Should men get paternity leave?

The Corinthian · 14-06-2012 12:21PM

RVP 11 wrote: »

It should be mandatory IMO.
Help take the pressure off the mother.

If that is the only reason you want to introduce paternity leave, you'll get little take up on it.

The history of paternity leave in other countries has often followed the same pattern; it's introduced typically before any other reform of father's rights and as a result most men don't avail of it.

Why? Because (as is the case in Ireland with unmarried fathers) you would be staying a home to care for a child you have the same legal relationship with as a babysitter you hired and as a result the message that "it's a woman's job" doesn't really change.

In places like Germany where paternity leave it turned out not to work at the start because of this. At first media campaigns were employed to counter the lack of take up. Then greater enforcement by having a portion of parental leave that had to be taken up by a man or lost, but ultimately it was only when the laws surrounding paternity rights began to be reformed that any real take up was seen.

runawaybishop · 14-06-2012 12:30PM

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

About as painful as it is to hear this trotted out in every baby thread.

Teyla Emmagan · 14-06-2012 12:51PM

I would be all for this. Minding a small baby is horrifically tough work, most new mothers would love a break at a desk to recover from it.

Eoin · 14-06-2012 01:16PM

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

1) Which is why there's a mandatory 6 week window when maternity leave must be taken. 6 months is not normally required for the physical recuperation.

2) It should be a choice that the parents can make together - if the mother doesn't feel fit to return to work earlier than the 6 months, then fine.

Teyla Emmagan wrote:

I would be all for this. Minding a small baby is horrifically tough work, most new mothers would love a break at a desk to recover from it.

And it's also pretty crap having to leave your newborn to go into work every day and miss out because the law discriminates against fathers. 2 sides to the story.

Sharrow wrote:

but until a majority of men lobby for it, it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately my local TD, Mary Mitchell O'Connor, is not receptive to the concept at all based on the email conversation I had with her. She is very quick to point out the gender pay gap and compare us to a country like Norway, yet ignore that Norway gives paternity leave. Apparently parental leave should be good enough for me.

hondasam · 14-06-2012 01:28PM

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=paternity%20leave%20europe&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FParental_leave&ei=stfZT9rlLMfLhAfvh9jpAw&usg=AFQjCNHMjp_7_eLX5n8t-_r0qyBM2NfWBA

How many men/women take the unpaid parental leave ?

starbelgrade · 14-06-2012 01:31PM

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

I had a 14 pound shite the other day.

Barely flinched.

Teyla Emmagan · 14-06-2012 01:32PM

Eoin wrote: »

1)
And it's also pretty crap having to leave your newborn to go into work every day and miss out because the law discriminates against fathers. 2 sides to the story.

I know. My post was more a reaction against the OP's. He seems to think that maternity leave consists of a few weeks off to laze around watching Jeremy Kyle while the baby takes care of itself. Hardly the case, if all the frazzled, exhausted and battered new mothers I know are anything to go by!

RoboRat · 14-06-2012 01:35PM

Im a new father (7 weeks old) and I hate the fact that I didn't get any paternity leave. I took 2 weeks as the wife had a section and needed me, but they were my holidays and now I have SFA holidays left and I am absolutely knackered and need a break.

I am up at 6.20 in the morn to commute, get home at 6, take the baby off the missus and look after him (bath him), put him down about 7.30 ,then go down and make the dinner. Eat dinner, clean up and do whatever needs to be done. Then I have to do the feed at 11, usually getting to bed about 12 back up at 3am to change him and up at 6.20 for work.

I am doing everything that I can to help and I miss not being there for my son as he is always in better form when I am there. The missus is breast feeding and she finds it incredibly difficult as he is always moaning and mooching because he can smell the milk and associates her with food! When I am minding him he is in great form and much happier.

I think the government need to look at Sweden and Norway as they seem to have a much better society in general and I am sure the fact that parents get to properly bond with their children has a lot to do with that.

hondasam · 14-06-2012 01:43PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I would be all for this. Minding a small baby is horrifically tough work, most new mothers would love a break at a desk to recover from it.

Working and having children is always going to be tough. Mother's who find it hard while at home with a newborn will find it increasingly difficult when it's time to go back to work.

Eoin · 14-06-2012 01:45PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I know. My post was more a reaction against the OP's. He seems to think that maternity leave consists of a few weeks off to laze around watching Jeremy Kyle while the baby takes care of itself. Hardly the case, if all the frazzled, exhausted and battered new mothers I know are anything to go by!

