This turf cutting row - will Europe ever know?

runawaybishop · 22-06-2012 11:31AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

all of a sudden this 1% of bogs needs to be "protected" because somebody in german says so? :roll eyes: after millions of years with no problem.

how convenient.

The scariest thing is the little runt kenny, who just so happens to come from bog country himself has no problem selling out his neighbors to get a thumbs up from angela and her cronies. Shameful.

So thats the fishing tradition gone, the bog tradition gone, - what will be the next irish tradition to suffer.

We haven't been cutting turf for millions of years though. This is about protecting our environment. If your tradition involves the rape of my country then I don't really give a **** how much you'd like to keep doing it.

MadsL · 22-06-2012 11:32AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

So thats the fishing tradition gone, the bog tradition gone, - what will be the next irish tradition to suffer.

The traditional inferiority complex perhaps, along with the traditional notion that "no-one gets to tell me what to do, so I will spoil everything for everyone, that will show em."

Chips on shoulders to be banned next I reckon.

Cool Mo D · 22-06-2012 11:34AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

all of a sudden this 1% of bogs needs to be "protected" because somebody in german says so? :roll eyes: after millions of years with no problem.

how convenient.

The scariest thing is the little runt kenny, who just so happens to come from bog country himself has no problem selling out his neighbors to get a thumbs up from angela and her cronies. Shameful.

So thats the fishing tradition gone, the bog tradition gone, - what will be the next irish tradition to suffer.

It's not 'all of a sudden' - we've known this is coming for 20 years. And it has nothing to do with Germany. Raised bogs are a very rare ecosystem, and Ireland is very quickly losing them. Cutting, including hand cutting have destroyed most of them, it's hardly a huge imposition to try and save a few.

And lets point out - our fishing tradition is gone because the sea has been drained of fish, to the extent that cod, which was once one of the most plentiful animals on the planet is now endangered. Our bogs are almost gone the same way.

But yes, it's clearly a plot by the cackling Germans to force us to give up a handful of fuel save some of our national heritage. The horror!

bnt · 22-06-2012 11:41AM

There's another reason to be careful about where and what you cut: landslides. The peat is a thin layer, often on top of clay, and if you remove a critical bit of turf, half a hillside comes down on your head next time it rains. Landslides are pretty common in Ireland - see this report for details.

runawaybishop · 22-06-2012 11:45AM

bnt wrote: »

There's another reason to be careful about where and what you cut: landslides. The peat is a thin layer, often on top of clay, and if you remove a critical bit of turf, half a hillside comes down on your head next time it rains. Landslides are pretty common in Ireland - see this report for details.

The bogs also soak up tonnes of water. A few years back a group of locals drained around their bogs so they could more easily get the cutters in which resulted in the land around the bogs becoming flooded - you can imagine how happy the people that owned the surrounding land were.

gbee · 22-06-2012 12:00PM

Conspiracy theory.

There was an incident involving either US or UK nuclear bomber that lost it's packages and the eggs are believed not to have been recovered.

Some think the eggs may be still buried in a bog somewhere in Ireland.

robp · 22-06-2012 12:03PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

you do know that it is only CERTAIN bogs that they want protected. Not All - kind of defeats that argument doesn't it.

This level of protection is being enforced on these bogs because these are unusually pristine examples. Bogs are not like forests, once their hydrology is changed often it cannot be restored and they dry out and oxidise. Inference with bog hydrology varies on a scale depending on method. Peat moss for compost extraction by Bord na Mona is the most destructive while hopper extraction is somewhere in the middle. This is why Bord na Mona bogs simply cannot be restored as active peat forming wetlands. Bord na Mona has committed to restoring about 50-70% of its land to nature once the peat is gone but the ecosystems which will be created will be utterly different to those that was there before Bord na Mona was there. Different species and different habitats.

fishy fishy · 22-06-2012 12:05PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It's not 'all of a sudden' - we've known this is coming for 20 years. And it has nothing to do with Germany. Raised bogs are a very rare ecosystem, and Ireland is very quickly losing them. Cutting, including hand cutting have destroyed most of them, it's hardly a huge imposition to try and save a few.

And lets point out - our fishing tradition is gone because the sea has been drained of fish, to the extent that cod, which was once one of the most plentiful animals on the planet is now endangered. Our bogs are almost gone the same way.

