This turf cutting row - will Europe ever know?

Capt'n Midnight · 22-06-2012 04:23PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Bogs are a natural carbon sink so will be a key part of our carbon trading credits in the future. Cutting them will ruin this so they should be protected.

clearing bogs to grow 'renewable' palm oil has a break even time of about 120 years,

Capt'n Midnight · 22-06-2012 04:26PM

Feathers wrote: »

Yeah & they're telling us that the environment needs to be "protected" too, after we've been safely burning coal for ~250 years. What nonsense will those wacko bureaucrats come up with next, eh? :rolleyes:

It's important to note that half of the CO2 has been released in the last 50 years and the rate continues to increase exponentially.

Compare it to logging the rainforest , or taking water from the Aral Sea. Both have been going on for ages, but the drastic changes are recent.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-06-2012 04:32PM

Immaculate Pasta wrote: »

Fuck Europe lads. I say we take the loan and put it towards a giant fan to be built along the East Coast. Then we default on our loans, turn the fan on which will propell us over to America. Our neighbour can then be America and our island can just be off Boston and New York. They'll look after us :cool:

How are things in Puerto Rico these days ?

le la rat · 22-06-2012 04:34PM

Leave that sod down, put your hands up and step away from the turf.

K-9 · 22-06-2012 04:58PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

agreed - its the typical "i'm alright jack" syndrome that has seeped into this country with the pretend celtic tiger.

not a word being said about bord na mona and what they are doing to the bogs....oh and before people go spouting about them using a blanket bog instead of a raised bog I'd say look it up and see exactly what bog they are exploiting....oh wait, but thats okay - its a big corporation ....carry on then :rolleyes:

Unbelievable! Somebody who is backing the right to do what they want to these bogs, moaning about the "i'm alright jack" mentality!

Ray Palmer · 22-06-2012 05:06PM

Lima Golf wrote: »

It amazes me to read all the comments from people this doesnt directly affect saying how we shouldn't be allowed to cut turf and we should basically lie down, let the government walk all over us.

Yet when the governments actions affects ye personally, take for example the €100 household charge, theres uproar over a feckin €100. It just goes to show how self centred people are.

While it doesn't effect directly it does effect us. The fine and environmental effect.
The selfish nature is actually by those continuing to cut. Looking out for themselves regardless of everyone else.
It is very close to cutting down a oak forest. You can't knock down a protected structure either. Lots of people in urban environments are also restricted by planning laws way above those in rural environments.

suitseir · 22-06-2012 06:05PM

Lima Golf wrote: »

Ive grown up with a turf fire in the range in the kitchen every day and our little country cottage won't be the same without it! It heats our water, our radiators and we even use the range for cooking. We own our bog, why should we be banned from using the land for its intended purpose?

Turf cutting is an Irish tradition, part of our heritage and culture in many areas of the country. If a certain minority group stated that it was part of their heritage and culture there'd practically be TDs there with wellies on, ready to foot it for them.

Sure, use briquettes instead:D

Lima Golf · 22-06-2012 06:18PM

Quote
While it doesn't effect directly it does effect us. The fine and environmental effect.
The selfish nature is actually by those continuing to cut. Looking out for themselves regardless of everyone
Quote

I do understand that the fine affects others not just the bog owners. Every penny spent by the government affects everybody in the state. Just because it is costing money at the moment doesn't mean people should accept it and move on. I dont believe the people cutting bog are being selfish. They are trying to stand up and challenge a decision which they feel is wrong. Ireland isn't a dictatorship. We have the right to protest and challenge decisions.

Also that's a very broad statement to make that people in urban environments are restricted by planning laws way above those in rural areas. Where is the evidence to support that? Just because you live in the country doesn't mean you can build what you like where you like. We obviously go through the same planning permission procedure.

MagicSean · 22-06-2012 07:01PM

spiritcrusher wrote: »

You could if you owned owned the forest. And many people do in fact cut their own trees for firewood. Mad isn't it?
Anyway, these people own their bogs, either by buying it with their own money or inheriting it.

Aren't there rules preventing you cutting down trees indiscriminately, even on your own property?

Intensive Care Bear · 22-06-2012 07:56PM

NIMAN wrote: »

And can't see officials from Europe standing around these bogs all over the country to see if anyone is cutting on them.

They might employ bog marshals

Taxi...

