Are our laws too lenient?

GarIT · 23-06-2012 08:20PM #1

Say if you break into someone's house, you know you shouldn't, you know its wrong, and you know its illegal but you still went and did it, if you got caught you would only get maybe 6 months. Nobody could make you and there is no question that it is a wrong thing to do. Sentences should be much longer than they are, in a crime where someone knows they are doing wrong they should be doing serious time.

I would scrap concurrent sentences too if I could.

I think it could work, it would actually deter criminals. If heard the counter arguemnt before of filling up prisions, but I believe there would be less crime, or the criminals would leave Ireland. If you know something is wrong you don't do it, suspended sentences are a joke for people that knew exactly what they are doing. House robberies are on the rise but would there be any at all if you could end up facing 15 years?

Farcear · 23-06-2012 08:24PM

100 year sentence as a joke? $:\$

GarIT · 23-06-2012 08:25PM

Farcear wrote: »

100 year sentence as a joke? $:\$

What? Do you not think murder deserves that?

Farcear · 23-06-2012 08:27PM

What if I kill two people?

Frynge · 23-06-2012 08:29PM

200 years

anders brevick wouldn't be out for a while

NoQuarter · 23-06-2012 08:31PM

You've put about as much though into this as Trap did to the Ireland squad!

If someone gets 100 years for murder, then they might as well go on a spree of offences! They would never hand themselves in, never plead guilty, could never get out on bail because lets face it, who could face 100 years in prison.

The prisons would be mayhem, with no hope of rehabilitation prisoners would do whatever they want, sure why not attack the guards every chance they get!?

100 years minimum for rape, so little john who is 15 has sex with his 14 year old girlfriend, night night little john, see you in 100 years!

What if I knock someone down when robbing their shop, I get my 15 years for robbery and you would also slap me up for 25 for the assault, but you would do away with concurrent sentences so im in prison for a looong long time for one stupid act that I could probably be rehabilitated for.

If you are that interested in it you should do some research into sentencing principles and you would realise there are points to the levels such as deterrance, rehabilitaion etc.

GarIT · 23-06-2012 08:38PM

NoQuarter wrote: »

You've put about as much though into this as Trap did to the Ireland squad!

If someone gets 100 years for murder, then they might as well go on a spree of offences! They would never hand themselves in, never plead guilty, could never get out on bail because lets face it, who could face 100 years in prison.

The prisons would be mayhem, with no hope of rehabilitation prisoners would do whatever they want, sure why not attack the guards every chance they get!?

100 years minimum for rape, so little john who is 15 has sex with his 14 year old girlfriend, night night little john, see you in 100 years!

What if I knock someone down when robbing their shop, I get my 15 years for robbery and you would also slap me up for 25 for the assault, but you would do away with concurrent sentences so im in prison for a looong long time for one stupid act that I could probably be rehabilitated for.

If you are that interested in it you should do some research into sentencing principles and you would realise there are points to the levels such as deterrance, rehabilitaion etc.

Maybe half what I said earlier but 8 years for murder just seems like nothing. Obviously you would still have to have the good behaviour things as normal so things dont get too out of control.

charlemont · 23-06-2012 08:40PM

50 years for drug dealing,

Ireland would be like Mexico in no time.

johnnyskeleton · 23-06-2012 08:41PM

GarIT wrote: »

Say if you break into someone's house, you know you shouldn't, you know its wrong, and you know its illegal but you still went and did it, if you got caught you would only get maybe 6 months. Nobody could make you and there is no question that it is a wrong thing to do. Why dont we have a minimum of 10 or 15 years sentence for robbery, 25 years for assault, 50 years for drug dealing, 100 years minmum for rape or murder, would the country not be a much better place?

There is a considerable volume of studies that show that the severity of sentence does not deter crime to as significant a degree as other factors do e.g. the chances of getting caught, social disapproval etc. This is primarily done in the case of the death penalty, which does not have a significant deterrent factor and it is the most severe punishment of all.

If you look at it another way, the primary risk to a regular criminal is that they will be killed by a rival, so if that doesn't deter them then a lengthy prison sentence will not either.

Many burglary cases result in longer sentences than 6 months, and even at 6 months for a first offence is something of a deterrent.

charlemont · 23-06-2012 08:41PM

GarIT wrote: »

Maybe half what I said earlier but 8 years for murder just seems like nothing. Obviously you would still have to have the good behaviour things as normal so things dont get too out of control.

Who gets 8 years for Murder ?

johnnyskeleton · 23-06-2012 08:42PM

GarIT wrote: »

Maybe half what I said earlier but 8 years for murder just seems like nothing. Obviously you would still have to have the good behaviour things as normal so things dont get too out of control.

