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Ireland in denial

  • 22-06-2012 1:22am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

    Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Attitude towards abuse here is very strange, Think it's because most people here actually do not care about things that don't directly effect them, Its a part of the clannishness that exists. Sure sweep it under the carpet, It'll be alright. :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    I don't think it's a case of people not caring, lack of awareness is probably the main problem.

    Very few people would not have an issue with child neglect or abuse.

    Unfortunately for you, you know the reality only too well, I hope you are happier in the future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,366 ✭✭✭✭Kylo Ren


    I am pretty sure the majority of people in Ireland would say child abuse is wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I don't think it's a case of people not caring, lack of awareness is probably the main problem.

    Very few people would not have an issue with child neglect or abuse.

    Unfortunately for you, you know the reality only too well, I hope you are happier in the future.

    I disagree I think a lot of poeple have no problem with abuse leveled at what they see as the lower classes. Thanks for the well wishes though I hope so to!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Keno 92 wrote: »
    I am pretty sure the majority of people in Ireland would say child abuse is wrong.

    Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,366 ✭✭✭✭Kylo Ren


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.

    But that was your question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    How about we try and make this a positive thread and bring up things we can do to help the situation? I'm not of a mind that writing politicians is really the most effective. So, what solutions/ideas can we come up with, AH?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    How about we try and make this a positive thread and bring up things we can do to help the situation? I'm not of a mind that writing politicians is really the most effective. So, what solutions/ideas can we come up with, AH?

    Fair enough. I escaped abuse and Irelands view on it. I still have friends here who are punished by the state for being victims of abuse. They aproached the gaurds and nothing happened so guess the change starts there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Fair enough. I escaped abuse and Irelands view on it. I still have friends here who are punished by the state for being victims of abuse. They aproached the gaurds and nothing happened so guess the change starts there.
    How should people act on it? You say people should, and I don't think a reasonable person could disagree. We could leave the thread at that, with nothing gained. I'd prefer more were done though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    How should people act on it? You say people should, and I don't think a reasonable person could disagree. We could leave the thread at that, with nothing gained. I'd prefer more were done though.

    The gaurds involved with abuse need to be fired for a start and the hse needs to be changed completely.


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The sad reality is that, until very recently, Ireland as a society did not cherish or love many of its children. Ireland, I suspect, has one of the highest rates of child abuse in the developed world which is shocking in itself.

    Much of the blame lies with the Catholic church but also an ignorant and wilfully indifferent society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    And Church of Ireland

    Bethany Home for an example


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I don't think it's a case of people not caring

    A lot of people don't care.

    They still support an organisation that facilitated the rape and torture of young children.

    An organisation that still puts itself above child welfare.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ColeTrain


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

    Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

    I don't see how you can put this on the ordinary citizen. We pay our taxes so that there is a proper system in place. Are you going to blame the deficiencies in the health system on Irish people for not caring enough?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Keno 92 wrote: »
    I am pretty sure the majority of people in Ireland would say child abuse is wrong.

    Then why aren't convicted pedophile priests thrown in prison for their crimes?

    The rules of the law should apply EQUALLY to everyone regardless of faith, stature or position in society!

    I know what you mean but it sends such a mixed message that "child abuse is wrong and punishable by law but if you're a priest..."


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    The sad reality is that, until very recently, Ireland as a society did not cherish or love many of its children. Ireland, I suspect, has one of the highest rates of child abuse in the developed world which is shocking in itself.

    Much of the blame lies with the Catholic church but also an ignorant and wilfully indifferent society.

    Is there proof of that?

    Child abuse is not an Irish only phenomena. Sure, the revelations of the abuse of the RCC has lifted the lid on the conspiracy of lies and cover ups for the best part of 50 years. However, now that the state has by all intents of purposes taken over from the church the care of children from difficult backgrounds things have not changed at all. So what now?

    Irish people like to point the finger and blame something or someone but the truth is a lot closer to home. We are closed minded when it comes to this issue, abuse is much more wide spread than one would suspect. Remember, the vast amount of abuse occurs between family members. These are usually nameless people who do not grab the headlines as much it would do if the church or the state were the main culprits. To accept this fact is a step in the right direction.

    Yes, we are in denial to an extent. Until we recognise the true nature of the problem it will always be thus.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 141 ✭✭Patrick Cleburne


    A state which was built on the bedrock of the biggest paedophilia organisation on the planet is going to have problems. Only now are some waking up to it. Good to see the OP understands this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    1ZRed wrote: »
    Then why aren't convicted pedophile priests thrown in prison for their crimes?

