Ireland in denial

Monty Burnz · 22-06-2012 09:42AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.

What do you expect 'the majority' to do? Kick down doors at random in case something is going on behind them?

All we can do is trust that our elected government puts the structures and resources in place to protect children, and kick up a fuss if that doesn't seem to be happening.

Lord Bafford · 22-06-2012 09:43AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

What makes you even for a second consider we think it's alright?

Most of us are not in a position to actively change a thing about it, doesn't mean we condone it anyway.

The only people that thinks it's right are the abusers and if you've been on boards long enough, you'd have a fair idea of how most people here feel about those who abuse children.

Not flocking to mass would be a good start!

Pascaldiddly · 22-06-2012 09:45AM

Well ive been on the recieving end of abuse from irish children themselves even when i was kid. Having said that abuse kids is not acceptable..theres a lot of hatred out there in fact always was since I was young

Dyr · 22-06-2012 09:46AM

biko wrote: »

Woah, hold on there with your loaded questions, claiming all Irish people agree with child abuse.
Just because it's high on your agenda doesn't mean it will be high on everyone's agenda. There are many problems and things wrong with today's society and not everyone will focus on what you personally deem important.

Y'see the thing is the media latched onto the church's kiddie fiddling because its a good headline and it suited a lot of broadcasters world view.

"irish institutions kill kids" really isn't the same as a headline. We ain't gonna be able to blame that on anyone else are we?

Dravokivich · 22-06-2012 09:50AM

Lord Bafford wrote: »

Not flocking to mass would be a good start!

How so? I don't see why someone should stop being a practising Catholic because of the abuse that's been uncovered.

seamus · 22-06-2012 09:50AM

The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

The end result is that while we may look at a particular case and foam at the mouth to say that the state should have intervened, we are reluctant to give the state the power to intervene, lest that power be accidentally (or indeed maliciously) used against us.

If you give the state a little bit more power to intervene earlier to save a child, you risk having children taken away from innocent parents over misunderstandings.
The situation we have at the moment is the opposite - out of fear of making a mistake, children are left with abusive parents for longer than they should be, and on top of that abusive parents and families are given a state-enshrined right to continuous access to their child even though the child has been removed for their protection.

In reality that's what the referendum will boil down to - are we happy to accept that sometimes a child will be accidentally taken away from innocent parents (temporarily), in exchange for a greater ability to intervene earlier in actual abusive relationships?

How so? I don't see why someone should stop being a practising Catholic because of the abuse that's been uncovered.

Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

Dyr · 22-06-2012 10:02AM

seamus wrote: »

The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

The end result is that while we may look at a particular case and foam at the mouth to say that the state should have intervened, we are reluctant to give the state the power to intervene, lest that power be accidentally (or indeed maliciously) used against us.

If you give the state a little bit more power to intervene earlier to save a child, you risk having children taken away from innocent parents over misunderstandings.
The situation we have at the moment is the opposite - out of fear of making a mistake, children are left with abusive parents for longer than they should be, and on top of that abusive parents and families are given a state-enshrined right to continuous access to their child even though the child has been removed for their protection.

In reality that's what the referendum will boil down to - are we happy to accept that sometimes a child will be accidentally taken away from innocent parents (temporarily), in exchange for a greater ability to intervene earlier in actual abusive relationships?

Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

You might have missed the bit about state intervention being what's killing the kids. I'd take a hard look at your own ethics if you're happy to give these institutions sweeping powers without first having massive reforms.

seamus · 22-06-2012 10:16AM

Bambi wrote: »

You might have missed the bit about state intervention being what's killing the kids. I'd take a hard look at your own ethics if you're happy to give these institutions sweeping powers without first having massive reforms.

How is state intervention killing these kids?

The recent report basically showed that it was a failure to intervene early enough which allowed these kids to slip through the cracks. By definition, a child which ends up coming to the attention of the state is far more likely to ed up dying from violence, drug/alcohol abuse or suicide. I'm not at all shocked by the figures or the fact that children die while in state care. It's inevitable as far as I can see.

The main problem (as far as I can see it) is the state's inability to intervene earlier - according to the report, the vast majority of those children who died were not in the care of the HSE but "were known" to the HSE. This indicates children who were at high risk, but the state didn't or couldn't intervene.

