What if Assad is telling the truth?

plasmaguy · 13-06-2012 09:44PM

So you think Gadaffi should have been allowed demolish Benghazi instead and slaughter everyone who opposed him?

Eggy Baby! · 13-06-2012 11:00PM

plasmaguy wrote: »

So you think Gadaffi should have been allowed demolish Benghazi instead and slaughter everyone who opposed him?

That is not a relevant question. This is Syria.

I'm also sure the residents of Bani Walid and Tripoli enjoyed being shelled by the "righteous" rebels.

Thing is, if you are man who has been shot in the back and is slowly bleeding to death, I doubt it will matter whether or not you were murdered by rebels or by Assad's soldiers, whether that bullet was sent in the name of "freedom" or "tyranny". How do you explain the deaths caused by rebels, or the FSA, or the various militia groups? Are they "necessary" for Syria to be "free"? Or do you simply ignore them and my questions as it is convenient for you to do?

Its really useless if Syria is a "democratic" pile of rubble. Or a "democratic" whirlwind of sectarian violence. But of course you are an expert of military dynamics, who can know that a military operation is going to be flawless and result in regime change. You must realise that military force only destroys, it does not create- look at the sectarian/corrupt mess that Iraq turned out to be. Now the people there choose their corrupt oligarchs. Was it really worth all the hubbub, all the destruction to get rid of Saddam? Considering most of the sectarian and economic problems there were caused by the US in the first place but hey. Down the memory hole right?

Also, plasmaguy, who will execute this fantasy military intervention?

Unfortunately, governments lie pathologically. I heard yesterday the claims by Hillary the Pillory that the Russians were sending attack choppers, and then the Pentagon admitted they don't know if that was true. Wouldn't the Pentagon know first? Of course everyone lapped this up.

Red_Wolf · 14-06-2012 12:51AM

plasmaguy wrote: »

If it was a dictatorship that had widespread support fair enough, but it doesn't and like all dictatorships, it survives by pitting one group against another and when there is a chance of the dictatorship falling, the dictator arms one side and sets them against the other, which is exactly what Assad did.

The crimes of the FSA are miniscule in comparison to the monstrous crimes against humanity perpetrated by Assad.

Assad is is not supported but a majority of Syrians actually don't want him to go because of what could easily happen when he is gone.

I don't think Assad is in control of the army,his whole family are nuts one of his uncles shot one of their relatives (i don't remember who it was) and a brother is commanding a whole part of the army that has done disturbing things to the people.He is just the face the brains are hidden

cyberhog · 14-06-2012 01:46AM

Now that [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/world/middleeast/violence-in-syria-continues-as-protesters-killed.html?_r=1[/url]SA, Turkey, and Qatar[/url] are supplying the rebels with more serious weaponry it looks like Assad will respond with even stronger force.

As the Assad regime’s Syrian, Arab and Western enemies prepare to usher in a new stage in the bloody confrontation, the Syrian authorities have been mulling over their own plans for a comprehensive military showdown. The aim this time will not just be to prevent the creation of armed opposition concentrations or enclaves, but to “destroy all armed groups, irrespective of their nature or identity.”
...

It would appear that the current focus of security activity is around Damascus, where a sweeping operation has been ordered aimed at curtailing rebel activity in the capital’s hinterland, all the way to the Lebanese border. This in turn reflects a top-level decision to take all necessary action, over an indeterminate period, to eliminate any “threat from the West.”

...

The Syrian army appears to have embarked on a campaign described as “extremely harsh.” aimed at “exterminating entire groups” of rebels.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/fire-syria-ii-regime’s-response

Red_Wolf · 14-06-2012 11:19AM

Today a video has been released by Al Qaeda's 2nd in command telling people to go and fight in Syria

wes · 14-06-2012 12:00PM

Red_Wolf wrote: »

Today a video has been released by Al Qaeda's 2nd in command telling people to go and fight in Syria

The last thing Syria needs is the murderous cretins of Al Qaeda getting involved.