But yes, it's clearly a plot by the cackling Germans to force us to give up a handful of fuel save some of our national heritage. The horror!

you really should check out the fishing issue - it may surprise you that while you have been convinced that the sea has been drained of fish, it was only the IRISH fisherman that suffered - in fact they could sit in the little boats and watch the European fisherman catch as much as they liked. Why - because Irish had sold their fishing quota down the swanny.

Someday people will understand but by then we won't have a pot left to p*ss in.

Pride Fighter · 22-06-2012 12:23PM

Bogs are a natural carbon sink so will be a key part of our carbon trading credits in the future. Cutting them will ruin this so they should be protected.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 22-06-2012 12:27PM

malachyscott wrote: »

I was listening to it on the radio today. Someone put forward the argument that they deserve to cut the turf because it fuels their fires and keeps their family warm.

If this is their argument then I'm fully behind banning it. I don't have a bog in my back yard, I have to buy turf.

I dont see your point.
Kinda hard to buy turf, if the people you buy it off cant cut it.

As an ex Bora na Mona employee, it sickens me that people cant cut turf to heat their homes, however, Bord na Mona (semi state company) are able to harvest literally millions of tones of peat every year

fishy fishy · 22-06-2012 12:32PM

Maren Broad Heart wrote: »

I dont see your point.
Kinda hard to buy turf, if the people you buy it off cant cut it.

As an ex Bora na Mona employee, it sickens me that people cant cut turf to heat their homes, however, Bord na Mona (semi state company) are able to harvest literally millions of tones of peat every year

ah sure we sold off our gas and oil rights as well - just gave them away - this country is just like an idiot that has been out all night on the p*ss - buying rounds for everyone, being the "big man" - then waking up in the morning and wondering where all the money went, and why are all our best "friends" from last night laughing their ar*ses off at us.

softtouch.com

Wise up people.

K-9 · 22-06-2012 01:20PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

all of a sudden this 1% of bogs needs to be "protected" because somebody in german says so? :roll eyes: after millions of years with no problem.

how convenient.

The scariest thing is the little runt kenny, who just so happens to come from bog country himself has no problem selling out his neighbors to get a thumbs up from angela and her cronies. Shameful.

So thats the fishing tradition gone, the bog tradition gone, - what will be the next irish tradition to suffer.

This was agreed back in the early 90's by your Government, not imposed by some German! :rolleyes:

Such a big deal over 53/54 bogs, something like 2% of our bogs.

Feathers · 22-06-2012 01:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Big difference between clearing land to grow beefburgers for fat Americans and cutting turf to heat your home!

In terms of the reasons that you want to do it, not in terms of the destruction of affected habitats/systems.

fishy fishy wrote: »

all of a sudden this 1% of bogs needs to be "protected" because somebody in german says so? :roll eyes: after millions of years with no problem.

Yeah & they're telling us that the environment needs to be "protected" too, after we've been safely burning coal for ~250 years. What nonsense will those wacko bureaucrats come up with next, eh? :rolleyes:

Biggins · 22-06-2012 01:57PM

prinz wrote: »

Most of which are urban myths and total bollix. There was never a bendy banana law, or a curved cucumber law. What there was was an EU wide approved system of grading certain products so that Joe Bloggs in Ireland knew approximately what he'd be getting if he ordered an artic full of cucumbers from Portugal.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/communication/take_part/myths/fact_033_en.htm

Strange that for an urban myth and bollix - they had to look again at the the laws then!
Number 3:

In a win for weirdly shaped vegetables across Europe, the majority of EU states voted to repeal laws which banned "free of abnormal curvature" in cucumbers and bananas three years ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/11/25/top-5-crazy-eu-demands_n_1112685.html#s498233&title=Bananas_

A bunch of euro-MPs tried to bring back old "uniform standardization parameters" (Google it - don't take my word for it - myth? No.) which would forbid the sale of straight bananas and curly cucumbers. Fortunately this proposal was eventually defeated in the European Parliament by non-foolish heads.
Too tired to google it - here is one more helpful link which DOES clear up other myths also: http://www.businessinsider.com/eu-directives-law-2011-12?op=1

...Plus a few others including a fore mentioned!

* EU rules ban sale of 'too small' kiwis. A wholesaler was banned from selling a consignment of kiwis due to the fact that based on EU laws they were too small. The wholesaler said that he wasn't even permitted to give away the 5,000 Chilean fruits. The required minimum kiwi weight is 62g, but his were mostly 58g. Read more about that at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2199214/EU-rules-ban-sale-of-too-small-kiwis.html.

* EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html

*

Thousands of passengers are being forced to hop off buses midway through journeys to comply with crazy EU laws. A Brussels ruling has banned local services longer than 30 miles to ensure drivers don’t spend too long at the wheel. As a result, drivers have to pull in as they hit that limit and order everyone off their bus.

They then change the route number on the front and invite passengers to jump back on before resuming the trip. Western Greyhound has split its Newquay to Plymouth route in three — even though it uses a single driver throughout. Passengers must buy three tickets and break their journey twice.
Managing director Mark Howarth said: “It’s a farce. We have to kick customers off as soon as the driver hits the 30-mile limit. “Often it’s in the middle of nowhere. Passengers think we’re crazy.”

Ssee: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-545010/EU-forces-bus-company-dump-passengers-half-hour.html

The EU like everything else, is not perfect - but don't just accept that all you hear against the EU is a myth.
You know sometimes it is not.

On a lighter side - here is some more Europe (and world) daftness!
http://www.funnyordie.com/lists/66030f8b50/weirdest-laws-from-europe

Want more?

* The latest really crazy policy was issued by the Greek government. They have decided to add the following “occupations” to the list of state-recognized disability categories: exhibitionists, pedophiles and kleptomaniacs. The list also includes pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists. They are now qualified to receive up to 35% in disability benefits.
See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/greek-disabled-unions-aghast-at-inclusion-of-pedophiles-pyromaniacs-on-disability-list/2012/01/09/gIQAmJbllP_story.html

1. The head of any dead whale found on the British coast is legally the property of the King. The tail, on the other hand, belongs to the Queen - in case she needs the bones for her corset!

2. In London it is illegal to flag down a taxi if you have the plague

3. In Florida, unmarried women who parachute on Sundays can be jailed

4. In the UK, a man who feels compelled to urinate in public can do so only if he aims for the rear wheel of his car, and keeps his right hand firmly on his vehicle

5. The European Parliament has banned the terms 'Miss' and 'Mrs' in case they offend female MEPs

6. There is an EU directive stating that every pair of rubber boots must be supplied with a user's manual in 12 languages!

7. The ban on ugly vegetables and fruits was overturned by the EU, but there is one product that did not escape EU regulation - bananas remain subject to rules which stipulate, among other things, that they must be at least 14cm long and 27mm thick in the middle!

8. According to EU legislation, eggs can’t be sold by the dozen. Eggs join other products, such as oranges and bread rolls, and will be sold by weight instead of by the number contained in a packet

9. Under the UK’s Tax Avoidance Schemes Regulations 2006, it is illegal not to tell the taxman anything you don’t want him to know - though you don’t have to tell him anything you don’t mind him knowing

10. North Carolina has made it illegal to swear in front of dead people

11. In Alexandria, Minneapolis, it is illegal for a man to have sexual intercourse with a woman with sardines on his breath

12. In Illinois, giving a lighted cigar to a pet is illegal

13. In 1837 Egypt banned male belly dancing as it caused mass rioting

14. In parts of Switzerland, it is illegal to flush the toilet after 10 pm

15. Chewing gum is illegal in Singapore (except for therapeutic reasons)

16. In Scotland, if someone knocks on your door and requires the use of your toilet, it is illegal to refuse them

17. In Cambodia, water guns may not be used in New Year’s celebrations

http://hereisthecity.com/2011/09/27/17-strange-laws-across-the-world/

LOL

prinz · 22-06-2012 02:09PM

Biggins wrote: »

The EU like everything else, is not perfect - but don't just accept that all you hear against the EU is a myth. You know sometimes it is not.

Not everything is a myth. Claiming they were banning the sale of bendy bananas and cucumbers clearly is. It's no major coincidence that the majority of the "EU to ban....:eek:" codology originates in the UK.

As for the water/hydration thing... the EU didn't come up one day and decide to come up with something daft..

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/looney-rules-eu-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration-2939196.html

They applied for the right to state that “regular consumption of significant amounts of water can reduce the risk of development of dehydration” as well as preventing a decrease in performance.
However, last February, the European Food Standards Authority (EFSA) refused to approve the statement.
A meeting of 21 scientists in Parma, Italy, concluded that reduced water content in the body was a symptom of dehydration and not something that drinking water could subsequently control. Prof Brian Ratcliffe, spokesman for the Nutrition Society, said dehydration was usually caused by a clinical condition and that one could remain adequately hydrated without drinking water.
He said: “The EU is saying that this does not reduce the risk of dehydration and that is correct.
“This claim is trying to imply that there is something special about bottled water which is not a reasonable claim.”