Speak to any social worker and they'll tell you that one of the main factors which inhibits them is their inability to take any action against parents without solid evidence. Even then, management and the judiciary are very prone to err on the side of caution because of the idea that a child is always better off with its biological parents than without.
There is a fair argument that in many cases if the state intervenes early enough, the child would be better off with faceless strangers than with abusive biological parents. This is one argument that we seem to sidestep a lot and pretend it doesn't exist.

This is separate to the fact that HSE and CPA need serious reform. The report highlighted a lot of things which need to be fixed.

By the way, I didn't say I was happy for anything to happen, simply laying out the fundamental argument. Nice to see that you decided I have an opinion on it though.

Dravokivich · 22-06-2012 10:26AM

seamus wrote: »

Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

My point was solely that their "faith/belief" doesn't change as the result of miss management higher on up. To tell someone else that they should no longer be active within it because of that, is just sensationalist reactionary crap.

If one was to feel it was reason for them to question their trust in the organisation, fair enough, they've decided that for themselves. But it is not fair to taint everyone's ethics who practices because of the actions of some within.

latenia · 22-06-2012 10:35AM

The way this report has been reported in the media has made people a bit hysterical. I'm not saying there aren't any flaws in the system but most people seem to have got the impression that 200 children in the care of the state have committed suicide, been murdered, died of overdoses etc. Take a look at the statistics on page 427:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0620/childdeath_report.pdf

I don't see why 'natural causes' was even included-heart defects, cystic fybrosis, cancer etc are all tragic but they're hardly society's fault. Then in the 'unnatural deaths' category we have traffic accidents, accidental falls, fires and accidental drownings. Again, these are tragic and preventable, but they happen-it's a fact of life.

The parts of the report that do raise concerns are the suicides, overdoses and unlawful killings while in care and aftercare and 'known to the HSE'; these total 74 individuals under 18 years old-the stats don't differentiate between a 5 year old and someone aged 17½-and this is where questions need to be answered. Even one death is too many but, over a ten year period, the numbers involved are hardly indicitave of a completely broken system or a flawed society.

seamus · 22-06-2012 10:45AM

latenia wrote: »

I'm not saying there aren't any flaws in the system but most people seem to have got the impression that 200 children in the care of the state have committed suicide, been murdered, died of overdoses etc. Take a look at the statistics on page 427:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0620/childdeath_report.pdf

+1

Significant numbers I think are that of children in HSE care who died of non-natural causes, just three out of the 17 (17%) were under 12 years of age. More than half (58%) were 16 or older.

By contrast, of the 68 children who died while "known to the HSE", 55 of these (over 80%!) were 15 or younger. Nearly half of them (47%) were 12 or younger.

This would indicate strongly to me that the primary failing is not with HSE care, but with their inability/unwillingness to intervene when the child is younger.

By the time the HSE get to them, their fate is already sealed.

Doc Ruby · 22-06-2012 11:44AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

I think its revolting that you should take a serious issue that affects lots of people and turn it into a troll thread. A really obvious 3AM one.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I disagree I think a lot of poeple have no problem with abuse leveled at what they see as the lower classes. Thanks for the well wishes though I hope so to!

Grade-A trolling.

seamus wrote: »

The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

Well done on your election to the post of spokesperson for the people of Ireland. I may have missed the polling but better late than never eh.

seamus · 22-06-2012 11:48AM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Well done on your election to the post of spokesperson for the people of Ireland. I may have missed the polling but better late than never eh.

Do I have to start putting IMO at the end of every sentence now to avoid inadvertantly making it appear like I'm putting words in people's mouths?

If you disagree with something I've said, then debate it, don't take offence.

Doc Ruby · 22-06-2012 11:57AM

A thread which takes as its basic premise "Irish people don't think child abuse is wrong" and goes on to ask why, is not someplace you can expect reasonable debate.

seamus wrote: »

Do I have to start putting IMO at the end of every sentence now to avoid inadvertantly making it appear like I'm putting words in people's mouths?

If you disagree with something I've said, then debate it, don't take offence.

Its this kind of armchair psychoanalysis that feeds into a lot of crazy narratives about Ireland, which further enables some of the lunatics who make it their daily business to incite as much baseless prejuidice against Irish people as possible. And there's no shortage of them.

Lazy, sweeping, and negative statements about "the Irish" as a whole should not be encouraged.

shopaholic01 · 22-06-2012 12:03PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.