Jaafa · 14-06-2012 12:10PM

wes wrote: »

The last thing Syria needs is the murderous cretins of Al Qaeda getting involved.

They already are in the country and have been for some time. This has been well established, and mentioned even by the pentagon.

AlekSmart · 14-06-2012 10:30PM

plasmaguy wrote: »

So you think Gadaffi should have been allowed demolish Benghazi instead and slaughter everyone who opposed him?

Nope.

I never bought into the demolish Banghazi line at all,and still don't.

The bould Colonel did very forcibly,and with typically demonically sounding threats warn the then emerging rebel faction of his intent to hunt them down.

However,the fact remains that Gadaffi's very specific threats were successfully massaged and managed until they could be marketed to the civilized cultured world as a threat to randomly Scorch his entire country.

Threatening to use Anti-Aircraft weapons against the civilian population was another highly colourful wording ascribed to Gadaffi also,with little supporting evidence produced either then or now to verify it.

One significant reason for the dearth of UN/NATO interest in Syria is the lack of any real grandstanding from Bashir al-Assad in a situation which would have seen Gadaffi harranguing all and sundry at maximum volume.

Al-Assad's apparent mundane appearance and behaviour makes a media-job somewhat harder to do on him as he has not risen to the bait in media terms.

Eggy Baby! · 15-06-2012 12:01AM

Threatening to use Anti-Aircraft weapons against the civilian population was another highly colourful wording ascribed to Gadaffi also,with little supporting evidence produced either then or now to verify it.

Don't forget the warplanes!

plasmaguy · 15-06-2012 06:24PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nope.

I never bought into the demolish Banghazi line at all,and still don't.

The bould Colonel did very forcibly,and with typically demonically sounding threats warn the then emerging rebel faction of his intent to hunt them down.

However,the fact remains that Gadaffi's very specific threats were successfully massaged and managed until they could be marketed to the civilized cultured world as a threat to randomly Scorch his entire country.

Threatening to use Anti-Aircraft weapons against the civilian population was another highly colourful wording ascribed to Gadaffi also,with little supporting evidence produced either then or now to verify it.

One significant reason for the dearth of UN/NATO interest in Syria is the lack of any real grandstanding from Bashir al-Assad in a situation which would have seen Gadaffi harranguing all and sundry at maximum volume.

Al-Assad's apparent mundane appearance and behaviour makes a media-job somewhat harder to do on him as he has not risen to the bait in media terms.

Well luckily the Arab League and UNSC disagreed with you and action against Gadaffi was supported by both these organisations.

Gadaffi is dead thankfully and goodriddance to the scumbag.

AlekSmart · 15-06-2012 08:24PM

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well luckily the Arab League and UNSC disagreed with you and action against Gadaffi was supported by both these organisations.

Gadaffi is dead thankfully and goodriddance to the scumbag.

Two most excellent organizations,whose judgement is beyond reproach.

Yup,dead and that's for sure,all well and good,however there ain't as yet any sign of an incumbent Libyan leader who will apply himself to the general wellbeing of his country as the former evil,despotic,lunatic etc ....Time,of course,will tell ?

Mervyn Crawford · 17-06-2012 01:10PM

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung confirms it's report on the Houla massacre
http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/houl-j16.shtml
It is patently absurd to take as good coin the torrent of misinformation on Syria posing as news reporting.

It is not possible to understand the events in Syria except as the next step in the plans of Imperialism to get the planet in it's militaristic grip. The world economic crisis of capitalism leaves no other option for the ruling class but savage austerity; and war amongst themselves.

The seizure of resources in the region is also coupled with the military encroachment on China and the Russian federation. The realpolitik of the pressure of events dictates the ditching of former allies.

Jaafa · 17-06-2012 01:58PM

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung confirms it's report on the Houla massacre
http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/houl-j16.shtml
It is patently absurd to take as good coin the torrent of misinformation on Syria posing as news reporting.

It is not possible to understand the events in Syria except as the next step in the plans of Imperialism to get the planet in it's militaristic grip. The world economic crisis of capitalism leaves no other option for the ruling class but savage austerity; and war amongst themselves.

