What if Assad is telling the truth?

Truely disgusting actions by residents of a pro Assad town trying to block UN monitors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9327071/Syria-UN-monitors-blocked-from-reaching-Al-Haffe.html

What we are seeing in Syria is as bad as it was in Bosnia when the Bosnian-Serbs committed atrocities against the Muslims.

All this criticism of anyone who dares raise the prospect that Assad is guilty of horrendous crimes is painted by posters here as pro-West with rebuttals quoting that beacon of democracy Russia.

Actually its the other way around.. :rolleyes:

Your opinion is on the wrong side of the UN hence you are in the wrong on this one. Assad has been blamed by the UN for killing over a thousand kids as well as torturing many more.

The UN is an absolute farce.

Make up your mind, what you said earlier is different to what you say now. Which is it?

A load of crap. My opinion has been consistent throughout. I'm not pro-Assad as you guys so delusionally maintain and this would be fairly obvious if you took the time to read the bloody thread.

Evidently nothing I say manages to infiltrate your brains, or else you are simply ignoring it to suit your own agendas, by branding me as some sort of Assad apologist.

You wanted Assad to stay with reforms in post #50 and yet said he must go in post #152 and will not give a definitive answer now. Thats serious inconsistency on your part of the political situation there.

Nope. I said the best solution as apparent would be for Assad to stay but enact broad reforms (that is, absolutely dismantle the apparatuses of dictatorship and repression, enact a proper ceasefire and call elections) if he called elections, and they were free and fair, he would certainly be voted out. Therefore, he is gone.
Then I said I wanted Assad to go, and he will, if he calls actual elections, as I said before!

What do you mean I won't give a definitive answer now? I've made my stance quite clear.

The UN disagrees with you so its a farce, nice.

Just like the way I disagree with you so I'm pro-Assad, nice.

The UN is not a farce because it disagrees with me, it is a farce because it is:
A; Emasculated by the USA going around doing its own thing independent of international laws and norms,

B; Emasculated by the Security Council in which 1 country can overturn a hundred (all the members are guilty of this btw),

C; Chasing pipe dreams in Syria as millions die in the Congo while the peacekeeper skeleton crew there attempts to keep the peace,

D; It is overshadowed by NATO in activeness (I don't agree with NATO as it is a proxy for America),

E; Allows itself to be spied upon without condemning the perpetrators (i.e the USA),

F; Failed Iraq, the Congo, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, many South American countries from being raped and intervened in by the USA, the list goes on,

G; It has failed to combat piracy such as in Somalia, instead individual countries are sending their own stuff,

H; It has failed to bring mediation in dozens of territorial disputes, such as in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, where France had to broker a ceasefire, or in Kurdistan, or Northern Ireland,

I; People say the UN has brought about greater world peace but it is in fact more due to economic interdependency than their presence,

J; Is largely a bureaucracy-choked morass which takes weeks to condemn a country for invading another,

K; Will be gone in a few decades due to the world splitting up into security organisations of their own i.e NATO, the SCO etc.

L; Failed the post-Soviet Union countries in the 90's BIG TIME as most collapsed into ethnic/civil wars, corruption, dictatorship and doom

Note that the list is not exhaustive- there is much more failure!

tl;dr? The UN is a farce due to empirical evidence.

This thread is just as divided as the Syrian people are...

Again, I am only speaking for the people I know; a good number are against the regime and want to see a change without Blood. An equal number are worried that this will only spill Blood and our future is deemed to be ruled by chaos. Very few people I know are what you can call 'hardcore rebels' that have this simple idea of "All we want is for them to go, anything is better than them!" I can assure you that they're losing support within the Syrian society.

As a Syrian, I am completely ashamed by the atrocious actions that have been carried out by some of my fellow Syrians. I cannot believe how stupid some of them are, sighting hate and dragging the country into a vicious sectarian war.

If that is the change that they want, I don't want any part of it and I will oppose and fight it.

I have said this time and time again, Yes; we have issues with the Ba'ath party, Yes, we have suffered under their 'reign' BUT ripping the country apart by applying a similar ideology to that used by the Bush administration 10 years ago - "If you're not with us, you're against us!" - to overthrow the current government or resolve the conflict just plain stupid and will not work.

Have we forgot about America's soap opera on Iraq's WMD? can't anyone see similar patterns working here??

'Assad is a blood thirsty lunatic, murderer and war criminal...and so on' We didn't hear such words until 8 months ago. First of all, Bashar is not as bad as the media is trying to portray him to be, and still to this day he has big support of many Syrians, regardless of their sect. With a population of 24 million, how many have risen against the government? A million? three million?
Why haven't the remaining 21 million made their voice heard? the lack of freedom of speech? or is it Fear? ...Political fear is long dead in Syria; young people at cafes, taxi drivers and grocery shop owners have voiced their political (for & against) opinions publicly. It's your actions that is likely to get you killed or kidnaped.