I honestly wouldn't know what to do to change it.

biko wrote: »

Woah, hold on there with your loaded questions, claiming all Irish people agree with child abuse.
Just because it's high on your agenda doesn't mean it will be high on everyone's agenda. There are many problems and things wrong with today's society and not everyone will focus on what you personally deem important.

steddyeddy, you are quick rightly angry as this is an issue that affects you personally. Those of us who have never suffered abuse or neglect still find it abhorrent, but like Biko said, it is not a personal issue for us. There are issues I feel passionate about that other people won't - that's human nature as opposed to apathy.

Dravokivich wrote: »

What makes you even for a second consider we think it's alright?

Most of us are not in a position to actively change a thing about it, doesn't mean we condone it anyway.

The only people that thinks it's right are the abusers and if you've been on boards long enough, you'd have a fair idea of how most people here feel about those who abuse children.

Exactly, we don't think it's right but are powerless to change it.

Lord Bafford wrote: »

Not flocking to mass would be a good start!

I detest the CC, but this is an issue that occurs in families and communities as well. For those who still practise their religion, well it's their right to have their faith and express it. I doubt any of these condone the treatment of children by the CC.

Fizzlesque, another detailed post, I'm sorry for your experiences and hope you continue to come to terms with it. It's awful to think of what families do to one another, but it's particularly tragic when children become victims in the one place they should always feel safe, loved and wanted.

Doc Ruby · 22-06-2012 12:08PM

Looking back over the thread it may not be an actual trolling attempt but that's still a hell of thing to say.

Lord Bafford · 22-06-2012 12:27PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

How so? I don't see why someone should stop being a practising Catholic because of the abuse that's been uncovered.

The church, to this day, continue their vile attempts to cover up and obfuscate investigations into child abuse. They are also withholding payments to victims.

What a lovely organisation to support on a weekly basis.:rolleyes:

Jester252 · 22-06-2012 12:27PM

The HSE system on children is broke. Not only the case of kids dying while in care but how children are looked after while in care. If a child was given voluntarily to the HSE the parent can take the child out when they want and if there is no contract for 5 years the child is turn over to the HSE but contract with the child might be a card on year 4 day 364

Fizzlesque · 22-06-2012 12:36PM

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Fizzlesque, another detailed post, I'm sorry for your experiences and hope you continue to come to terms with it. It's awful to think of what families do to one another, but it's particularly tragic when children become victims in the one place they should always feel safe, loved and wanted.

Cheers, Shopaholic.

Yeah, some topics really bring out the detailed post writer in me, despite my best intentions to stick to the more frivolous topics/threads and to keep my posts short (ish).

I do continue to come to terms with the hand fate flung at me, and to be honest, these days I'm very positive and full of good cheer - part of the reason I express myself so candidly is because the sweeping stuff under the carpet/let's pretend nothing is wrong that went with the abuse and neglect really hindered the healing process for me. I had to become the annoying therapy-attending member of my family, who brought up conversations people didn't want brought up, at the beginning of my journey back to good emotional health.

Open and honest expression/communication was vital - and I had to really push to be allowed to have that, but in time it turned out to be the right thing to do --- all wounds have healed. Well, as much as they can.

The silence makes matters much worse, I hope my posts don't depress people; I really mean it when I say I'm in a safe and sunny place now, even though the adoption pain still gnaws at my heart every day, I've come to terms with the tragic events that lead me to have to make that terrible decision in the first place.

Those ads on TV with the abused children crying alone in their cots/beds afraid to tell anyone what's going on really get to me. I wish I could give every child a voice to be heard - and, I guess, in a small way, part of me still needs to use the voice I eventually managed to find.

Right, that's enough for today. Life came good in the end, and I'm happy I stayed around long enough for that to happen.

Ray Palmer · 22-06-2012 12:39PM

It looks like some people think all abuse is sexual. The report is about neglect and troubled children just as much as anything else.
We don't have proper care facilities or monitor situations well enough. The country as whole doesn't disregard it. More likely not aware of the problem.
Costs really are a factor. Proper care for children in trouble will cost more per child than providing a good school for more children. Ultimately that decision gets made.
One reason democracy doesn't work.

livinonaprayer · 22-06-2012 12:45PM

I think that the Irish child protection system is getting better. It may have been bad in the past but systematical abuse happens all over the world. At least the government is at least trying to address the problem now, where as other nations try to sweep it under the carpet and continue to cover it up. (And no I don't work for the government)

shopaholic01 · 22-06-2012 12:46PM

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Cheers, Shopaholic.

Yeah, some topics really bring out the detailed post writer in me, despite my best intentions to stick to the more frivolous topics/threads and to keep my posts short (ish).