The seizure of resources in the region is also coupled with the military encroachment on China and the Russian federation. The realpolitik of the pressure of events dictates the ditching of former allies.

This account is far more detailed and makes far more sense than that of the rebels. These people were Shia, pro-assad, or at least anti-rebels. I doubt however you'll see western countries welcoming back their Syrian ambassadors and apologizing for their error, they want this war to drag on.

Nodin · 22-06-2012 11:40PM

The Syrian military has said it shot down a Turkish plane "flying in airspace over Syrian waters", according to state-run news agency Sana.
The F-4 Phantom disappeared over the Mediterranean, south-west of Hatay province, near the Syrian coast.
Turkey had earlier said it believed that one of its F-4 fighter jets had been shot down by Syrian forces.
A search for the two crew members is under way involving Turkish and Syrian coast guard ships.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18561219

This isn't going to help matters.

Eggy Baby! · 23-06-2012 11:39AM

Even if the Turks accidentally flew over Syrian waters the Syrians will still take a harder stance towards them. They'd do anything now, as they are so isolated and paranoid they'll think everyone is conspiring against them (although that is kind of true).

The Russians are in a prime situation to end this. I presume they'll use their leverage with Assad to get them results elsewhere, like in Iran or regarding the missile shield/nuclear disarmament.

Suff · 23-06-2012 02:20PM

This is very suspicious... if you recall Erdogan had announced back in April that Turkey could resort to the fifth section of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to protect its border with Syria after the Syrian forces launched a fire inside Turkish territory. Section five of the Treaty states that in the event that any member of the NATO faces an aggression or any form of an attack, all members will be forced to consider this attack against them, and consequently they must take the necessary measures to help the country against the attack. hence; a cheap attempt to get NATO involved.

Link Here's another report stating that Saudi is funding the FSA.

excerpt:
'The move, which has been discussed between Riyadh and senior officials in the US and Arab world, is believed to be gaining momentum as a recent flush of weapons sent to rebel forces by Saudi Arabia and Qatar starts to make an impact on battlefields in Syria. Officials in the Saudi capital embraced the idea when it was put to them by Arab officials in May, according to sources in three Arab states, around the same time that weapons started to flow across the southern Turkish border into the hands of Free Syria Army leaders.

The Guardian witnessed the transfer of weapons in early June near the Turkish frontier. Five men dressed in the style of Gulf Arabs arrived in a police station in the border village of Altima in Syria and finalised a transfer from the Turkish town of Reyhanli of around 50 boxes of rifles and ammunition, as well as a large shipment of medicines.

The men were treated with deference by local FSA leaders and were carrying large bundles of cash. They also received two prisoners held by rebels, who were allegedly members of the pro-regime militia, the Shabiha.

The influx of weapons has reinvigorated the insurrection in northern Syria, which less than six weeks ago was on the verge of being crushed.'

This is an organised foreign attack on Syria.

As for the FSA; I think they need to re-arrange their name to SFA - Saudi Funded Army. ...bastards.

Let's see who will fund the Saudi opposition, its only a matter of time.

AlekSmart · 23-06-2012 10:28PM

The F-4 Phantom disappeared over the Mediterranean, south-west of Hatay province, near the Syrian coast.
Turkey had earlier said it believed that one of its F-4 fighter jets had been shot down by Syrian forces.

I'd be with Suff on this one....

Suff: This is very suspicious... if you recall Erdogan had announced back in April that Turkey could resort to the fifth section of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to protect its border with Syria after the Syrian forces launched a fire inside Turkish territory. Section five of the Treaty states that in the event that any member of the NATO faces an aggression or any form of an attack, all members will be forced to consider this attack against them, and consequently they must take the necessary measures to help the country against the attack. hence; a cheap attempt to get NATO involved.

As somebody who watched the news footage of U.S F4 Phantom's operating over Vietnam and other area's of American influence I'm somewhat intrigued to note Turkey's continued use of the Aircraft.