Read here for a decent appraisal of the issue..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2011/nov/18/1
The Commission followed this up with a directive on the matter.

fishy fishy · 22-06-2012 02:13PM

K-9 wrote: »

This was agreed back in the early 90's by your Government, not imposed by some German! :rolleyes:

Such a big deal over 53/54 bogs, something like 2% of our bogs.

"our government" ah yes, still haven't changed tho - still looking out for the neighbors instead of their own.

re. you second comment - I don't understand. If it is only 2% of our bogs, leave it to the people who have bought and made their livelihood from them....

twinQuins · 22-06-2012 02:25PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

[...] re. you second comment - I don't understand. If it is only 2% of our bogs, leave it to the people who have bought and made their livelihood from them....

Oh FFS... it's those 1-2% of bogs that need to be protected! The point is that the bogs that need protecting make up only 1-2% of the total bogs in the country.

fishy fishy · 22-06-2012 02:49PM

twinQuins wrote: »

Oh FFS... it's those 1-2% of bogs that need to be protected! The point is that the bogs that need protecting make up only 1-2% of the total bogs in the country.

sure it is :rolleyes:

Shenshen · 22-06-2012 03:06PM

Feathers wrote: »

What if you bought the forest specifically so you'd have firewood & were then banned from getting it?

If the government doesn't want people cutting turf, they should buy their land off them for what's worth.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that there is no restriction on how much wood you can take from any piece of forest you own, and no legislation forcing you to re-plant the trees you cut down?

hooradiation · 22-06-2012 03:06PM

Biggins wrote: »

...Plus a few others including a fore mentioned!

* EU rules ban sale of 'too small' kiwis. A wholesaler was banned from selling a consignment of kiwis due to the fact that based on EU laws they were too small. The wholesaler said that he wasn't even permitted to give away the 5,000 Chilean fruits. The required minimum kiwi weight is 62g, but his were mostly 58g. Read more about that at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2199214/EU-rules-ban-sale-of-too-small-kiwis.html.

Actually true.
Holy fucking wow.

Biggins wrote: »

* EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html

Prinz has demonstrated why this is correct and the telegraph are full of shit

Biggins wrote: »

Ssee: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-545010/EU-forces-bus-company-dump-passengers-half-hour.html

Utter lies.
Firstly, no such regulation as described by the mail, exists.
Secondly, the actual regulation on drivers working hours are measured, unsurprisingly, in units of time rather than distance.
Thirdly, here are the actual regulations in an easy to understand way.
Nothing in there matches up to lies you've regurgitated unquestioningly.

Biggins wrote: »

The EU like everything else, is not perfect - but don't just accept that all you hear against the EU is a myth.

Yes, we should clearly look to ape the stunning work you've done here.

ScumLord · 22-06-2012 03:21PM

Biggins wrote: »

There's bound to be some complacent government supporting puppet, willing to grass them up, you can be sure of!

Ya their neighbour that's at it themselves but wants to put one over on their families mortal enemies.

I don't know where I stand on this one. I can see the reasoning behind making bog cutting illegal, it is a unique environment and if we continue to burn it, it'll disappear just like it has in all the other European countries who've already gone through their bogs.

At the same time I come from bogland and know well there's plenty of it out there and the people cutting turf for their own use aren't making to much of a dent in the boglands. Small groups don't do too much damage it's big corporations and businesses interests that destroy environments.

I also know there's plenty of Irish land owners that seem to think their entitled to treat the patch of land their on with contempt for as long as their alive. But the EU seem to be treating Ireland as their own little nature reserve with no consideration for the lifes of people that live there.

The bottom line is though if there is a cost effective alternative people will use it. Taking from them won't change their minds and will only create a conflict, which Europe seems intent at creating at this stage.

Biggins · 22-06-2012 03:29PM

Can someone explain the bog cutting process?

I mean (and I ask 'cos I really don't know - so sorry for what might be a stupid question), when the bog is dug into and turf is extracted, how is the then hole filled (is it filled again?) and further bog/turf can come again in the same spot for the next time around, for extraction?