Chinasea · 22-06-2012 08:06PM

As ususal Ireland can't work out all by itself that turfing cutting is a dum ass thing to do - or maybe we can use the big holes left by the raped bogs to dump all our abandoned:

Children
Horses
Dogs
Cats
Coke bottles
JP Blue cigarette boxes
notions of actually caring about the environment and even
The Future

Thank goodness for the EU.

Feathers · 22-06-2012 08:47PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Feathers wrote: »

What if you bought the forest specifically so you'd have firewood & were then banned from getting it?

If the government doesn't want people cutting turf, they should buy their land off them for what's worth.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that there is no restriction on how much wood you can take from any piece of forest you own, and no legislation forcing you to re-plant the trees you cut down?

I didn't mention forestry as a shining, perfect analogy (though I admit I'm ignorant about laws on replanting, wouldn't mind seeing your links on those, thanks), the previous poster mentioned it & I was expanding on this.

When the bog was purchased, it was understood that all of the turf in it could be used/sold. If the government brings in a law to change that, I don't think it's unreasonable that people should be properly compensated. Twas a simple point, I thought - sorry if it lacked clarity for you.

MagicSean · 22-06-2012 09:09PM

Feathers wrote: »

I didn't mention forestry as a shining, perfect analogy (though I admit I'm ignorant about laws on replanting, wouaaldn't mind seeing your links on those, thanks), the previous poster mentioned it & I was expanding on this.

When the bog was purchased, it was understood that all of the turf in it could be used/sold. If the government brings in a law to change that, I don't think it's unreasonable that people should be properly compensated. Twas a simple point, I thought - sorry if it lacked clarity for you.

Forget about forests. it's even illegal to chop down a tree in your own backyard if it's been there a while.

mikom · 22-06-2012 09:13PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Forget about forests. it's even illegal to chop down a tree in your own backyard if it's been there a while.

It is not illegal once you obtain a felling licence.
It also depends on the variety and distance from the house as to whether you will even require a felling licence.
There are many variables as to what trees are fair game without a felling licence.

2 stroke · 22-06-2012 10:33PM

Immaculate Pasta wrote: »

Fuck Europe lads. I say we take the loan and put it towards a giant fan to be built along the East Coast. Then we default on our loans, turn the fan on which will propell us over to America. Our neighbour can then be America and our island can just be off Boston and New York. They'll look after us :cool:

Shhhh. What do you think all of those windmills are for. When we have enough of them built, the plan is to power them up with electricity from our turf fired power stations and America here we come.

Cookie_Monster · 23-06-2012 03:39AM

Pedant wrote: »

What gives you the right to dictate what people can do with their own land?

it's not me dictating, it's a law that is being implemented by an elected government.

OpenYourEyes · 23-06-2012 04:41AM

bastados wrote: »

A lot of countries openly refuse to go along with EU regulations...do we have to play the model example of shining bureaucratic bullshiite?

We're actually the second worst country in the EU for environmental regulations!
The worst country (can't remember exactly what one it is) is one of the 10 countries that are only a part of the EU in the last decade or so - basically we'd be the worst if we didnt have a 30year head start on them! And theres 9 countries that we did have a 30year head start on and they're still better than us!

fasttalkerchat · 23-06-2012 04:48AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Forget about forests. it's even illegal to chop down a tree in your own backyard if it's been there a while.

Found this out the hard way but we had a solution! Neighbours tree was annoying us for years. After they sold the house but before someone moved it we "almost" cut it down. Allowing it to fall naturally during the night.

OpenYourEyes · 23-06-2012 05:42AM

The bogs are being protected because they are a avery rare habitat that are home to some very unique species of plants/animals/birds/etc, I recommend some research into the benefits and necessity of biodiversity if you havnt already. They also hold huge amounts of carbon and water
The bogs protected are only a small proportion of the country's total, the ones protected were chosen based primarily on the scientific evidence, not parish politics or any kind of favouritism or any kind of grudge against rural people or anything like that - objective science!
Descriptions of turfcutting that refer to it as a tradition conveniently ignore the fact that large scale machinery is used for the vast majority of turfcutting these days!
The majority of turfcutters will not be pushed over the poverty line by not being able to cut turf - and compensation in the form of fuel and money are available anyways! Having paid attention to press coverage on this for the last few years, the turfcutters tend to flip-flop between "its not about money" and "the money isnt good enough" in every second press release!
Talking to a guy I know, his Father paid around 600euro for a decent patch of bog and is now being offerred a lot more than that by the government to stop cutting on it - he said to his father he should take their arm off when he was offerred it!
From what I can tell there has actually been very good uptake for the compensation packages! Only a minority are left and causing the current problems, and they're supposedly mostly the contractors who make a healthy profit every year from it - nothing to do with tradition or cold winters!

