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What is Bertie Aherns legacy?

24

Comments

  • #32
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

    He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

    Bertie could be and very like a psychopath. Full of charisma (a front to rein people in). Use people and things for their own gains. Then take absolutely no responsibilty for his part in things and have no empathy for the people left behind struggling to cope with what he created.


  • #33
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Obviously I feel more sorry for the people in distress - that doesn't mean I can't feel for him on a human level at the same time!

    And the closet thing was just a bit of craic - he was a sports writer, all the other writers where positioned in a similar fashion. Never understood why people got their knickers in a twist over that specific incident...


  • #34
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    I honestly do feel somewhat sorry for him - exiled from his party, reputation in tatters. Maybe not as a politician, but as a human being it must be tough...


    Well, at least you can take comfort in the knowledge that you are reducing his burden, as seen in gerryo`s post.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    We will be rewarding him well for his years of 'self' service with a massive pension of €150,000 or thereabouts for the rest of his life.


  • #35
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    We are currently living it.


  • #36
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,031 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    I doubt Bertie cares too much about you OP.

    EVENFLOW



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  • #37
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Bertie Ahern was our prime minister,holder of the highest office in the land.
    That was suppose to mean something, to him to his party and more to us the people,He was the caught out lying through his teeth,he turned with many party colleagues a blind eye to the corruption and fraud that was rife through out the state,and did very well out of it,especially in the construction sector. Yes people should never forget him, there should be a yellow stone statue of him at the end of howth pier where the seagulls can rest there asses.


  • #38
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    people like mick wallace the public money thief,thats the legacy hes left behind all this cute hoorism,gombeens and micks they should be chucked out,our problem in ireland is we always ...always vote populist parties or ''independants'' who in reality are business sharks double jobbing..

    i hear his daughter wrote some chick trash books ones i wouldnt read not only just on principle,its just once you read one jackie collins book you read them all..


  • #39
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

    No, it's more that most people just lack basic intelligence.


  • #40
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    I've bought my ticket to do a 'Vincent Keaney' on his grave, as he'll most likely outlive me, I've made it transferable to my sons.


  • #41
    nacimroc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭nacimroc


    c_man wrote: »
    He'll get some credit for the North but overall his reputation will be down in the mud.

    To be fair Albert reynolds had all the hard work done in the north. He got them to the table, got peace deals etc. I still think Tony Blair had more to do with it than he gets credit for aswell. Of course Bertie jumped in on everyone elses hard work and took all the credit again.

    It was Ruiri Quinn who set up this country with the low corporation tax and lower tax rates to stimulate the country. Credit which he should get!


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  • #42
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    EnterNow wrote: »
    No, it's more that most people just lack basic intelligence.

    I don't buy that. Its actually more to do with voting for your local guy because he is the one going to get money spent where you live. Until our national politicians get away from this attitude it will never change. Local councillors should have greater control over local budgets with elections every two years. With the introduction of property taxes we should have greater say on how that money is spent locally.


  • #43
    bee_keeper
    Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭bee_keeper


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    I know he isn't exactly the flavour of the week around these parts anymore, but I quite honestly think he gets a worse rap than he deserves. Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service. He made mistakes economically and we're living through the resultant downturn - nobody is denying that, but I think the celtic tiger wouldn't have happened in the first place without the social partnership model he brokered wih the unions and other society stakeholders being in place.

    We had a good reputation abroad when he was in charge, and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs, which is an essential part of being a TD.

    Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

    I think history will remember him more fondly than the current consensus on him, but what do you think? When his work as Taoiseach is appraised by historians, what do you think his legacy will be?


    worst leader the country ever had

    his one and only priority was re-election and he was prepared to mortgage the future to do it

    as for his deal with the unions , its one of the reasons we are where we are and why all partys fear them so much


  • #44
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Foxhound38 wrote: »

    And the closet thing was just a bit of craic - he was a sports writer, all the other writers where positioned in a similar fashion. Never understood why people got their knickers in a twist over that specific incident...

    If you don't understand why that upset people so much about that then I would have to question your own views and values.


  • #45
    bee_keeper
    Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭bee_keeper


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

    a high percentage of irish people vote along family lines , especially in rural ireland where the only alternative is FG anyhow


  • #46
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    Lets remember too that the downturn happened under Cowan rather than Ahern himself.

    The downturn hinged on factors largely beyond the control of the Government.