Immaculate Pasta · 22-06-2012 03:30PM

Fuck Europe lads. I say we take the loan and put it towards a giant fan to be built along the East Coast. Then we default on our loans, turn the fan on which will propell us over to America. Our neighbour can then be America and our island can just be off Boston and New York. They'll look after us :cool:

Lima Golf · 22-06-2012 03:36PM

It amazes me to read all the comments from people this doesnt directly affect saying how we shouldn't be allowed to cut turf and we should basically lie down, let the government walk all over us.

Yet when the governments actions affects ye personally, take for example the €100 household charge, theres uproar over a feckin €100. It just goes to show how self centred people are.

fishy fishy · 22-06-2012 03:42PM

agreed - its the typical "i'm alright jack" syndrome that has seeped into this country with the pretend celtic tiger.

not a word being said about bord na mona and what they are doing to the bogs....oh and before people go spouting about them using a blanket bog instead of a raised bog I'd say look it up and see exactly what bog they are exploiting....oh wait, but thats okay - its a big corporation ....carry on then :rolleyes:

Paparazzo · 22-06-2012 04:00PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

ah sure we sold off our gas and oil rights as well - just gave them away - this country is just like an idiot that has been out all night on the p*ss - buying rounds for everyone, being the "big man" - then waking up in the morning and wondering where all the money went, and why are all our best "friends" from last night laughing their ar*ses off at us.

softtouch.com

Wise up people.

Not this "gave away our oil and gas" shíte again. We never gave it away, stop reading indiemedia

robp · 22-06-2012 04:04PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

agreed - its the typical "i'm alright jack" syndrome that has seeped into this country with the pretend celtic tiger.

not a word being said about bord na mona and what they are doing to the bogs....oh and before people go spouting about them using a blanket bog instead of a raised bog I'd say look it up and see exactly what bog they are exploiting....oh wait, but thats okay - its a big corporation ....carry on then :rolleyes:

I dismissed this argument already but as it is still mentioned I will say it again.

Peat extraction carried out by Bord na Mona is certainly the most destructive while the hopper and sausage machine extraction which this ban is affecting is somewhere in the middle. Hand cutting would create the least impact but this is no longer favoured as its hard to make a profit from hand cutting. The Bord na Mona bogs simply cannot be restored as active peat forming wetlands as they are drained. Drainage ultimately changes the bog beyond repair.
Bord na Mona has committed to restoring about 50-70% of its land to nature once the peat is gone but the ecosystems which will be created will be utterly different to those that was there before Bord na Mona was there. Different species and different habitats. If raised bogs form again on these sites it will be in a scale of thousands of years. Hopper turf cutting is a slower way to destroy a bog but the result is no different.

Biggins Can someone explain the bog cutting process?

I mean (and I ask 'cos I really don't know - so sorry for what might be a stupid question), when the bog is dug into and turf is extracted, how is the then hole filled (is it filled again?) and further bog/turn can come again in the same spot for the next time around, for extraction?

No they are never filled in. To cut it wetness of the bog is drained, if the wetness is restored bog can grow back at about 1mm a year so its not considered renewable. However this turf cutting group is against restoring wetness in many cases ..:(

Biggins · 22-06-2012 04:08PM

robp wrote: »

No they are never filled in. To cut it wetness of the bog is drained, if the wetness is restored bog can grow back at about 1mm a year so its not considered renewable. However this turf cutting group is against restoring wetness in many cases ..:(

Thanks for that.
Its very details like that which help further how to take a position on the matter.
Its details like above that a lot of people (definitely me to begin with) should really know before they jump into a position/opinion half-cocked.

ScumLord · 22-06-2012 04:20PM

robp wrote: »

Hand cutting would create the least impact but this is no longer favoured as its hard to make a profit from hand cutting.

The people who cut by hand aren't really looking for profit though, they're just trying to be cheap. Get the relations in, put the big lad cutting, women bring the hang sangwedges.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-06-2012 04:23PM

bastados wrote: »

A lot of countries openly refuse to go along with EU regulations...do we have to play the model example of shining bureaucratic bullshiite?

No the UK are the shining example of implementing stuff they've agreed to.

Our record is abysmal , unclean beaches, septic tanks, junior doctors.

We've taken the píss for far too long to continue.

If the turfcutters agree to pay the EU fine and prove they have funds to do so then maybe we can begin to talk. Otherwise they will endup costing the country far more money than they can generate from the bogs.

This turf cutting row - will Europe ever know?

Comments