Interesting also to note the Israeli input into the issue....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175673-Turkey-accepts-first-Aselsan-modified-F-4E-Phantom.

It's a funny old world.

Eggy Baby! · 23-06-2012 10:37PM

As somebody who watched the news footage of U.S F4 Phantom's operating over Vietnam and other area's of American influence I'm somewhat intrigued to note Turkey's continued use of the Aircraft.

Also note that Iran has loads of them from the 60s

Jaafa · 23-06-2012 10:40PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'd be with Suff on this one....

As somebody who watched the news footage of U.S F4 Phantom's operating over Vietnam and other area's of American influence I'm somewhat intrigued to note Turkey's continued use of the Aircraft.

Interesting also to note the Israeli input into the issue....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175673-Turkey-accepts-first-Aselsan-modified-F-4E-Phantom.

It's a funny old world.

Even old airframes can be kept running very well with the right upgrades and maintenance, while at the same time being relegated to lesser roles such as patrolling or monitoring, which seems to be what this f4 was doing when it slipped into Syrian airspace, accidentally or otherwise.

It's interesting to note of course the Syrian reaction in that they seem to believe it was an honest mistake and are helping with rescue operations. Then again it could just be they wish to avoid the aforementioned 'NATO clause'.

Eggy Baby! · 24-06-2012 02:38AM

Most armies are retrofitted nowadays. The M16, for example, is ancient. But it has seen several upgrades (M16A2, M16A3, M16A4) since it was introduced. But it is still essentially the same gun, albeit with minor improvements.

BlaasForRafa · 24-06-2012 05:01AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

As somebody who watched the news footage of U.S F4 Phantom's operating over Vietnam and other area's of American influence I'm somewhat intrigued to note Turkey's continued use of the Aircraft.

That backward country Germany still has a wing of Phantoms in service

nato%206%201%2010%20German%20F4%20Phantom.preview.jpg

As do several other countries.

If an design still fulfills a role and is well maintained it can last for many decades. The USA is still using B-52s that were built in the early 1960's. The Chinese are still using the Xian H6, a licensed version of the Soviet Tupolev Tu-16, a design from the early 1950's, the Russians themselves are still using the spectacular Tupolev Tu-95 bear, a mid-50's design. If it works, it works.

Interesting also to note the Israeli input into the issue....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175673-Turkey-accepts-first-Aselsan-modified-F-4E-Phantom.

It's a funny old world.

Israeli companies upgraded Turkish airplanes and armoured vehicles over the years until recently, I'm not sure what point you are making.

Eggy Baby! · 24-06-2012 12:21PM

If an design still fulfills a role and is well maintained it can last for many decades. The USA is still using B-52s that were built in the early 1960's. The Chinese are still using the Xian H6, a licensed version of the Soviet Tupolev Tu-16, a design from the early 1950's, the Russians themselves are still using the spectacular Tupolev Tu-95 bear, a mid-50's design. If it works, it works.

Spot on. American special forces on occasion use the M1911. This pistol was around during WW1! Until recently the main machinegun of the US Army was a Browning from WW1 also.

American forces have been documented picking up insurgent AK47s for use in urban combat too. The Russian AK74M main assault rifle is a lower calibre, more modern and more accurate version of the AK47 although it shares the same design characteristics. If you look at most Russian assault rifles they seem to share DNA with the AK47 (the AN94, AK100 series and AEK971 come to mind).

The A10 Warthog, a "tank-buster" and an icon of US air supremacy in the First and Second Gulf Wars, has actually been around for decades. The M1A1 Abrams is three decades old (but has gone through an upgrade, the M1A2) however the older M1A1 is the most common by far. The Russians still use the exceptional T72 tank is large numbers.

I could go on but you all get the picture

Suff · 26-06-2012 12:30PM

This Turkish plane incident is just another piece in this chess game...

Sending a warplane to fly over Syria's air place (during the rising tension between the two countries) is not as straightforward and innocent as Turkey is trying to make it out to be... there was something to be achieved by this. The next few days, weeks will deliver the results of such stunt.