    However, our own spectacular meltdown as a result of it was as a consequence of years of execrably shoddy oversight by Ahern himself at the Dept. of An Taoiseach.

    As for the man himself, he always struck me as an utter creep.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA


  • #47
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    ''And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...''


    It proves irish voters to be stupid voting back in the party that let us into financial ruin via the builders and bankers..

    Does anybody vote for anybody other than FF,or FG or Labour and god knows they have had their frauds in those parties..

    Any independants we vote in are theifs like mick wallace who even hired a hitman after some guy to get money back as he was loan sharking..


  • #48
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    EnterNow wrote: »
    No, it's more that most people just lack basic intelligence.

    I was just about to post similar. Common sense is in reality uncommon sense.


  • #49
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    I remember watching Reeling in the years about the year the National Lottery was introduced and he was asked what he'd do if he won money on a scratch ticket.
    I buy a country house and a yacht and maybe an island was his response.
    His ambition was to be haughey mark 2 even then!!!!


  • #50
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    leeroybrown wrote: »
    This is the man who signed Charlie Haughey's cheques, took payments from "Paddy the Plasterer" and most importantly presided over an era where Fianna Fáil wasted the product of this country's great ear of prosperity. That's his legacy!
    DrumSteve wrote: »
    Hes a spoofer who got found out.
    Ms.M wrote: »
    Economic recklessness. Trying to keep everybody happy and get votes at the expense of economic stability. Ignoring advice. Being corrupt.


    Wearing canary yellow trousers.
    Kensington wrote: »
    Social partnership was a complete and utter disaster (high inflation, unsustainable social welfare costs, irreversible benchmarking for PS?).

    The celtic tiger was built on a makey-uppy bubble.

    Elections bought on the back of super-low tax rates but our health, education, road, rail, electricity, broadband and water infrastructure are in complete tatters due to lack of investment and mismanagement.

    Bertie Ahern got in, let the good times roll without any regard for the future, lined his pockets and those of his mates and then bailed out when he saw the whole cherade about to topple over in spectacular fashion.

    And that is what I hope historians will remember in twenty, thirty, forty years time.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    All the above and more.
    This is a man that also deregulated the banks just so that his "Drumcondra Mafia" (see this link) mates could take advantage of the country so they could rape it and the Irish people further.

    The future generations of Ireland should read the above book linked, as part of their future school civics education and thus learn to recognise further future signs of similar things happening.

    "Those that refuse to learn from history - are doomed to repeat it."
    ...Which brings us to the post below...
    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    And yet FF is still the largest party in opposition and making gains in the polls - they must have done something right by at least some people...

    People are human. That means as well as raising to great heights of achievements - they are also stupid and at times willingly forgetful.
    Fianna Fail KNOWS that future generations will (in majority) look back at Irish history through summarised details, if they look back at all.
    Thus these future people/voters will accept the systemic cronyism and corruptions of the past, hope its gone. They will in hope and seeking alternatives to their present day hatreds they are suffering through as they once again go to ballot boxes, seek once more an alternative way to rid themselves of something in real-time they have to suffer at the hands of.
    The Irish game of political musical chairs continues!

    Long story short, to answer the above post, I will say this:

    "When a thirsty man stands in a desert with no water, he will be desperate enough to alternatively dig into bare and rough sand in hope of an alternative glimmer of help and hope."

    Its how the far-right Greek factions are rising now - its how the far-right wing parties of Germany, France and other European countries at times grow even today, its how Hitler and his fascist party rose to power, its how the Taliban were successful in taking a country at one stage, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and many more... its how people when they are near at their lowest - will grasp any alternative that is promising the sun, moon and stars. Promising they have "The way forward" - that is until they actually get into power - then we all suffer more. Do we not now?

    ...Thus people are forgetful, they do not learn from detailed history and the likes of Fianna Fail sadly rises again once more - for very little has with them indeed changed. There has been only window-dressing and this has been small to say the least.
    Only the PR tactics and words from them are ever more, getting more professional.
    Sadly some people are stupidly swallowing their crap!

    We must more educate our future people then!


  • #51
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    Any independants we vote in are theifs like mick wallace who even hired a hitman after some guy to get money back as he was loan sharking..

    Careful now!!:D


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  • #52
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    I don't buy that. Its actually more to do with voting for your local guy because he is the one going to get money spent where you live. Until our national politicians get away from this attitude it will never change. Local councillors should have greater control over local budgets with elections every two years. With the introduction of property taxes we should have greater say on how that money is spent locally.

