibility for what we did here as a nation only recently. Double standards much.


  • #51
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    meglome wrote: »
    That's very interesting. You're happy it seems to call Germans 'War waging' even though the vast majority of them were not even alive when the last war finished almost 70 years ago. And you're also happy to bugger off and not take any responsibility for what we did here as a nation only recently. Double standards much.

    Point is most of these people were convicted at Nuremberg for their attrocities. A convicted criminal is still a criminal, no longer how time has passed. The German nation has been convicted/attributed in the past of some of the most evil attrocities in human history. They can't just shake it off and pretend it didn't happen. Mass Genocide was commited across the board in this country. This is simply a fact.

    I buggered off because I can't stand to put up with any more of this petty foreign led ****e. I snapped one day and just said to myself "my country is inhabited by traitors and morons". For the sake of my own sanity, I left. No double standard there. Ireland has been sold out to the Troika. It's not my country anymore, it's the Germans.

    Not to mention the for European Commissioner for Justice Jacques Barrot was convicted for embezzlement back in the year 2000. Great, we have a guy who managed the highest justice department in the EU who was himself convicted for criminal fraud. You could not make this stuff up.


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  • #52
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Point is most of these people were convicted at Nuremberg for their attrocities. A convicted criminal is still a criminal, no longer how time has passed. The German nation has been convicted/attributed in the past of some of the most evil attrocities in human history. They can't just shake it off and pretend it didn't happen. Mass Genocide was commited across the board in this country. This is simply a fact.

    Em I think you'll find that the people convicted at Nuremberg are long dead. Are any of them still alive? A dead criminal is as dead as anyone can be. How far should we go back with blaming people on what their dead ancestors did? I suggest you go through your history books and you'll see a massive list of atrocities carried out since recorded time by all sorts of nations/peoples. You may have some trouble finding a nation that hasn't done it, sometime, somewhere.
    pseudofax wrote: »
    I buggered off because I can't stand to put up with any more of this petty foreign led ****e. I snapped one day and just said to myself "my country is inhabited by traitors and morons". For the sake of my own sanity, I left. No double standard there. Ireland has been sold out to the Troika. It's not my country anymore, it's the Germans.

    I actually wanted to laugh here. What 'petty foreign led ****e' are we talking about? I honestly haven't seen it. Of sure we're in a financial mess but we did that to ourselves unfortunately. How exactly do the Germans own the country?
    Interestingly it was anger in Germany at what 'foreigners' had done to them in World War I that led to World War II.
    pseudofax wrote: »
    Not to mention the for European Commissioner for Justice Jacques Barrot was convicted for embezzlement back in the year 2000. Great, we have a guy who managed the highest justice department in the EU who was himself convicted for criminal fraud. You could not make this stuff up.

    Yes he was convicted of fraud but the French gave him an amnesty in 2000 so he has no conviction. He was Commissioner for Justice and Home Affairs between 2008 and 2010.
    He was one of many politicians from all major parties who got into trouble for illicit funding dating back to a period before 1991, when France had no law regulating campaign financing.


  • #53
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    meglome wrote: »
    Em I think you'll find that the people convicted at Nuremberg are long dead. Are any of them still alive? A dead criminal is as dead as anyone can be. How far should we go back with blaming people on what their dead ancestors did? I suggest you go through your history books and you'll see a massive list of atrocities carried out since recorded time by all sorts of nations/peoples. You may have some trouble finding a nation that hasn't done it, sometime, somewhere.

    Ok, you have me here. I have studied World War 2 in some detail, and most of what happened should shock anybody profoundly. It's still a very large sore spot for their nation. I think it's illegal to even talk about the subject or wear nazi symbols in public. Distasteful, but isn't free speech supposed to be enshrined in the German Constitution?
    meglome wrote: »
    I actually wanted to laugh here. What 'petty foreign led ****e' are we talking about? I honestly haven't seen it. Of sure we're in a financial mess but we did that to ourselves unfortunately. How exactly do the Germans own the country?
    Interestingly it was anger in Germany at what 'foreigners' had done to them in World War I that led to World War II.

    These "bailouts" and socialisation of private losses incurred by people who should have ask for security on the lending. Yes, our idiot Politicians are largely to blame(mostly to blame actually), but Germany and the ECB planted the seed by introducing the euro initially at stupidly low interest rates with their somewhat dodgy keynesian economics.

    It does not take a genius to figure out that the level of cheap credit poisened this country for too long, leading to a level of borrowing never seen before in this country.

    As we can't control the interest rate, we could not modify our currency interest rates to compensate for idiots borrowing far too many cheap bad loans and slow the bubble down before a crash, as suddenly, the dangerous amounts of money were being doled out by a foreign entity, the ECB.

    The Germans must of known we could not pay this money back, yet they were quite happy to lend inane amounts to a tiny island which could not have possibly ever paid those loans back under normal economic conditions. Maybe they wanted to get the country in a bailout situation?
    meglome wrote: »
    Yes he was convicted of fraud but the French gave him an amnesty in 2000 so he has no conviction. He was Commissioner for Justice and Home Affairs between 2008 and 2010.

    Was this "amesty" granted by a head of state? Because if he didn't recieve a pardon from the president of his country, he is still a convicted criminal in my eyes. I don't want convicted criminals running my country.


