Why cinemas can go to hell, and I will pirate [ MOD WARNING IN OP ]

22-06-2012 01:39PM

If you don't go to the movies you're probably still going to spend that money somewhere else.

You might want a faster internet connection, so you're supporting Irish jobs in the ISP industry. The more people pirate, the more work there will be for Irish engineers and construction workers, because we'll need to upgrade our infrastructure.

Most pirates have TBs of storage, so they're creating jobs for hard-working Asians who make HDDs. These guys have a much lower standard of living than anyone in Hollywood, so the more money we can send their way the better.

If I don't go out to the cinema (because ive pirate all the movies) im probably still going to want to go out anyway, maybe to a restaurant or bar. So more money and jobs for those industries.

Im joking of course, but its impossible to logically argue with any of the points i've made. If money doesnt go one place, it goes somewhere else, that's how the world works. Hollywood doesnt deserve your money more than any other industry, it has to win you over and earn your money. And it certainly isn't winning the OP over.

22-06-2012 01:40PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Most of what I download, I wouldn't have parted with cash to watch in the first place. When I can get a babysitter, can afford it and there's something I'd like to see on the big screen, I'll head to the cinema for it.

Things like The Avengers will be torrented massively as soon as DVD rips are available because kids will watch something like that over and over again and no parent is going to fork out the cash to keep bringing them to see it in the cinema.

I've hundreds of DVD's and tbh, these days I'm as likely to download something I already have on DVD than to route through the DVD collection to find it and then sit through ads giving out to me about pirating on a source I've paid for.

The movie industry needs to learn that they need to offer "better than free". Pack the DVD's and BR's with good extra materials, ensure cinemas are monitoring the customers they let in and ejecting trouble-makers without other patrons having to make complaints etc.

Yes, I'm stealing copyright but in doing so I don't deny anyone else the use of that resource, nor am I denying anyone an income as were I not downloading it, I'd simply be watching whatever was on telly instead or re-watching DVD's I've already bought.

I love how you justify stealing a film and then in your sig you are asking people to go to itunes and buy your brother's bands single. Surely if I were to simply torrent the single I wouldn't be denying anyone else the use of that resource, nor am I denying anyone an income.

Piracy is something that is here to stay and with many studios considering including download figures into box office then it could prove a valuable tool. Speaking to a few producers over the past months I've been surprised by how when considering sequels they are taking into consideration the number of illegal downloads as well as box office. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out and may lead to a change in the way studios distribute material.

What I love is how in the US they are offering consumers a number of versions of the same Blu-Ray. You can pick up the new Sherlock Holmes in 2 different versions, there is the extras packed special edition for about 20 dollars or the movie only version for around 10 dollars. Now as far as I'm concerned it's the best thing the studios could do right now. Much as I enjoyed the first Sherlock Holmes film I really would not pay anywhere close to 20 euro to watch or own the sequel, but were I able to pick up the film sans extras on Blu for a tenner then I'd be more than happy to buy it on release day.

Handsome Bob · 22-06-2012 01:47PM

Whichever side of the argument you're on, you have to agree with one thing: to force someone to buy 3D glasses is absolutely incredulous. Never heard of that one before, I usually used either UCI (now Odeon) or Cineworld and I think I've always been asked "do you need the glasses."

That really is ****ing outrageous.

johnny_ultimate · 22-06-2012 01:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Im joking of course, but its impossible to logically argue with any of the points i've made. If money doesnt go one place, it goes somewhere else, that's how the world works. Hollywood doesnt deserve your money more than any other industry, it has to win you over and earn your money. And it certainly isn't winning the OP over.

Again, this argument is focused directly at Hollywood and 'the industry', which is actually where the same argument falls apart on various levels.