    It could still be argued that if that's your incentive to elect someone in government, your short sighted & foolish.

    It's all talk promise yes promise anything you want promise, until they've voted in. From that moment on, it's all slither ssss & other snakey stuff.

    "It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in", heard that before & how true it is. Bertie Ahern was a very smart, cunning & skilfull 'politician', I'd say he laughs all the way to the bank today. As for what he should be remembered for? I'd say he should be remembered for making our recession far, far worse that it would have been otherwise.


  • #53
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    Here was a man who spent his entire life (think he was elected in his early 20's) in public service.

    No offence OP, but I can't help laughing when this line is trotted out.

    Can we take it from this that he didn't get paid handsomely for his years in public service?

    How is 'public service' really any different than 'private service' other than the gold plated pensions?


  • #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    The celtic tiger happened due to the labour and fg government of the 90s devaluing the punt. We then became an attractive country to do business in especially for US multinational companies. We were a cheap, english speaking country on the outskirts of europe. Bertie had nothing to do with the celtic tiger.

    I thought it was FF who devalued under Reynolds? Celtic Tiger came about because of succession of reasonably good governments from 1987-1997 and arguably 1997-2001.

    Anyway, while Bertie will get credit for what seems to be an enduring peace, he will go down as a man who presided the overheating of the Irish economy, the man who took no action to deflate the property bubble, who unsustainably increased public expenditure but possibly worst of all, the man who had the means to do anything during his tenure but instead did nothing lasting or constructive.

    Edit: He also lied to the Tribunal.


  • #55
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    juan.kerr wrote: »

    How is 'public service' really any different than 'private service' other than the gold plated pensions?

    In ahern's case, the free house, the trips to Manchester, the state merc, the 24 hour security we still pay for etc etc etc...........

    Just as an aside, is the money ahern earns giving after dinner speeches in Nigeria:eek: on how to run an economy and a banking sector (I kid you not:D:D:D), taxable in Ireland?


  • #56
    CL7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 684 ✭✭✭CL7


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

    Because some people when it comes down to it have no integrity. Others are either stupid or ignorant.


  • #57
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    CL7 wrote: »
    Because some people when it comes down to it have no integrity. Others are either stupid or ignorant.

    But that's somewhat dismissive of the large numbers who intend voting that way. Localism is still a strong force in Irish politics - the fact that the Healy-Rae's can still be elected shows that!


  • #58
    Profiler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭Profiler


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    I'm really not - I actually feel for him as a human being. For a man like that who has spent his life in politics, to be exiled from his own party, hounded by the media, with a reputation in tatters must be tough for anyone, including Bertie.

    He was a very popular politician in his day, and FF are rising in the polls - if what he/they did is irreversable, then why would that be?

    Ahern's "popularity" was fake. Those who supported him didn't know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    As for his reputation being in tatters and the person who did that is Ahern himself.

    The first step to reversing the attitude towards him is an admission of guilt and for him to tell the truth about what went on.

    However Ahern will never tell the truth and will never admit he is wrong.

    As for sympathy, I have no sympathy for the liar at all, may he rot in a jail cell for a long time.

    Remember when the first of the voices were saying we are on a path to serious problems Bertie told them to shut up or they might talk us into trouble he then went on said

    "Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide..." :mad:

    The ordinary men women and children of Ireland who have to deal on a day to day basis with the mess Bertie and his cronies created, they are the people I have sympathy for.


  • #59
    CL7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 684 ✭✭✭CL7


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    But that's somewhat dismissive of the large numbers who intend voting that way. Localism is still a strong force in Irish politics - the fact that the Healy-Rae's can still be elected shows that!
    If someone votes for a corrupt politician for short term gain then they have no integrity. If they can't see the corruption then they're either stupid or ignorant. What other options are there? Calling it "localism" doesn't change reality.


  • #60
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,299 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    and no other Taoiseach spent so much time with his constituents looking after their needs

    When you are Taoiseach you are meant to be running the country. Not getting medical cards for your neighbours. :rolleyes:

    No wonder the country is f***ed.


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  • #61
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    In a sense Bertie was just in a position where he could exploit us all.
    Any gombeen politician would have done the same, if they didn't have scruples.

    He had a choice and he took the easy route, probably knowing it would ruin us but hoping no-one would find out.


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