Name one instance of an 8 year sentence for murder. There is a mandatory sentence for murder of life imprisonment.

GarIT · 23-06-2012 08:46PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Name one instance of an 8 year sentence for murder. There is a mandatory sentence for murder of life imprisonment.

There was someone that got 8 years last week, the guy who shot his friend in the back over drugs. It was probably man slaughter and not murder but I think it deserves similar sentences.

onemorechance · 23-06-2012 08:46PM

I think that the OP has a point, although somewhat exaggerated and simplistic. I would be very much in favour of longer and harsher sentences for violent crimes.

For example, those that left the pipe bomb that the kid picked up should get lengthy sentences; punishment should come before rehabilitation in cases such as this. These guys should be sentenced to 25 years with parole possible after 15 should they earn it.

The_Minister · 23-06-2012 08:50PM

We used to hang people for stealing pocket-watches.

There was still crime.

GarIT · 23-06-2012 08:52PM

onemorechance wrote: »

I think that the OP has a point, although somewhat exaggerated and simplistic. I would be very much in favour of longer and harsher sentences for violent crimes.

For example, those that left the pipe bomb that the kid picked up should get lengthy sentences; punishment should come before rehabilitation in cases such as this. These guys should be sentenced to 25 years with parole possible after 15 should they earn it.

I did say it before I thought about it and got a bit carried away. Say if there was a minumum to be served of 5 years for breaking an entry, minimum of 10 for assult and minimum of 15 for murder of rape, all of those including parole.

Just to be clear about an earlier post I would completely change the laws regarding statuatory rape laws as I don't see it as bad of a crime as actually rape.

gavmcg92 · 23-06-2012 08:54PM

How do we compare to our neighbours in the UK?

onemorechance · 23-06-2012 08:56PM

Probably very similar to the UK as our legal system is based on theirs.

gavmcg92 · 23-06-2012 08:57PM

onemorechance wrote: »

Probably very similar to the UK as our legal system is based on theirs.

So as far as sentence lengths we would be similar?

NoQuarter · 23-06-2012 09:01PM

GarIT wrote: »

I did say it before I thought about it and got a bit carried away. Say if there was a minumum to be served of 5 years for breaking an entry, minimum of 10 for assult and minimum of 15 for murder of rape, all of those including parole.

Im sorry but if I am out on a night out and someone insults my girlfriend for example, things get heated and I give someone a punch. I know Ive done wrong for sure, but lock me up for 10 years for it! Come on!

I'm not against certain sentences being increased but actual thought needs to be put into it!!

onemorechance · 23-06-2012 09:18PM

(A) – LESS THAN 1 MONTH
(B) – FROM 1 MONTH TO LESS THAN 3 MONTHS
(C) – FROM 3 MONTHS TO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS
(D) – FROM 6 MONTHS TO LESS THAN ONE YEAR
(E) – FROM 1 YEAR TO LESS THAN 3 YEARS
(F) – FROM 3 YEARS TO LESS THAN 5 YEARS
(G) – FROM 5 YEARS TO LESS THAN 10 YEARS
(H) – FROM 10 YEARS TO LESS THAN 20 YEARS
(I) – 20 YEARS AND OVER
(J) – LIFE IMPRISONMENT
(K) – PRISONERS SENTENCED TO DEATH

Country (a) (b) (c) (d) (e) (f) (g) (h) (i) (j)

Ireland (a) 0.5 (b) 0.8 (c) 2.5 (d) 9.5 (e) 25.0 (f) 22.2 (g) 23.1 (h) 7.4 (i) 0.6 (j) 8.3

UK: England and Wales (a) 0.5 (b) 2.1 (c) 4.9 (d) 3.6 (e) 29.2 (f) 19.3 (g) 16.7 (h) 5.0 (i) 0.4 (j) 18.3

UK: Northern Ireland (a) 3.3 (b) 0.9 (c) 5.8 (d) 6.8 (e) 16.6 (f) 13.7 (g) 19.5 (h) 13.4 (i) 0.7 (j) 19.3

UK: Scotland (a) 0.1 (b) 1.7 (c) 5.7 (d) 13.1 (e) 25.2 (f) 15.1 (g) 14.6 (h) 3.2 (i) 0.0 (j) 11.7

source: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/standardsetting/cdpc/bureau%20documents/PC-CP(2011)3%20E%20-%20SPACE%20I%202009.pdf

The percentage of prisoners in Irish prisoners on life sentences is 8.3%, which is less than half of the UK percentage, exlcuding Scotland, but still much higher than most other European countries. The next highest percent of lifers in the list is Finland at 5% and the mean in Europe is 3%. We might be harsher or stricter in Ireland than we thought!