If the only films the OP is going to pay and see this year are TDKR and The Hobbit (maybe The Master) then that's automatically making a huge moral and economic statement. It means equally excellent (if not more so) films are being ignored, while pumping money in to the Hollywood machine. The OP suggests that there has been a decrease in the quality of cinema. I couldn't disagree more. This year already we've had dozens of superb films, or at the very least very interesting ones - Margaret, The Turin Horse, Himizu, The Raid, Martha Marcy May Marlene, Moonrise Kingdom, Monsieur Lazhar, Cabin in the Woods, Young Adult, Your Sister's Sister... I could go on. All films as worthy of our time as Sanjuro (that superb Kurosawa film) is. Not to mention upcoming films from a huge range of proven directors: from Michael Haneke to Leos Carax.

Would a much more proactive approach not be, rather than damn the cinema as an artform and entertainment venue entirely, to go to see some of these films instead? Support the underdog various people here are refusing to acknowledge? Go to the cinemas that do not charge you double figures? If you love cinema, if you thoroughly enjoy the cinema experience, and if you want to support it, there's only one statement that isn't biting the hand that feeds.

22-06-2012 01:54PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Again, this argument is focused directly at Hollywood, which is where the argument falls apart on various levels.

If the only films the OP is going to pay and see this year are TDKR and The Hobbit (maybe The Master) then that's automatically making a huge moral and economic statement. It means equally excellent (if not more so) films are being ignored, while pumping money in to the Hollywood machine. The OP suggests that there has been a decrease in the quality of cinema. I couldn't disagree more. This year already we've had dozens of superb films, or at the very least very interesting ones - Margaret, The Turin Horse, Himizu, The Raid, Martha Marcy May Marlene, Moonrise Kingdom, Monsieur Lazhar, Cabin in the Woods, Young Adult, Your Sister's Sister... I could go on. All films as worthy of our time as Sanjuro (that superb Kurosawa film) is. Not to mention upcoming films from a huge range of proven directors: from Michael Haneke to Leos Carax.

Would a much more proactive approach not be, rather than damn the cinema as an artform and entertainment venue entirely, to go to see some of these films instead? Support the underdog various people here are refusing to acknowledge? Go to the cinemas that do not charge you double figures? If you love cinema, if you thoroughly enjoy the cinema experience, and if you want to support it, there's only one statement that isn't biting the hand that feeds.

Have to agree, looking at all the upcoming titles this year and there are very few Blockbusters of big films I'm going to go out of my way to see but there are at least two dozen low budget/ art house (hate the term) films that I'll be going well out of my way to see on the big screen.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2012 01:58PM

I'd have more sympathy for the OP if he lived down the country and didn't have access to cheaper cinemas with better selections, but that's clearly not the case. I really think us Dubliners have nothing to complain about.

Sleepy · 22-06-2012 01:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I love how you justify stealing a film and then in your sig you are asking people to go to itunes and buy your brother's bands single. Surely if I were to simply torrent the single I wouldn't be denying anyone else the use of that resource, nor am I denying anyone an income.

Fair point, though the band themselves have most of the songs up on Youtube where they can be consumed for nothing anyway. They, like most musicians, make their money playing live. The charts are nothing more than a promotional tool: get into the Top 40 and radio stations will take notice of you, play your music and you get more people coming to your gigs.

Piracy is something that is here to stay and with many studios considering including download figures into box office then it could prove a valuable tool. Speaking to a few producers over the past months I've been surprised by how when considering sequels they are taking into consideration the number of illegal downloads as well as box office. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out and may lead to a change in the way studios distribute material.

What I love is how in the US they are offering consumers a number of versions of the same Blu-Ray. You can pick up the new Sherlock Holmes in 2 different versions, there is the extras packed special edition for about 20 dollars or the movie only version for around 10 dollars. Now as far as I'm concerned it's the best thing the studios could do right now. Much as I enjoyed the first Sherlock Holmes film I really would not pay anywhere close to 20 euro to watch or own the sequel, but were I able to pick up the film sans extras on Blu for a tenner then I'd be more than happy to buy it on release day.