    The rules of the law should apply EQUALLY to everyone regardless of faith, stature or position in society!

    I know what you mean but it sends such a mixed message that "child abuse is wrong and punishable by law but if you're a priest..."

    If priests are convicted of children abuse then surely they are sentenced the same as the next person? There was one prison - Midlands, I think - which had enough priests in it that it was nicknamed the Vatican.

    To answer the OP, I think Irish people do care, but the us a question of good citizenship - if you see something wrong, report it. The way the courts handle this needs to be looked at too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    The article doesn't mention the Church once

    But predictably that's what After Hours want to talk about

    16 and 18 posts about religion

    Yet the article is about the HSE


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

    Most goes on behind closed doors and by family members

    People rant about the churches, yes churches plural as Church of Ireland are not blameless either
    Or the State
    But that's just a fraction


    Who knows what is going on in communities, how many know their neighbours?

    You are blaming people for not reporting what they may not even know about


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Fairly predictable fare really. Seems like we have learned nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    It is a worry though that most the posts here against abuse refer to the church. I think the catholic church has alot to answer ( and there's no way I'm on here defending the church) but was at a child protection course recently and they highlighted that at it's peak all reported abuse by the catholic church accounted for only 3% of all abuse in Ireland. We need to be careful that all focus of abuse is centred around the church and we ignore or distracted from the point our original op made. Abuse is happening in all walks of life and this maybe why it hasn't been given the real attention it should.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 77 ✭✭Lord Bafford


    I tried making this point the other day and, surprise surprise, my thread was locked.:mad:

    Maybe Irish people are just too stupid in general to grasp reality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Down with that sort of thing





























































    careful now


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped.

    This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

    Woah, hold on there with your loaded questions, claiming all Irish people agree with child abuse.
    Just because it's high on your agenda doesn't mean it will be high on everyone's agenda. There are many problems and things wrong with today's society and not everyone will focus on what you personally deem important.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

    Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

    What happened you was terrible and I sincerely hope mentally and physically you have recovered, but this sentence is just preposterous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?
    We do think it's wrong.

    If you want to fling crap around, I'll fling crap back; what have you done to help fix the child abuse problem in Ireland before you fled?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Fizzlesque


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0621/breaking3.html

    Children in care are dying. Children in the care of the catholic church have died, have been tortured, have been raped. I was a victim of an abusive houshold and in later in care before I escaped. I dont get why the people of ireland think abuse towards kids is ok. I say that because the same crap is going on again and again. I know victims of abuse that the gaurds are stilll ignoring, that the hse are ignoring, This is still going on. my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

    As Pushtrak asked, what do you think should be done? I don't know what should be done - that doesn't mean I don't think child abuse is wrong, I most definitely do.

    Child abuse doesn't only happen in care - it happens in family homes too. Happened in my childhood home (physical, emotional and mental abuse - not sexual) and my siblings and I have often wondered why nobody [apart from one grandmother, who did the best she could in her limited due to ill health and being house-bound capacity] noticed, or cared enough to act, if they did notice.

    It has been my experience that professional mental health help for damaged children is very poor in this country. I sought help in my early twenties, for extreme anxiety and was referred to a day hospital which was completely pointless, for me. When I left, on the third day, the doctor said "I've no problem with you leaving, as far as I'm concerned you're of totally sound mind" and the nurse said "it's a pity you're leaving, you're great at getting the other patients to open up"

    All of which was no use to me - being articulate and prepared to discuss painful issues meant the doctor thought I was fine to deal with everything by myself and the nurse wanted me to act as some sort of counsellor for the other patients, who, to be quite frank, were more mentally impaired than emotionally damaged. In the end I managed to get a free 2-hour therapy session with Barnardos, because I'd placed my child for adoption and qualified for this therapy under the single mother banner.

    More than 20 years on, I've slowly managed to haul myself out of the pit of despair my bad childhood and loss of my child dragged me into, by paying for therapy here and there, and embarking on lots of my own too-many-bottles-of-wine therapy.

    I don't know what the answer is, I wish I did. To this day when I hear a parent shout at their five year old child "you're just a stupid selfish fukcing cnut" (something I've heard far too often) I want to intervene and plead with them not to verbally abuse their child like that, but all that's likely to happen is their abusive tirade will be turned on me.

    I can't read stories of child abuse without tears welling up - but nor can I read stories of animal abuse without tears welling up. I'm very sensitive to the issue of abuse, which probably rules me out of ever being objective enough to know what's too much (in terms of levels of abuse) and what warrants intervention and what steps should be taken to remedy this sad situation.