Manach · 23-06-2012 10:31PM

Historically, punishment was used as a means of social control. For instance in the say the Regancy period, the reach/control of the state was a minimum. To create a deterence, draconian examples were made. On one hand, this lead to a fairly social society, incidents such as Peterloo excepted. On the other hand,factors such as immigration (forced or otherwise) played a part.

23-06-2012 10:41PM

Is it true that a prisoner automatically has 25% of their sentence removed due to good behaviour even before the enter prison? If yes, that is one of the first things I would remove!

Its crazy that is some gets 4 years for assault etc, they automatically get 1 year suspended for good behaviour even before they start their sentence.

Also, I would more likely blame the judges and the overcrowding in our prisons and not the laws for the petty sentences for some crimes which deserve harsh sentences (such as house burglary etc)

mikemac1 · 24-06-2012 01:26AM

Judges falling for sob stories

I was in court, TV licence. Dolphin House in Dublin 2
I was caught, fair enough, "nothing to say Judge" and got a fine

Some people brought their parents and some had solicitors to talk for them
My daughter has depression, my partner left me, I trying to save money for college, zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
What has any of that got to do with €160 or whatever it costs.

They got the probation act and no fine, I showed up and didn't waste the courts time and got a fine

Next time I'll turn on the waterworks and see where it gets me

GarIT · 24-06-2012 01:48AM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Im sorry but if I am out on a night out and someone insults my girlfriend for example, things get heated and I give someone a punch. I know Ive done wrong for sure, but lock me up for 10 years for it! Come on!

I'm not against certain sentences being increased but actual thought needs to be put into it!!

If you resort to violence over an insult you deserve to be punished, there are too many people that just think they can get voilent at anything.

The level of violence amoung young people is disgraceful now, people are hitting out over everything and nothing.

BRAIN FEEDs · 24-06-2012 01:13PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Judges falling for sob stories

I was in court, TV licence. Dolphin House in Dublin 2
I was caught, fair enough, "nothing to say Judge" and got a fine

Some people brought their parents and some had solicitors to talk for them
My daughter has depression, my partner left me, I trying to save money for college, zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
What has any of that got to do with €160 or whatever it costs.

They got the probation act and no fine, I showed up and didn't waste the courts time and got a fine

Next time I'll turn on the waterworks and see where it gets me

You went to court,and you say that its not wasting the courts time lol...... listen dude,next time your licence runs out and the inspector calls,tell them you will get it straight away,and when the system sees you have paid,your ass wont be in court,only then can you say,you are not wasting the courts time.

the examples you give above are probably answers to the judge,when he asks why didnt you pay the fine,you give an answer,i have seen plenty cases in my local court. average fine in ennis d/court for no showers 250 fine plus 75 costs with so many days in default.

Procrastastudy · 24-06-2012 07:12PM

What are you looking to achieve? A US style system high crime long prison sentences - a growing under class - with massive recidivism?

Its blindingly obvious that longer sentence do nothing. When the death penalty was in use in the UK for a numer of offenses and transportation to the colonies was an option - was crime lower? No of course it wasn't due to the massive social issues of the day.

Alternative methods of punishment which are effective and cheaper are the way forward. While a certain small number of people need to be locked up due to society and the medical profession not having the tools to deal with them - prisons as they are in use today have totally failed.

Go and get a book on criminology out of your nearest library if it was a function of sentance duration even our goverment would have figured it out by now.

NoQuarter · 24-06-2012 07:27PM

GarIT wrote: »

If you resort to violence over an insult you deserve to be punished..

Yes, but proportionately!

GarIT · 24-06-2012 07:30PM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Yes, but proportionately!

A physical attack can cause serious and lasting damage, it definately needs to be stricter than it is now, by how much is argueable.

Procrastastudy · 24-06-2012 07:32PM

GarIT wrote: »

A physical attack can cause serious and lasting damage, it definately needs to be stricter than it is now, by how much is argueable.

Why? To what end?

MagicSean · 24-06-2012 08:12PM

The_Minister wrote: »

We used to hang people for stealing pocket-watches.

There was still crime.

There would have been fewer criminals though.

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Why? To what end?

So the next person you hit out of rage doesn't end up in a coma? For me, I don't care about rehabilitation or even punishment. I want criminals kept away from the rest of us so we can go about our daily business

Zambia · 24-06-2012 11:43PM

MagicSean wrote: »

For me, I don't care about rehabilitation or even punishment. I want criminals kept away from the rest of us so we can go about our daily business

This is exactly right. Most people I meet who believe in criminals rehabilitation don't spend much time with crooks.

Its not easy to get into prison you have to work at it. If you ignore every warning on the road to serious time chances are you dont plan on changing.

Are our laws too lenient?

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