That's exactly what I mean: they need to learn to package their stuff properly. Now Sherlock Holmes is a movie I wouldn't watch again but I can think of plenty of movies where the extras wouldn't bother me but I'd happily pay €5/6 for a "movie only" copy of the DVD/BR, particularly if it came without the pious "you wouldn't download a car" BS. For other things, e.g. The Game of Thrones box-sets, I'll happily pay a little more for extra content.

I don't seek to justify downloading. I do it in the full knowledge that it's illegal but I do stand by my point that no-one loses out by me watching that movie (except perhaps those who've paid for advertising on the television station I'd be watching otherwise, but then again I only ever see their ads when fast-forwarding anyway since anything I watch will have been DVR'd).

The studios receive a portion of what I pay UPC for my broadband and TV (albeit indirectly). They receive money from me when they release something utterly unmissable on a big screen (e.g. Avengers, Dark Knight etc.). They receive money from me when they release films I like on DVD at reasonable prices and had NetFlix a comparable selection to that which is currently available on torrent sites, they'd get a percentage of my subscription to that too since, like most, I wouldn't struggle to find an extra €10 a month to pay for it.

Yes, I'm getting far more from them than they'd like but the pot of money available for them to take from me is limited. The pirates offering is currently better than what the studios themselves are releasing: no ads, no unskippable lectures, no enforced 3D (which as someone with astigmatism doesn't work for me anyway), shorter-time lag from theatrical release than Netflix or DVD and free.

If the studios want to beat the pirates, they need to compete with them.

Mickeroo · 22-06-2012 02:00PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'd have more sympathy for the OP if he lived down the country and didn't have access to cheaper cinemas with better selections, but that's clearly not the case. I really think us Dubliners have nothing to complain about.

Ain't that the truth, I had to drive 2 hours to see The Raid and missed Moonrise Kingdom which was probably my most anticipated film of the year

Dublin sounds like a veritable cinema going paradise to me.

krudler · 22-06-2012 02:02PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'd have more sympathy for the OP if he lived down the country and didn't have access to cheaper cinemas with better selections, but that's clearly not the case. I really think us Dubliners have nothing to complain about.

this really, I'd kill for a indy cinema to be nearby, none of the three cinemas here are showing Moonrise Kingdom, only one showed The Raid for about a week.

its a catch 22 really, people go to big blockbusters which make cinemas money, yet complain theres nothing else on, the rare time a smaller movie does get a release nobody goes to it or pirates it as its "not worth" going to see in a cinema. Can't have it both ways you either support smaller movies or stop complaining about cinemas trying to make money any way they can and wait for the home release, which I would if I could more easily but I cant justify making a 4hr round trip to Dublin so I either have to wait for the blu/dvd or netflix, and the rare time a torrent.

Mickeroo · 22-06-2012 02:08PM

krudler wrote: »

this really, I'd kill for a indy cinema to be nearby, none of the three cinemas here are showing Moonrise Kingdom, only one showed The Raid for about a week.

its a catch 22 really, people go to big blockbusters which make cinemas money, yet complain theres nothing else on, the rare time a smaller movie does get a release nobody goes to it or pirates it as its "not worth" going to see in a cinema. Can't have it both ways you either support smaller movies or stop complaining about cinemas trying to make money any way they can and wait for the home release, which I would if I could more easily but I cant justify making a 4hr round trip to Dublin so I either have to wait for the blu/dvd or netflix, and the rare time a torrent.

The Eye/Omniplex in Galway are a good option if you drive, they get some of the smaller films, handier to get to than Dublin from Limerick I'd imagine. Both had Moonrise & the Raid on, only for a week or two though.

puffishoes · 22-06-2012 02:08PM

I have to agree with others if you were down the back of beyonds your actions on the day could be somewhat excused.

But go go ahead and pay the price and to THEN complain about the experience afterwards. by doing so your telling the particular cinema you're willing to take it anyway they want to give it and encourage their behavior.