But what about Syria during Bashar's 11 years in power?

Well, ...Syria was fine! Yes... I am confidently stating this:

Syria was fine and going very well, why deny it? We're free and don't have a national debt, our GDP growth was healthy with promising EU treaties and free trade relationships. Our infrastructure was developing rapidly and we had unbelievable security. What we lacked was a democratic government true, but our political scene was heading toward it at a healthy pace. Bashar had publicly acknowledge the mistakes of the last government (his father's Gov) and promised to correct them, and this he did by introducing reforms, and many legislations to replace the old 'Ba'ath laws that promised a better political future for the country. If you think that you can bestow, apply democracy with a click of a button or by removing a government you're clearly naive.

However, anyone who have been interested or have followed the region's political history would know that Syria's growing relationship with Iran, Russia and China didn't sit well with America and its allies. This resulted in a Media war on Syria back in 2001; 9/11 - Iraq's WMD (2003), Lebanon (2005 - 2006) and the current campaign of 2011 -2012.

A military intervention like the one applied on Iraq is out of the question, and what a better way to get the job done without getting your hands dirty? - Get them to fight each other!

Syrian Rebels are Foreign-backed Terrorists:
Link 1

Disagreements Among Syrian Rebels Over Foreign Arms:
Link 2

Now, we have these armed forces and militias - FSA (which I don't acknowledge to be a Syrian Army) fighting the National Syrian Army. And, of course the regime's answer is to fight back, they don't want to lose their power over Syria and surely we'll see them fight till the end. My fears that it'll be the end of Syria and not the regime.

To summarise; Do I want Assad to go? ...Yes, but not like this.

I am not usually a fan of conspiracy theories, but they make more sense than what we have seen and heard out of the mainstream media. The following link does give an 'interesting' analogy to the current situation in Syria. Link 3

JustinDee wrote: »

Syria has always been the centre of a cold war theatre in the Middle East and has been extremely active along with Hizbullah and Iran in operations theree. Who backs them? Everyone is backed. Each and every country or faction involved.

I agree, but to simply state the current situation as a civil revolt against a dictator is silly. There are two forces at war here, and Syria is the battle ground.

cyberhog wrote: »

Suppose Assad is right and terrorists do in fact bare most of the responsibililty for the civilian massacre, and it turns out that they killed those children in the hope it would trigger a NATO intervention then I think it would be unconscionable if the West continued to support the anti-government side because it would be virtually impossible to prevent that support from reaching those terrorists aswell.

Why would people slaughter their own mother and fathers brothers,sisters,sons and daughters!! the Free Syrian Army operates in their own towns and villages,the only terrorists in the country are Al Qaeda who are suicide bombing the capital and they don't have the numbers to go into a village and kill everyone.Hezbollah and Iran's special forces are working with the Syrian state army to kill the supporters of the FSA they are the ones that are doing this along with the thugs called shabeeha.the FSA dose not have the artillery we see every day being used to soften up the towns and villages before they go in and go house to house.(as soon as Gaddafi said that NATO were bombing every building with a green flag on it but in Syria we are watching it happen every day house by house killing and arresting).

If the world dose not do something we will have thousands of people going on Jihad and some will be used by Al Qaeda to establish a base like in Yemen and Somalia with Al Shabab who announced recently they are part of Al Qaeda.

We saw in Libya people going on Jihad and being turned away if they were not Libyan or if they thought it was Al Qaeda whose ally Ansar ud-Dine stole thousands of weapons from Libya and took control of 2/3 of Mali with the MNLA,that war only lasted less than a year and look how much damage was caused.This and much worse will happen Syria if nothing is done to save it!

Can you imagine Al Qaeda with a base in the Med on the back door to Europe!

The one thing that is certain is that Assad has ruined Syria.

He could have handed the country over to a democratic government and he had plenty of time to organize credible elections including credible presidential elections. The fact that he wouldn't allow anyone to run against him in the presidential elections tells its own stories, he knew he would lose if he did.

He must take much of the blame for destroying Syria.

plasmaguy wrote: »

He must take much of the blame for destroying Syria.

No one is denying that, but also the SFA has a lot to answer for.

Suff wrote: »

Redwolf,

I doubt that you'll have Al Qaeda base in Syria. the country has been secular state for many years, since its independent from the Ottoman and later the French mandate. Islamists fundamentalists have no supporters in syria, largely due to the bombings in the early 80's by the Muslim brotherhood.

the FSA is well armed and capable to fight and hold off the National Syrian Army. Otherwise, the regime would have wiped them out months ago.

What country dose support people like Al Qaeda??the majority of Tuareg's in Mali or Azawad don't and they are having Wahhabi law being enforced on them its the same in southern Yemen were thousands are leaving their homes in Abbyan province and in Somalia they are hated but they controlled almost the whole country at one point,they brainwash people into believing in their Saudi supported religion of Wahhabism.
Everyone from the FSA to the UN know Al Qaeda is in the country and it will be very easy for them to recruit with all the sectarian violence that's growing day by day,they will target the Alawis and Christians and once they have enough people they will take whole towns.