    Which brings me back to Pushtrak's question, which is also one of my own: what do you think should be done?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ColeTrain wrote: »
    I don't see how you can put this on the ordinary citizen. We pay our taxes so that there is a proper system in place. Are you going to blame the deficiencies in the health system on Irish people for not caring enough?

    There isn't a proper system in place, and we have a low tax regime.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?

    What makes you even for a second consider we think it's alright?

    Most of us are not in a position to actively change a thing about it, doesn't mean we condone it anyway.

    The only people that thinks it's right are the abusers and if you've been on boards long enough, you'd have a fair idea of how most people here feel about those who abuse children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.
    What do you expect 'the majority' to do? Kick down doors at random in case something is going on behind them?

    All we can do is trust that our elected government puts the structures and resources in place to protect children, and kick up a fuss if that doesn't seem to be happening.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 77 ✭✭Lord Bafford


    What makes you even for a second consider we think it's alright?

    Most of us are not in a position to actively change a thing about it, doesn't mean we condone it anyway.

    The only people that thinks it's right are the abusers and if you've been on boards long enough, you'd have a fair idea of how most people here feel about those who abuse children.


    Not flocking to mass would be a good start!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 Pascaldiddly


    Well ive been on the recieving end of abuse from irish children themselves even when i was kid. Having said that abuse kids is not acceptable..theres a lot of hatred out there in fact always was since I was young


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    biko wrote: »
    Woah, hold on there with your loaded questions, claiming all Irish people agree with child abuse.
    Just because it's high on your agenda doesn't mean it will be high on everyone's agenda. There are many problems and things wrong with today's society and not everyone will focus on what you personally deem important.

    Y'see the thing is the media latched onto the church's kiddie fiddling because its a good headline and it suited a lot of broadcasters world view.

    "irish institutions kill kids" really isn't the same as a headline. We ain't gonna be able to blame that on anyone else are we?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Not flocking to mass would be a good start!

    How so? I don't see why someone should stop being a practising Catholic because of the abuse that's been uncovered.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

    Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

    However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

    The end result is that while we may look at a particular case and foam at the mouth to say that the state should have intervened, we are reluctant to give the state the power to intervene, lest that power be accidentally (or indeed maliciously) used against us.

    If you give the state a little bit more power to intervene earlier to save a child, you risk having children taken away from innocent parents over misunderstandings.
    The situation we have at the moment is the opposite - out of fear of making a mistake, children are left with abusive parents for longer than they should be, and on top of that abusive parents and families are given a state-enshrined right to continuous access to their child even though the child has been removed for their protection.

    In reality that's what the referendum will boil down to - are we happy to accept that sometimes a child will be accidentally taken away from innocent parents (temporarily), in exchange for a greater ability to intervene earlier in actual abusive relationships?
    How so? I don't see why someone should stop being a practising Catholic because of the abuse that's been uncovered.
    Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
    If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    seamus wrote: »
    The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

    Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

    However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).

    The end result is that while we may look at a particular case and foam at the mouth to say that the state should have intervened, we are reluctant to give the state the power to intervene, lest that power be accidentally (or indeed maliciously) used against us.

    If you give the state a little bit more power to intervene earlier to save a child, you risk having children taken away from innocent parents over misunderstandings.
    The situation we have at the moment is the opposite - out of fear of making a mistake, children are left with abusive parents for longer than they should be, and on top of that abusive parents and families are given a state-enshrined right to continuous access to their child even though the child has been removed for their protection.

    In reality that's what the referendum will boil down to - are we happy to accept that sometimes a child will be accidentally taken away from innocent parents (temporarily), in exchange for a greater ability to intervene earlier in actual abusive relationships?

    Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
    If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

    You might have missed the bit about state intervention being what's killing the kids. I'd take a hard look at your own ethics if you're happy to give these institutions sweeping powers without first having massive reforms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Bambi wrote: »
    You might have missed the bit about state intervention being what's killing the kids. I'd take a hard look at your own ethics if you're happy to give these institutions sweeping powers without first having massive reforms.
    How is state intervention killing these kids?

    The recent report basically showed that it was a failure to intervene early enough which allowed these kids to slip through the cracks. By definition, a child which ends up coming to the attention of the state is far more likely to ed up dying from violence, drug/alcohol abuse or suicide. I'm not at all shocked by the figures or the fact that children die while in state care. It's inevitable as far as I can see.