Don't throw all the toys out of the pram do as Johnny suggests and get yourself to cinema's who are not pulling your pants down and offer a much wider spectrum of cinema these establishements should be rewarded and stop handing over the guts of 30e for something you don't want to see.

22-06-2012 02:19PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

The Eye/Omniplex in Galway are a good option if you drive, they get some of the smaller films, handier to get to than Dublin from Limerick I'd imagine. Both had Moonrise & the Raid on, only for a week or two though.

Problem with the Eye is that it can take them months to get a lot of the smaller films. They got Tree of Life a good 6 weeks after it was on in Dublin, reminded me of Ballina cinema who got Zodiac the week before it was out on DVD.

Mickeroo · 22-06-2012 02:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Problem with the Eye is that it can take them months to get a lot of the smaller films. They got Tree of Life a good 6 weeks after it was on in Dublin, reminded me of Ballina cinema who got Zodiac the week before it was out on DVD.

Yea its annoying alright, often times its the only option over this side of the country though.

Hyperbullet · 22-06-2012 02:25PM

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Whichever side of the argument you're on, you have to agree with one thing: to force someone to buy 3D glasses is absolutely incredulous. Never heard of that one before, I usually used either UCI (now Odeon) or Cineworld and I think I've always been asked "do you need the glasses."

That really is ****ing outrageous.

So they should be free? The cinema has to pay for the glasses, in the case of Dolby colour filtered systems they're incredibly expensive.

And don't take that as me having a go, just interested to hear what is the ideal scenario regarding 3D glasses.

johnny_ultimate · 22-06-2012 02:28PM

Hyperbullet wrote: »

And don't take that as me having a go, just interested to hear what is the ideal scenario regarding 3D glasses.

That someone burns them all in a massive bonfire, and we all pay a euro to watch them burn :pac:

Sad Professor · 22-06-2012 02:28PM

Hyperbullet wrote: »

So they should be free? The cinema has to pay for the glasses, in the case of Dolby colour filtered systems they're incredibly expensive.

And don't take that as me having a go, just interested to hear what is the ideal scenario regarding 3D glasses.

Bob was referring to the fact that in Vue 3D glasses are included on the price. You can't save money by bringing your own, such as in Cineworld.

Cokeistan · 22-06-2012 02:30PM

I agree completely, the prices now are extortionate. The cinema's in Ireland seem to be following the American model more and more each year.

Hyperbullet · 22-06-2012 02:34PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

That someone burns them all in a massive bonfire, and we all pay a euro to watch them burn :pac:

Have to agree with you there. 3D has been ruined by production companies making it a gimmick, rendering films into 3D during post production. When it's done right, like by Pixar for instance, it can look fantastic. But I'm burned out of every piece of sh*t film being in 3D now.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Bob was referring to the fact that in Vue 3D glasses are included on the price. You can't save money by bringing your own, such as in Cineworld.

Oh ok fair enough. Some places charge extra for glasses rental, where you give the glasses back in the end. Others charge you for the glasses and let you keep them. Depends on the system that's being run in the projection booth.

Galvasean · 22-06-2012 02:37PM

I also don't get the 'DVDs have too many ads on them which I'm not bothered sitting though so I download instead' argument. Surely it takes just as much time to find a good torrent and download the movie? You could just pop the DVD in and go make a cup of tea / read a thread on boards while you wait for the ads to finish.
Although I think the days of excessive ads on DVDs may be coming to an end as companies get wise to people's growing impatience/frustration. I remember a few years back rental copies had about ten minutes of trailers before the film started. I bought The Immortals (ex-rental from Xtra Vision) last week and the only ad was that 5 second 'THANK YOU' for supporting local film production ad. hardly worth powering up the lap top.

phil1nj · 22-06-2012 02:43PM

My local cinema is a UCI (now Odeon) one. The last couple of times that I've gone to see a movie with the kids I've brought them to a weekend showing before 1pm. The reason being that the prices are significantly lower at these times. Both movies were in 3D so that coupled with the obligatory drinks/sweets/popcorn was my justification for it. The kids didn't seem to mind but bringing them in the afternoon would have cost at least an extra 15Euro. I also don't understand why this theatre chain doesn't have some sort of loyalty program in place to reward regular movie goers (a smart card points based system would be fairly easy to implement).