The FSA are being given machine guns and a few million here and there but the Syrian army is constantly being given weapons tanks and helicopters by Russia and troops by Iran an Hezbollah.I don't remember the IRA taking the north with the money and guns they got from some of the people around then.

The quicker Assad goes and a new government is created to establish law and order and start reconciliation the better.

Suff wrote: »

Your idea of the FSA is that they're defending themselves and the people from Assad is ludicrous... The FSA have kidnaped and killed civilians and this has been documented and witnessed by many observers and Syrians.

Source about this?

Claiming you are from Syria will only get you so far around here, you have to actually post your sources as opposed to saying you know its happening.

The French Resistance were an armed militia who often killed civilians. George Washington lead a militia. The IRA pre 1922 were an armed militia.

Stop being so naive. You know full well you can't freedom from regimes like Assad's without using weapons and forming a militia.

Again you have no right to lecture the Syrian people as you don't live there and while you might think Syria under Assad was ok, clearly millions of Syrians disagree with you.

Throughout the uprising in Syria, President Bashar Assad has been able to count on strong support in own sect, the Alawites. But recent reports suggest that a small but growing number of Alawites are abandoning Assad.

Sectarian divisions are said to be the main factors in recent massacres inside Syria. Alawite attackers descended on Sunni Muslim towns, killing up to 200 people, according to activists. The Alawites are a Shiite sect and are a small minority in Syria but they hold outsized power. President Bashar al-Assad is an Alawite.

As the Russia and and China say, "Let the best team win", then when there is only one team left standing there will be some sort of peace in Syria.

The West/UN should just stand back as Russia and China recommend they do, and let the Syrian muslims sort it out

Suff wrote: »

If only... foreign intervention is visible and have worsened the situation.But Muslims aren't the only sect in Syria, Christians have played a major role in the past, hopefully they'll start to voice their opinion soon.


FYI; A campaign was launched last year on Facebook among Syrians to unite the people against sectarian divisions:

Q; Are you Sunni, She'it, Alawi, Durzi, Catholic, Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Assyrian-Church, Armenian Orthodox, Protestants....???

A; I'm Syrian!

That sounds like the line peddled by Assad.

All united, under Assad.

It wears thin after a while.

A lot of people have prospered under Assad, including some Sunnis, but it's the Alwites that have really prospered hence their desperation to hold onto power. It was the same under Gadaffi and his supporters. The vast majority suffered, while some prospered.

It's hard to blame the people of Syria for having enough. If it was a dictatorship that had widespread support fair enough, but it doesn't and like all dictatorships, it survives by pitting one group against another and when there is a chance of the dictatorship falling, the dictator arms one side and sets them against the other, which is exactly what Assad did.

The crimes of the FSA are miniscule in comparison to the monstrous crimes against humanity perpetrated by Assad.

cyberhog wrote: »

We heard the same thing about Libya, the sooner Gaddafi is gone the better! Well Libya is not better now, if anything it is getting much worse.

The fighting is intensifying.

Not to mention the birthplace of Libya's revolution is deteriorating day by day.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/libya-cracking/?pagination=false

If the Western nations and their Gulf allies force Assad out Syria will probably end up in the same state as Libya.

It is worthwhile to note just how decisively Libya,as an important and influential power in it's region,has been emasculated.

Unlike others I do not credit the USA with any great involvement in formulating the ouster of Gadaffi.

My belief is that important,well connected,powerful and largely European interests decided that Gadaffi's "return-to-the-fold" in international diplomatic terms had been a tad too successful,resulting in a problematic rise in the ex-lunatic Gadaffi's stature in the region.

The unpredictable and bombastic Gadaffi obligingly played straight into the trap with his blood-curdling and spectacularly graphic threats to his enemies wellbeing.

The very mention of hunting "cockroaches from room-to-room" and of pursuing his enemies to their bloody ends must have seemed too good to miss for the well versed smooth suited psy-ops minded folk who flit about the edges of the policy formulation sections of "Major Powers".

Therefore the status of Gadaffi's threats had to be maxed-out and used to stimulate a response strategy from those Western Powers with an "Interest" in the region.

The result?

The U.N./NATO strategy adopted,with great success,allowed the main players (Italy,France,UK and Germany) to wage a popular "Clean-War" against a very clearly defined, Evil,despotic dictator.

Having proven the tactic of a supportive long-distance distance war, the UN/NATO alliance were rapidly able to disentangle themselves from the remains of Libya and head back home,without the arkward business of repatriating dead service personnel in bodybags.

The "problem" of Gadaffi's Libya becoming overly influential in the region has been neatly solved,with only Libyan blood being spilled and the thoroughly spurious notion of a "clean" campaign of war now firmly established as achievable.

Job done !