  • #54
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Ok, you have me here. I have studied World War 2 in some detail, and most of what happened should shock anybody profoundly. It's still a very large sore spot for their nation. I think it's illegal to even talk about the subject or wear nazi symbols in public. Distasteful, but isn't free speech supposed to be enshrined in the German Constitution?
    Incorrect. The Germans acknowledge the misdeeds of the Third Reich and teach WWII history and Nazi history in schools. It is not illegal to discuss WWII, Nazi Party or Hitler in Germany. It is illegal to preach Nazi philosophy, distribute Nazi materials, sing Nazi songs, display Nazi symbols (with the exception of historical teachings and some religious considerations) or deny the holocaust. It is also against the rules in most educational organisations to display on clothing or your person the numbers "18" and "88" being "AH" or "HH" in the alphabet.

    In relation to "free speech"; as in all European countries and most Western Countries, freedom of expression is not an absolute right.
    In Germany it is contained in Article 5 of their Grundgesetz:
    [Freedom of expression, arts and sciences]
    (1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate
    his opinions in speech, writing and pictures, and
    to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible
    sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting
    by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed.
    There shall be no censorship.
    (2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general
    laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons,
    and in the right to personal honour.
    (3) Arts and sciences, research and teaching shall be free.
    The freedom of teaching shall not release any person from
    allegiance to the constitution.

    As you can see in Article 5(2), they are subject to provisions of general laws. Similarly to Ireland, Germany has laws against Volksverhetzung or, effectively what we deem Incitement to Hatred. A person is guilty of an offence contrary to the German Volksverhetzung laws if they:
    in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:
    1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
    2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population


    These "bailouts" and socialisation of private losses incurred by people who should have ask for security on the lending. Yes, our idiot Politicians are largely to blame(mostly to blame actually), but Germany and the ECB planted the seed by introducing the euro initially at stupidly low interest rates with their somewhat dodgy keynesian economics.
    Cheap credit wasn't the problem by itself. It was the perfect storm... very little security on loans combined with a credit and property bubble burst was by far a larger problem than low interest rates.
    It does not take a genius to figure out that the level of cheap credit poisened this country for too long, leading to a level of borrowing never seen before in this country.
    I think it takes slightly more than saying that to show actual connections between simple ECB policy and the property collapse.
    As we can't control the interest rate, we could not modify our currency interest rates to compensate for idiots borrowing far too many cheap bad loans and slow the bubble down before a crash, as suddenly, the dangerous amounts of money were being doled out by a foreign entity, the ECB.
    There is little to no evidence - in fact, perhaps evidence to the contrary - that this is the case and that if we were not in charge of our own interest rates that we would not have done the same if not worse.
    The Germans must of known we could not pay this money back, yet they were quite happy to lend inane amounts to a tiny island which could not have possibly ever paid those loans back under normal economic conditions. Maybe they wanted to get the country in a bailout situation?
    Ridiculous.

    Was this "amesty" granted by a head of state? Because if he didn't recieve a pardon from the president of his country, he is still a convicted criminal in my eyes. I don't want convicted criminals running my country.
    President Chirac granted it and it was considered by lawyers internationally whether he was required to disclose this; they concluded he was not.


  • #55
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Are we still on topic, or has this become a "why the EU is really the Fourth Reich" thread?

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #56
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Point taken, this is going a bit too OT. To address the title of the thread, United states of Europe, or disintegration of the Euro. Well, for a start, the United States of Europe is a fallicious concept, both a Federal state and a Unitary state share one common characteristic. The Government of each is comprised at the highest levels of non Aliens. With the "EU", we have a bizarre situation where Aliens are controlling and dictating our budget, not to mention making crazy eurocratic laws which tend to override our own Parlaiment.

    At least in the USSR, they were at least consisent by forcefully ensuring all nation states where fully integrated and composed of USSR citizens. With the EU, you have so many different economies with different cultures and vastly different economies, Integration can never truly happen unless they start resorting to Violence. For these reasons, you will never have a fully integrated Europe. It is simply impossible without resorting to Violence.

    You cannot have a fully integrated Europe when Foreigners are in the driving seat. It should be a friendly non dominent relationship, or else a Dictatorship like the USSR. There is no middle ground, though the Commission likes to pretend this delusional middle ground can exist. It cannot.


  • #57
    FullBeard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭FullBeard


    How horrible it must be to see the world as divided between Us and Aliens, Foreigners, and those who are not Us. It must be very distressing.


  • #58
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    FullBeard wrote: »
    How horrible it must be to see the world as divided between Us and Aliens, Foreigners, and those who are not Us. It must be very distressing.

    I didn't invent the terms. Irish Law is extremely clear on this issue. Under the Aliens Act 1935, anybody who isn't an Irish or British citizen is considered an Alien in this country. So why are Aliens who do not hold a right to live in this country, running this country?


  • #59
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    pseudofax wrote: »
    I didn't invent the terms. Irish Law is extremely clear on this issue. Under the Aliens Act 1935, anybody who isn't an Irish or British citizen is considered an Alien in this country. So why are Aliens who do not hold a right to live in this country, running this country?

    Who do you mean by Aliens? The EU or the Troika?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #60
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    The only people controlling our budget is our government. You also completely misunderstand the Aliens Act 1935


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  • #61
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    K-9 wrote: »
    Who do you mean by Aliens? The EU or the Troika?

    Both. Unless there are Irish citizens pulling the strings, it is entirely factual to state that foreign nationals are running our own country. I doubt many EU citizens outside of Ireland or indeed the faceless Troika hold Irish passports.


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