However, I am annoyed at the reaction to this plane incident; everyone quickly jumped to criticise Syria's action, which I believe was in self-defense, logical and acceptable, since the turkish war plane did invade the Syrian airspace. While on the other hand, Turkey's ongoing daily bombardment of the kurdish northern boarders of Iraq goes without any objection or a word of condemnation from international community. And what of Israel's monthly flights over the southern Lebanese boarders? ...again nothing. No, I'm not ranting about Israel here, such topic would require a lifetime.

It seems to me that the media along with the international community loves having a villain, for them to play the role of the decent nobel.

This year's villain: Syria.

Sponge Bob · 26-06-2012 12:35PM

The plane in question was most likely probing Syrias air defences and likely as a proxy for determining whether the military still controlled them.

They would have had an oooopps moment that did not last very long.

Suff · 26-06-2012 03:30PM

Link

Mr Erdogan also said Turkey was totally in the right over Syria's shooting down of a Turkish plane and that Ankara's rational response to the incident should not be mistaken for weakness.

"Everybody should know that Turkey's wrath is just as strong and devastating," Mr Erdogan said in a speech to his ruling AK Party deputies in parliament.The army's rules of engagement along the two countries' border had now changed, he said.

"Every military element approaching Turkey from the Syrian border and representing a security risk and danger will be assessed as a military threat and will be treated as a military target," he said.

Turkey can do that but apparently it is unacceptable for Syria to apply the same!?

Sponge Bob · 26-06-2012 04:00PM

Sounds like the Turks have designated a NO FLY zone in northern Syria so.

cyberhog · 27-06-2012 06:00AM

Erdogan's bellicose rhetoric is just a piece of political theatre. Turkey isn't going to risk doing anything that would invite retaliation.

His Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said Turkey: “must remain calm and collected,” “We must not give premium to any provocative speeches and acts.”

cyberhog · 29-06-2012 02:27AM

The latest word from the UN investigation into the Houla massacre is it is currently unable to determine the identity of the perpetrators.

Killers in Syrian massacre remain a mystery

A special commission of inquiry reported Wednesday to the U.N. Human Rights Council that it could not rule out either side as the potential perpetrators of the crimes. Nor could it eliminate a third possibility: that the killers were “foreign groups with unknown affiliation.”

The U.N.-commissioned inquiry was exhaustive, but it suffered a major shortcoming: Investigators were not allowed to enter Syria, much less visit Houla. Instead, they relied on interviews conducted via telephone or Skype; some face-to-face interviews with people who had left the country; and sundry documentation, including photos and video of the scene and satellite images from before and after the killings.

JustinDee · 29-06-2012 03:09PM

"The U.N.-commissioned inquiry was exhaustive, but it suffered a major shortcoming: Investigators were not allowed to enter Syria, much less visit Houla"
- So it was a investigation-by-proxy then. Is that really enough to draw safe conclusions with? Particularly with no entry to the country, not even the area, permitted. Not in the slightest. All it does is fuel speculation and smudge grey areas greyer.

Mervyn Crawford · 29-06-2012 03:53PM

Might I please refer again to to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung
and it's pieces on the Houla massacre:

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/houl-j16.shtml

To discuss the events in Syria without discussing the eruption of American militarism and the world economic crisis is in itself to take a definite political position.

A plague on both your houses approach covers the truth.

If the Syrian regime reports honestly then that is because it is under attack by Imperialism and it's proxies in Turkey, Saudia Arabia and Quatar.

Similarly the role of the Russian state. As the aim of Washington is to impose its own client regimes in Syria and Iran, and thus close the circle ever tighter on the Russian Federation and China. Because the Imperialists are the aggressors both Damascus and Moscow can take the moral high ground

However, establishing that bourgeois nationalists of Syria and the former Stalinists of Russia and China are profoundly cynical does not mean therfore that Imperialism is not on the offensive.

It patently is. And threatens world war if left unchecked.

What if Assad is telling the truth?

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