Yeah, the OP's post isn't that great a start to the conversation. But would the new mothers you know want to do what the guy in the post right below yours is doing? Because that's the reality for a lot of new fathers.

RoboRat · 14-06-2012 01:53PM

But would the new mothers you know want to do what the guy in the post right below yours is doing? Because that's the reality for a lot of new fathers.

It is bloody tough as I am trying to be actively involved and help my wife. I know she is having a hard time and I am doing my best to help her but I am exhausted and I just have to keep going - I don't have a choice as I need her to be OK as she is breast feeding him and I know that I have to put the baby and my wife first.

There are blokes out there who would take it as a 6 week hiatus and have a great time but there are also many blokes who would use it to help our partners and bond with our kids.

pwurple · 14-06-2012 01:59PM

seamus wrote: »

No, this is not possible under the normal rules. The woman is entitled to 26 weeks paid maternity benefit from the state. If she returns to work early, the balance is lost and can't be claimed at a later date or transferred to a partner.

There is actually one method by which the balance can be claimed by the husband. But the woman has to actually drop dead for it to be allowed.

It's called the widowers transfer.

hondasam · 14-06-2012 02:00PM

RoboRat wrote: »

It is bloody tough as I am trying to be actively involved and help my wife. I know she is having a hard time and I am doing my best to help her but I am exhausted and I just have to keep going - I don't have a choice as I need her to be OK as she is breast feeding him and I know that I have to put the baby and my wife first.

There are blokes out there who would take it as a 6 week hiatus and have a great time but there are also many blokes who would use it to help our partners and bond with our kids.

Don't take this the wrong way ok.

Your wife needs rest but so do you, she can catch a few hours during the day but you can't. I personally feel some mother's expect a bit much from working father's.
There are enough hours in the day for her to make dinner. If you get exhausted you will be no good to anyone her or baby.:)
I would add these are the easy months, it get's a lot harder when ye are both working.

Ickle Magoo · 14-06-2012 02:04PM

Those first few weeks with a newborn are an exhausting whirl-wind - it's ridiculous that fathers aren't legally entitled to have/share fully paid parental leave...I'm guessing it's another archaic throwback to the all-male policy makers with their out-dated notions on gender roles.

It's utterly short-sighted, in 2012, not to recognise the immediate and future familial, social and mental health benefits to ensuring both parents get some time to adjust to such a huge change in their lives, bond with their child and enjoy some time discovering parenthood together...and really disappointing that there is only one political party with any intentions of changing the status quo.

RoboRat · 14-06-2012 02:07PM

She is as busy as I am, she is working to the Gina Ford routine and she has to keep him awake which is a struggle all day. Unfortunately that is all happening when I am away at work so when I get in I look after the other things. Its crap in the short term but when the baby is sleeping the full night by 3 months its well worth it.

We are both very fair with each other and I get a lie in on Sunday and she gets it on Saturday.

Lyra Fangs · 14-06-2012 02:18PM

I think it's a disgrace that men don't get paternity leave. Not only do they miss out on bonding with their child during such a crucial period of their life but the mother is expected to care for the child by herself while the husband is at work. If both were given time off work then they could split the duties which would make the first few months of parenthood a lot easier for both of them.

jaja321 · 14-06-2012 02:41PM

RoboRat wrote: »

She is as busy as I am, she is working to the Gina Ford routine and she has to keep him awake which is a struggle all day. Unfortunately that is all happening when I am away at work so when I get in I look after the other things. Its crap in the short term but when the baby is sleeping the full night by 3 months its well worth it.

We are both very fair with each other and I get a lie in on Sunday and she gets it on Saturday.

The Gina Forde schedule is tough, but it works! With be worth it in the end. Best of luck

Unavailable for Comment · 14-06-2012 02:46PM

Has the disparity of the paid leave allocation got something to do with the fact that traditionally women didn't get paid as well as men so having them out of work wouldn't have such an economic impact on a business?

Lawrence1895 · 14-06-2012 02:49PM

Why not? It's like that in Germany for a good few years now, both parents can also share the paternity leave.

Eoin · 14-06-2012 03:21PM

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

Has the disparity of the paid leave allocation got something to do with the fact that traditionally women didn't get paid as well as men so having them out of work wouldn't have such an economic impact on a business?

I doubt it. There's no paid maternity leave in Irish employment law; just the right to take the leave.