I do continue to come to terms with the hand fate flung at me, and to be honest, these days I'm very positive and full of good cheer - part of the reason I express myself so candidly is because the sweeping stuff under the carpet/let's pretend nothing is wrong that went with the abuse and neglect really hindered the healing process for me. I had to become the annoying therapy-attending member of my family, who brought up conversations people didn't want brought up, at the beginning of my journey back to good emotional health.

Open and honest expression/communication was vital - and I had to really push to be allowed to have that, but in time it turned out to be the right thing to do --- all wounds have healed. Well, as much as they can.

The silence makes matters much worse, I hope my posts don't depress people; I really mean it when I say I'm in a safe and sunny place now, even though the adoption pain still gnaws at my heart every day, I've come to terms with the tragic events that lead me to have to make that terrible decision in the first place.

Those ads on TV with the abused children crying alone in their cots/beds afraid to tell anyone what's going on really get to me. I wish I could give every child a voice to be heard - and, I guess, in a small way, part of me still needs to use the voice I eventually managed to find.

Right, that's enough for today. Life came good in the end, and I'm happy I stayed around long enough for that to happen.

I enjoy your posts, you always sound sincere.

It's great that you are so open, our typical Irish repression is something that really needs to change. I think as a society we would be much healthier if we could resist the 'I'm grand' default response and say how we really feel!

You actually sound more balanced than people who had more conventional upbringings.

Fighting Irish · 22-06-2012 12:49PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

lol gtfo

Lord Bafford · 22-06-2012 12:53PM

Fighting Irish wrote: »

lol gtfo

What time is mass on Sunday? :rolleyes:

charlemont · 22-06-2012 07:31PM

the_syco wrote: »

We do think it's wrong.

If you want to fling crap around, I'll fling crap back; what have you done to help fix the child abuse problem in Ireland before you fled?

At least he is trying to highlight and discuss it..

Phill Ewinn · 22-06-2012 07:50PM

The HSE is a massive money making machine. I doubt that any proper control of it will ever be put into place. That's the first problem IMO.

Incompetence and lazyness together with funding and training problems seem to weigh the scales significantly against children in state care.

I don't know what the solution is. I can say though that children with intellectual problems here get excellent care between the hours of 9am and 4pm.

I can't say there is any centre for teens from troubled families (or troubled teens). Is it easier for the HSE to take care of one group over another? Yes.

I don't accept there is any excuse for what's going on. I don't see any political will to tackle the HSE over this issue.

Debunker · 22-06-2012 08:03PM

I was exorcised as a teenager. I can't tell you how many scars that leaves, but I'm not going to go into that. A lot of people do infact look away. I was talking about how the priests should've never gotten away with rape and my tutor told me to shut it and get over it. I bit my tongue, but that sort of "well it doesn't effect me" attitude is kind of clogging how our society deals with this.

Of course people will say they're against child abuse, there's just no proper system implemented to actually help the ones who need it the most. The one's who really do need it end up being the ones who can't talk about it and if they can't talk about it then who really knows what they have to deal with in the first place?

I suppose that's also another moot point.

bee_keeper · 22-06-2012 08:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The gaurds involved with abuse need to be fired for a start and the hse needs to be changed completely.

the guards rely on the hse - social workers to research the problem before anything can be done , the HSE,s idea of doing something is to have endless care conferences

bee_keeper · 22-06-2012 08:27PM

seamus wrote: »

The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

The end result is that while we may look at a particular case and foam at the mouth to say that the state should have intervened, we are reluctant to give the state the power to intervene, lest that power be accidentally (or indeed maliciously) used against us.

If you give the state a little bit more power to intervene earlier to save a child, you risk having children taken away from innocent parents over misunderstandings.
The situation we have at the moment is the opposite - out of fear of making a mistake, children are left with abusive parents for longer than they should be, and on top of that abusive parents and families are given a state-enshrined right to continuous access to their child even though the child has been removed for their protection.

In reality that's what the referendum will boil down to - are we happy to accept that sometimes a child will be accidentally taken away from innocent parents (temporarily), in exchange for a greater ability to intervene earlier in actual abusive relationships?

Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

the state already has the right to intervene when crimes are committed and child abuse is a crime , the problem is the state HSE perfers to twiddle its thumbs and hand ring

RaRaRasputin · 22-06-2012 09:21PM

So...how is this thread going to change anything exactly? Are we just going to collect some more moans or will this debate change something?

Ireland in denial

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