    The main problem (as far as I can see it) is the state's inability to intervene earlier - according to the report, the vast majority of those children who died were not in the care of the HSE but "were known" to the HSE. This indicates children who were at high risk, but the state didn't or couldn't intervene.

    Speak to any social worker and they'll tell you that one of the main factors which inhibits them is their inability to take any action against parents without solid evidence. Even then, management and the judiciary are very prone to err on the side of caution because of the idea that a child is always better off with its biological parents than without.
    There is a fair argument that in many cases if the state intervenes early enough, the child would be better off with faceless strangers than with abusive biological parents. This is one argument that we seem to sidestep a lot and pretend it doesn't exist.

    This is separate to the fact that HSE and CPA need serious reform. The report highlighted a lot of things which need to be fixed.

    By the way, I didn't say I was happy for anything to happen, simply laying out the fundamental argument. Nice to see that you decided I have an opinion on it though.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    seamus wrote: »
    Probably something to do with the fact that practically every person currently at the top of the organisation was at one time or another aware of the abuse going on and took active steps to supress the information and protect the offenders.
    If you believe that you are divinely required to take your direction from these men, then you would want to take a good hard look at your ethics.

    My point was solely that their "faith/belief" doesn't change as the result of miss management higher on up. To tell someone else that they should no longer be active within it because of that, is just sensationalist reactionary crap.

    If one was to feel it was reason for them to question their trust in the organisation, fair enough, they've decided that for themselves. But it is not fair to taint everyone's ethics who practices because of the actions of some within.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    The way this report has been reported in the media has made people a bit hysterical. I'm not saying there aren't any flaws in the system but most people seem to have got the impression that 200 children in the care of the state have committed suicide, been murdered, died of overdoses etc. Take a look at the statistics on page 427:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0620/childdeath_report.pdf

    I don't see why 'natural causes' was even included-heart defects, cystic fybrosis, cancer etc are all tragic but they're hardly society's fault. Then in the 'unnatural deaths' category we have traffic accidents, accidental falls, fires and accidental drownings. Again, these are tragic and preventable, but they happen-it's a fact of life.

    The parts of the report that do raise concerns are the suicides, overdoses and unlawful killings while in care and aftercare and 'known to the HSE'; these total 74 individuals under 18 years old-the stats don't differentiate between a 5 year old and someone aged 17½-and this is where questions need to be answered. Even one death is too many but, over a ten year period, the numbers involved are hardly indicitave of a completely broken system or a flawed society.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    latenia wrote: »
    I'm not saying there aren't any flaws in the system but most people seem to have got the impression that 200 children in the care of the state have committed suicide, been murdered, died of overdoses etc. Take a look at the statistics on page 427:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0620/childdeath_report.pdf
    +1

    Significant numbers I think are that of children in HSE care who died of non-natural causes, just three out of the 17 (17%) were under 12 years of age. More than half (58%) were 16 or older.

    By contrast, of the 68 children who died while "known to the HSE", 55 of these (over 80%!) were 15 or younger. Nearly half of them (47%) were 12 or younger.

    This would indicate strongly to me that the primary failing is not with HSE care, but with their inability/unwillingness to intervene when the child is younger.

    By the time the HSE get to them, their fate is already sealed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    my question is why dont irish people think child abuse is wrong?
    I think its revolting that you should take a serious issue that affects lots of people and turn it into a troll thread. A really obvious 3AM one.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I disagree I think a lot of poeple have no problem with abuse leveled at what they see as the lower classes. Thanks for the well wishes though I hope so to!
    Grade-A trolling.
    seamus wrote: »
    The referendum on the rights of the child is going to bring up a lot of bizarre dirt from the Irish psyche, which we don't know exists.

    Idealogically, morally and outwardly the vast majority of Irish people condemn child abuse and want to see an end to it.

    However we also have a touch of anti-establishmentism in our heads and as society we strongly oppose the state sticking its nose between parents and their children (though we seemed to have no issue with the church doing it).
    Well done on your election to the post of spokesperson for the people of Ireland. I may have missed the polling but better late than never eh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    Well done on your election to the post of spokesperson for the people of Ireland. I may have missed the polling but better late than never eh.
    Do I have to start putting IMO at the end of every sentence now to avoid inadvertantly making it appear like I'm putting words in people's mouths?

    If you disagree with something I've said, then debate it, don't take offence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    A thread which takes as its basic premise "Irish people don't think child abuse is wrong" and goes on to ask why, is not someplace you can expect reasonable debate.
    seamus wrote: »
    Do I have to start putting IMO at the end of every sentence now to avoid inadvertantly making it appear like I'm putting words in people's mouths?