Lyra Fangs wrote:

I think it's a disgrace that men don't get paternity leave. Not only do they miss out on bonding with their child during such a crucial period of their life but the mother is expected to care for the child by herself while the husband is at work. If both were given time off work then they could split the duties which would make the first few months of parenthood a lot easier for both of them.

I find your wording a little strange, while I agree with the overall point. In most cases, the parents do split the duties - but the father has to go into work as well. I don't know any new fathers who go home and put their feet up for the evening.

Unavailable for Comment · 14-06-2012 03:25PM

Eoin wrote: »

I doubt it. There's no paid maternity leave in Irish employment law; just the right to take the leave.

I always thought that was it. Guess not so! Anyway thanks.

Eoin · 14-06-2012 03:32PM

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

I always thought that was it. Guess not so! Anyway thanks.

There's a flat rate maternity benefit from the social welfare. Some companies pay the difference between that benefit and the salary, but I think that's becoming more rare these days.

Lyra Fangs · 14-06-2012 03:36PM

Eoin wrote: »

I doubt it. There's no paid maternity leave in Irish employment law; just the right to take the leave.

I find your wording a little strange, while I agree with the overall point. In most cases, the parents do split the duties - but the father has to go into work as well. I don't know any new fathers who go home and put their feet up for the evening.

I don't mean to suggest that working fathers come home and do nothing, I mean some do but most either help out with child care or give their spouse an hour or two off. I just think that the first few months of parenthood can be the hardest when you're just getting used to things and developing a routine. It would be better if both parents were available so they could give their child the best care possible.

Eoin · 14-06-2012 03:39PM

Fair enough. I tend to get annoyed when people think that the father has the easy number by "getting to go to work instead", but that's not what you were saying.

Unavailable for Comment · 14-06-2012 03:42PM

Eoin wrote: »

There's a flat rate maternity benefit from the social welfare. Some companies pay the difference between that benefit and the salary, but I think that's becoming more rare these days.

Are you legally obliged to take all of the time though? 26 weeks on a percentage of your salary is probably untenable for many.

Lyra Fangs · 14-06-2012 03:46PM

If anything I think the father has it harder. Looking after a child is undoubtedly hard work but I can only imagine how horrible it must be to have to get up every morning, leave your child to go to work then by the time you do get home they may have been put to bed so you don't get to spend any time with them.

I know of fathers who barely have a relationship with their child because they work such long hours that they get to see them for only a measly handful of hours a week, how can you bond under such conditions??

Eoin · 14-06-2012 04:00PM

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

Are you legally obliged to take all of the time though? 26 weeks on a percentage of your salary is probably untenable for many.

No, you only have to take 6 of those weeks. 2 before due date, and 4 after. But full time child care isn't cheap either, so it's not as if you're saving a huge amount by going back to work early.

OldNotWIse · 14-06-2012 04:07PM

Bad Panda wrote: »

I'm shocked a feminist group hasn't wailed about this yet. I mean, after all, all they want is equality. :rolleyes:

If it was men getting 26 weeks and women getting 24 they would have protested

Precious flower · 14-06-2012 04:11PM

Of course I don't see why the government doesn't see the importance of a father bonding with his new born baby. It would ease the burden for the mother too and would give them both time to adjust to the change.

homeOwner · 14-06-2012 04:11PM

RoboRat wrote: »

She is as busy as I am, she is working to the Gina Ford routine and she has to keep him awake which is a struggle all day. Unfortunately that is all happening when I am away at work so when I get in I look after the other things. Its crap in the short term but when the baby is sleeping the full night by 3 months its well worth it.

We are both very fair with each other and I get a lie in on Sunday and she gets it on Saturday.

The GF routine works really well for some people but I am pretty sure it does not advocate keeping a small baby awake all day. I don't know how old your baby is, but if you are following GF it should sleep for a few hours during the day, one sleep mid morning and another early afternoon, depending on age.

Your wife should be able to sleep herself or at least have a lie down when the baby is asleep, or if she is so inclined, use that time to make the dinner at least a few days a week to give you a break.

Having been through that routine recently with twins, both parents sharing tasks equally is really important to everyone's sanity.

We used to share the feeds, my husband would do the 11pm feed (I went to bed at 9pm) and I did the 2:30am feed while he slept and he was up to do the 6am feed while I showered and then took over while he went to work. I made the dinner and did laundry/cleaned while the twins had 1 of their naps and had a lie down for the other nap.

A few alterations to your routine might work wonders for you.
Good luck with it, its tough but it gets better!
Totally agree with you on the parental leave issue.

Should men get paternity leave?

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