I also think that the studios who make the big blockbuster movies should offer an incentive to cinema goers in the form of some sort of discount code to be used against the purchase of the DVD/Blu-Ray release of a blockbuster that people have already paid to see. My DVD collection consists of dozens of movies that I have already paid to see in the cinema but that I have decided to purchase for home vewing from new. I know of at least 5 major movie releases this year that I will end up purchasing on DVD even after seeing them in the cinema. Might take the sting out of the cost of paying through the nose at the box office. Ah well, it's nice to dream

22-06-2012 02:44PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Problem with the Eye is that it can take them months to get a lot of the smaller films. They got Tree of Life a good 6 weeks after it was on in Dublin, reminded me of Ballina cinema who got Zodiac the week before it was out on DVD.

That is more down to the distributor than anything else. In some cases, the distributor has decided it'd be a limited release only, which means that there might be one or two reels that go around to some cinemas in the whole country, so they each have to wait their turns.

Galvasean · 22-06-2012 02:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Im joking of course, but its impossible to logically argue with any of the points i've made. If money doesnt go one place, it goes somewhere else, that's how the world works. Hollywood doesnt deserve your money more than any other industry, it has to win you over and earn your money. And it certainly isn't winning the OP over.

Of course one can argue with that sentiment since it is a rather moot point.
The fact of the matter is if everyone collectively stopped paying money into the film industry (and instead spent it elsewhere) the film industry would go bankrupt and there would be no new movies. Now, you're probably thinking that is a very unlikely scenario, but even in smaller doses it does harm the film industry. As others have pointed out, perhaps not so much the big Hollywood blockbusters, but certainly the damage trickles down to smaller indue studios an their films.
It's a red herring to say, "Ah sure the money would just go elsewhere, like the offo/pub" when the topic at hand is discussing piracy's effects on the film industry, not the drinks trade.

Galvasean · 22-06-2012 02:51PM

phil1nj wrote: »

. I also don't understand why this theatre chain doesn't have some sort of loyalty program in place to reward regular movie goers (a smart card points based system would be fairly easy to implement).

I'm surprised more places don't have a Cineworld style card. It's not strictly a loyalty card though, more of a subscription, but it does include a 10% discount on food you buy there (which also applies to the bar). Plus there are 'card holder' only screenings. Little things like that make a big difference IMO.
The card is €20 a month. If you go to the cinema regularly it becomes great value.
Also, between things like pigsback.com, 02 treats etc. there are lots of ways to go to the cinema cost effectively, so pointing out the highest priced cinemas at peak times in order to justify piracy is somewhat either ignorant or dishonest IMO

OldNotWIse · 22-06-2012 02:52PM

Sanjuro wrote: »

No. That's why I wrote 'futilely.'

Futile

fu·tile/ˈfyo͞otl/

Adjective:
Incapable of producing any useful result; pointless.
Synonyms:
vain - useless - unavailing - fruitless - idle - nugatory

.

Oh right, sorry. I guess I forgot about that part after your post sent me to sleep and I hit my head off the desk

Sleep:
"to take the rest afforded by a suspension of voluntary bodily functions and the natural suspension, complete or partial, of consciousness; cease being awake."

krudler · 22-06-2012 02:53PM

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm surprised more places don't have a Cineworld style card. It's not strictly a loyalty card though, more of a subscription, but it does include a 10% discount on food you buy there (which also applies to the bar). Plus there are 'card holder' only screenings. Little things like that make a big difference IMO.
The card is €20 a month. If you go to the cinema regularly it becomes great value.
Also, between things like pigsback.com, 02 treats etc. there are lots of ways to go to the cinema cost effectively, so pointing out the highest priced cinemas at peak times in order to justify piracy is somewhat either ignorant or dishonest IMO

the o2 treats are dead handy €4 a ticket mon-thur for any omniplex, there's an omniples literally 5 mins walk from me so I often go there on days off to see smaller movies or stuff I'm not pushed about seeing with big crowds.