    If you disagree with something I've said, then debate it, don't take offence.
    Its this kind of armchair psychoanalysis that feeds into a lot of crazy narratives about Ireland, which further enables some of the lunatics who make it their daily business to incite as much baseless prejuidice against Irish people as possible. And there's no shortage of them.

    Lazy, sweeping, and negative statements about "the Irish" as a whole should not be encouraged.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Saying its wrong is great but the majority dont act on it.

    I honestly wouldn't know what to do to change it.
    biko wrote: »
    Woah, hold on there with your loaded questions, claiming all Irish people agree with child abuse.
    Just because it's high on your agenda doesn't mean it will be high on everyone's agenda. There are many problems and things wrong with today's society and not everyone will focus on what you personally deem important.

    steddyeddy, you are quick rightly angry as this is an issue that affects you personally. Those of us who have never suffered abuse or neglect still find it abhorrent, but like Biko said, it is not a personal issue for us. There are issues I feel passionate about that other people won't - that's human nature as opposed to apathy.
    What makes you even for a second consider we think it's alright?

    Most of us are not in a position to actively change a thing about it, doesn't mean we condone it anyway.

    The only people that thinks it's right are the abusers and if you've been on boards long enough, you'd have a fair idea of how most people here feel about those who abuse children.

    Exactly, we don't think it's right but are powerless to change it.
    Not flocking to mass would be a good start!

    I detest the CC, but this is an issue that occurs in families and communities as well. For those who still practise their religion, well it's their right to have their faith and express it. I doubt any of these condone the treatment of children by the CC.


    Fizzlesque, another detailed post, I'm sorry for your experiences and hope you continue to come to terms with it. It's awful to think of what families do to one another, but it's particularly tragic when children become victims in the one place they should always feel safe, loved and wanted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Looking back over the thread it may not be an actual trolling attempt but that's still a hell of thing to say.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 77 ✭✭Lord Bafford


    How so? I don't see why someone should stop being a practising Catholic because of the abuse that's been uncovered.

    The church, to this day, continue their vile attempts to cover up and obfuscate investigations into child abuse. They are also withholding payments to victims.

    What a lovely organisation to support on a weekly basis.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    The HSE system on children is broke. Not only the case of kids dying while in care but how children are looked after while in care. If a child was given voluntarily to the HSE the parent can take the child out when they want and if there is no contract for 5 years the child is turn over to the HSE but contract with the child might be a card on year 4 day 364


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Fizzlesque


    Fizzlesque, another detailed post, I'm sorry for your experiences and hope you continue to come to terms with it. It's awful to think of what families do to one another, but it's particularly tragic when children become victims in the one place they should always feel safe, loved and wanted.

    Cheers, Shopaholic.

    Yeah, some topics really bring out the detailed post writer in me, despite my best intentions to stick to the more frivolous topics/threads and to keep my posts short (ish).

    I do continue to come to terms with the hand fate flung at me, and to be honest, these days I'm very positive and full of good cheer - part of the reason I express myself so candidly is because the sweeping stuff under the carpet/let's pretend nothing is wrong that went with the abuse and neglect really hindered the healing process for me. I had to become the annoying therapy-attending member of my family, who brought up conversations people didn't want brought up, at the beginning of my journey back to good emotional health.

    Open and honest expression/communication was vital - and I had to really push to be allowed to have that, but in time it turned out to be the right thing to do --- all wounds have healed. Well, as much as they can.

    The silence makes matters much worse, I hope my posts don't depress people; I really mean it when I say I'm in a safe and sunny place now, even though the adoption pain still gnaws at my heart every day, I've come to terms with the tragic events that lead me to have to make that terrible decision in the first place.

    Those ads on TV with the abused children crying alone in their cots/beds afraid to tell anyone what's going on really get to me. I wish I could give every child a voice to be heard - and, I guess, in a small way, part of me still needs to use the voice I eventually managed to find.

    Right, that's enough for today. Life came good in the end, and I'm happy I stayed around long enough for that to happen. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,513 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    It looks like some people think all abuse is sexual. The report is about neglect and troubled children just as much as anything else.
    We don't have proper care facilities or monitor situations well enough. The country as whole doesn't disregard it. More likely not aware of the problem.
    Costs really are a factor. Proper care for children in trouble will cost more per child than providing a good school for more children. Ultimately that decision gets made.
    One reason democracy doesn't work.


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