Also:

Ireland was one of the countries who helped draw up the Habitats Directive!
We're the 2nd worst country for enforcing it!
As of around 1996 there was the opportunity for the turfcutters to be proactive about this and reach a solution they might be happier with - and as of 10years ago they knew what bogs were designated - Ireland was given 10years extra to sort it out and nothing was done until now!
We're going to be fined for every day we dont enforce the ban, and it'll probably be backdated as far back as that 10years too!

MagicSean · 23-06-2012 10:21AM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Found this out the hard way but we had a solution! Neighbours tree was annoying us for years. After they sold the house but before someone moved it we "almost" cut it down. Allowing it to fall naturally during the night.

That's illegal in so many ways

fasttalkerchat · 23-06-2012 02:31PM

MagicSean wrote: »

That's illegal in so many ways

Indeed it is. Although to be fair, we could have got the tree removed legally because of its size.

Rasheed · 23-06-2012 05:33PM

Ok, I can see both points.
I'm from 'bog country', we own a bog, we are going for the compensation, which I think is fair but I'll miss the turf.
Are the government going to pay for airplanes every year?
I dont really see how they are going to stop every bog owner cutting turf. They might do it ths year because of all the media etc but what about next year and year after?
Are we going to have a 'neighbours snitching on neighbours job'?

OpenYourEyes · 23-06-2012 05:51PM

Rasheed wrote: »

Ok, I can see both points.
I'm from 'bog country', we own a bog, we are going for the compensation, which I think is fair but I'll miss the turf.
Are the government going to pay for airplanes every year?
I dont really see how they are going to stop every bog owner cutting turf. They might do it ths year because of all the media etc but what about next year and year after?
Are we going to have a 'neighbours snitching on neighbours job'?

Surely the same could be said for any law and its enforcement?

Eventually iI'd assume it'd come down to a combo of the majority people accepting and abiding by the law, and then some monitoring by authorities and maybe some reporting by other people yeah.

And paying for airplanes is hardly a major issue given that the alternative is a fine of thousands of euro per day. I think the fines are €25k a day? So as long as the cost of aerial monitoring is less than that it makes sense to do it until the problem has largely been resolved, then relying on less intensive monitoring to ensure there's no more turfcutting after that!

Rasheed · 23-06-2012 06:04PM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Surely the same could be said for any law and its enforcement?

Eventually iI'd assume it'd come down to a combo of the majority people accepting and abiding by the law, and then some monitoring by authorities and maybe some reporting by other people yeah.

And paying for airplanes is hardly a major issue given that the alternative is a fine of thousands of euro per day. I think the fines are €25k a day? So as long as the cost of aerial monitoring is less than that it makes sense to do it until the problem has largely been resolved, then relying on less intensive monitoring to ensure there's no more turfcutting after that!

Ya makes sense what you re saying. Just wondered if they had any long term plan in place to make sure people didn't start cutting when the hype died down!

OpenYourEyes · 23-06-2012 06:19PM

Rasheed wrote: »

Ya makes sense what you re saying. Just wondered if they had any long term plan in place to make sure people didn't start cutting when the hype died down!

The way things are going they seem to barely have a short term plan!

But yeah I'd assume it'd be a mix of occassional checking-up by NPWS etc., and some reporting by concerned locals and NGO's then too!

fasttalkerchat · 23-06-2012 06:28PM

I get the feeling that we will see donedeal ads offering bags of turf delivered cheaper than the stuff in the shops no questions asked in a few months.

MadsL · 23-06-2012 07:01PM

You mean like this?

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/machinery/3533650
http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/heating/3493216

Pedant · 23-06-2012 10:06PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it's not me dictating, it's a law that is being implemented by an elected government.

Should you have the right to kill someone just because the law says so?

OpenYourEyes · 23-06-2012 10:07PM

Pedant wrote: »

Should you have the right to kill someone just because the law says so?

Depends! Should you have the right to make completely irrelevant comparisons just because the law says so?

fasttalkerchat · 23-06-2012 10:45PM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Depends! Should you have the right to make completely irrelevant comparisons just because the law says so?

There's a law for that? That's like putting chicken in lasagne!

This turf cutting row - will Europe ever know?

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