22-06-2012 02:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That is more down to the distributor than anything else. In some cases, the distributor has decided it'd be a limited release only, which means that there might be one or two reels that go around to some cinemas in the whole country, so they each have to wait their turns.

Know all that but it does make you wonder why with a film such as Zodiac, a cinema would wait till the week before a film came out before on DVD before screening it, especially considering that no other cinema had been showing it for the previous 6 weeks.

As for Tree of Life, there were 2 prints in the country which toured around which was a shame as the film deserved so much more. Would have loved to see it on one of the bigger screens in the Eye but they have that horrible habit of putting anything which could be considered art house in the tiny screen,

Sad Professor · 22-06-2012 02:56PM

The Cineworld Unlimited card is fantastic value. I'm seriously considering giving it a go for a month. I'd save a fortune. Vue really need to implement something similar. Alas, when I contacted them about it the answer was no.

Galvasean · 22-06-2012 03:00PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

The Cineworld Unlimited card is fantastic value. I'm seriously considering giving it a go for a month.

Unless they've changed the policy since I signed up you have to subscribe for a year, ie: You can't just buy a monthly pass (I wonder how many of those they'd sell on the week TDKR is released?).

Mickeroo · 22-06-2012 03:04PM

In Oz & NZ nearly every cinema has cheap tickets on a tuesday, turns what would usually be a dead night into a money spinner without detracting from the weekend crowds. Wish cinemas here would be as forward thinking. The one in westport is now a fiver on fridays for students which is great, but a cheap night for everyone is a missed opportunity imo.

g'em · 22-06-2012 03:04PM

krudler wrote: »

the o2 treats are dead handy €4 a ticket mon-thur for any omniplex, there's an omniples literally 5 mins walk from me so I often go there on days off to see smaller movies or stuff I'm not pushed about seeing with big crowds.

They're great! I used to go to the movies every Tuesday night with my Dad and my brother, and at €4 a pop sure you'd barely notice the money gone from your pocket.

I'm finding this thread really interesting actually, unlike my dear darling OP bf I'm not a movie buff in the slightest - I just like to watch stuff that entertains my brain. There's some great points made on all sides, and some rebuffs that can be made.

To the folks saying that we have our pick of the cinemas here in Dublin, you're right, we do and we can't complain on that score

But they obviously aren't all easily accessible from all parts of the city - for us now to avail of the €4 tickets we'd need to travel across the M50 by car (possibly equalling the more expensive ticket price in petrol?) or go to Coolock. I don't know if anyone has had the pleasure of a screening here at peak time... it doesn't usually go well

I don't shy away from paying decent money for a great service, but I think there's a discrepancy between the price charged and the quality of service received. In other words, I have no issue paying for the cinema, but when I'm overcharged it doesn't sit right. Making it mandatory for me to have to buy 3D glasses when I have my own pair in my bag that I paid for previously is more than a bit frustrating too. In all honesty we won't go back to the Vue cinema anytime soon as it's left a bit of a bad feeling. Shame, it's not a bad cinema, but now I'd rather spend the petrol money of heading out to Dun Laoghaire.

Is there anyone here who would genuinely dispute that €27.80 for two adult tickets on a Thursday to a 3D screening (when no 2D version was available) and forcing the purchase is too much?

Why cinemas can go to hell, and I will pirate [** MOD WARNING IN OP **]

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Why cinemas can go to hell, and I will pirate [ MOD WARNING IN OP ]