Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Who would you vote for in the Greek election?

  • 12-06-2012 09:17PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭


    Greece faces elections this Sunday that will undoubtedly have enormous repercussions for both Greece and of course the European Union.

    So I ask you all to imagine you where a Greek. Who would you vote for?

    The choices a varied but not one party would leave you heading from your polling station delirious with hope and belief that your future is safe in their hands. First we have the pro-bailout parties who served in the government of national unity: New Democracy and Pasok whom are center right and center left respectively.

    ND "won" the May election in that they got the 50 seat bonus. They were in power between 2004-2009 and are seen to have caused many of the factors that led to Greece's current predicament. They would be considered by Europe and the markets as the safest pair of hands and would take less of the responsibility for the crisis when compared to Pasok.

    Pasok went from first to third in the last election and are best known for having negotiated Greece's bailouts and governing Greece through the recent crisis since 2009. They too are considered to have caused many of the problems leading up too the crisis during their time in government inthe 90's and early Noughties. The most infamous example being the currency swap with Goldman Sach which enabled them to hide 1 billion in debt when they where being admitted into the EU.

    There is a third small pro-bailout party. The Popular Orthodox Rally who would be ideologically slimier to the right wing of the UK Tories. They where decimated at the last election losing all their seats. This is seen largely as a result of having supported the National Unity Coalition.

    On the anti-bailout side the obvious contender is of course Syriza. Ideologically they are near impossible to explain. They are of course very left wing. But that is where their cohesion ends. They are 14 different political parties combined with numerous smaller movements and groups. Their rise had been velocious and they look set to take over 120 seats in this election should they manage to come first. Policy wise they pledge to scrap the bailout, raise the minimum wage, extend benefits, lower some rates of VAT, and prevent wage freezes and pension cuts in the public sector. They pledge their policies will create 150,000 jobs.

    If you dislike the bailout but are on the right of the political spectrum there is the Independent Greeks party. They are a ND splinter who did well in the last election by opposing the bailout and demanding German War reparations. They also want to see aggressive prosecution of the people they see as responsible for the crisis. They want a Greek re-awakening and are considered populist.

    Next we have the Communists. They need little explanation (anti-bailout, nationalize everything ect) but rather interestingly haven't been doing as well as they should be. At the last election they gained a meager 5 seats. Considering the times we live in that is rather poor.

    Golden Dawn are the party we all love to hate. Many would consider them Neo-Nazis due to their logo and their passion for a certain kind of memorabilia. Policies include putting land-mines on the Turkish border to stop immigration, sending immigrants home, "dealing" with gays and banning trade unions . They ran under the election slogan "So we can rid this land of filth".

    Finally we have the smallish Democratic Left. They are a Pasok splinter that are opposed to the bailout. They advocate government stimulus and reverses in cutbacks.

    So then, if you where a Greek, who would have your vote? Also how do you all think the elections will go? and what kind of government will form?


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,849 ✭✭✭SeanW


    The best of a very bad lot would be either Pasok or the Independent Greek Party (probably similar to UKIP).

    It's known that before George Papandraeu took office, noone actually knew how much money the Greek government was spending! They literally had to compile the books from scratch to realise how badly they were in trouble.

    Anyone with a caluculator can tell you that the Greek gov't needs to balance its books, one way or another but I don't know if austerity alone can fix their problems, it would help if they could default en-masse on all the debts and devalue their currency but that cannot happen while they're in the Euro.

    New Democracy I think bears too much responsibility for causing the crisis, I expect that kind of behaviour from the Left, but as conservatives they were supposed to be fiscally responsible.

    Golden Dawn are crazy, Syriza, too far left, communists don't get me started ...

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The words 'Giant Douche' and 'Turd Sandwich' immediately spring to mind!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,377 ✭✭✭GSF


    A worse line up of options than even the October Irish Presidential election.

    On balance and not knowing anything other that what the OP says about then, the Independent Greeks party sound the best. However if they dont have a hope of getting elected, wouldnt you vote tactically instead?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    None of the above has the gall to attempt reduction of their bloated public service workforce, which is a large part of the problem with Greece. The country's predicament goes back much further than 2004!

    Greece tends to have a similar problem to Ireland, in that a lot of people want everything for nothing.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,863 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Prince Philip.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Unquestionably I would vote for Syriza. They stand for a just solution to Greece's problems within the Euro.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    An effectively impossible choice, I would vote for a centre right party that weren't at fault for Greece's current problems. Unfortunately there isn't one so New Democracy I guess..

    As much as I sympathise with you average angry Greek who did nothing wrong, SYRIZA are just following the same path sinn fein are here, and it will not work out IMO. sure even some one within that party cam out recently and said what they're party is proposing will not work and is just populism


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Manach wrote: »
    Prince Philip.
    lol - good answer!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,377 ✭✭✭GSF


    Manach wrote: »
    Prince Philip.

    Its a common misunderstanding that he was actually Greek. Wasn't the family in fact Danish and the Greeks invited a minor royal family from Denmark to be head of state in Greece as was the fashion in the late 19th century?

    So they have a history of importing rulers. The troika is just a 21st century version of the same trick ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    If I were living in Greece I would vote for Syriza, and I sincerely hope that they secure a governing majority. Here's why:

    Up to now, many European left-wing parties, including Syriza and Sinn Fein, have been promoting fundamentally unworkable policies. The leader of Syriza says he wants Greece to stay in the euro and that he also wants the austerity policies introduced because of the bailout and because of Greece's membership of the euro to end. Implementing both of these is an impossibility. What he's demanding is all the economic benefits of the euro less the costs (in particular, having to run a sustainable budget in order to safeguard the other euro-members). He seemingly also believes that Greece has a right to borrow money off other European nations with no strings attached.

    This "have your cake and eat it too" policy basis is merely a special case of the general attitude of many left-wing parties, such as Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein are promising an Ireland in which we can reject the Troika (i.e., the currently cheapest source of funding) and yet somehow increase government spending without damaging the economy or risking bankruptcy. Their overall policy position, as it currently stands, is populist and contradictory.

    What is interesting about the Greek election is that a party promoting these kind of unworkable policies has an actual chance of getting in power. If they do get into power, the inherent contradictory nature of their policies will be fully exposed. Either they will have to backtrack on some policies in order to stay in the euro, or they'll plough ahead and be forced out of the euro. In either case, the fundamentally flawed nature of their policies and the policies of other European left-wing parties will be demonstrated in a dramatic fashion.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The words 'Giant Douche' and 'Turd Sandwich' immediately spring to mind!

    Yeah in situations like this that South Park episode always springs to mind.

    (BTW anyone who hasn't seen it should watch the South Parks guys yet again putting something very succinctly indeed).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Syriza promoting unworkable policies? What kind of policies were Pasok and ND supporting? Did they work?

    Interesting to see the overwhelmingly anti-left tenor of opinion on this thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Unquestionably I would vote for Syriza. They stand for a just solution to Greece's problems within the Euro.

    they may also stand for the tooth fairy, but they won't get it.

    Greece can not, and will not, remain in the Euro without both the bailout, and the strings that come with it. law of physics stuff, its just a physical impossiblity - they get to choose one or the other - but they can't have both.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    is there any greek opinion polls relative to this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    We'll just have to wait and see about that!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    We'll just have to wait and see about that!

    yes, we will - and its the Greeks who are going to pay the price regardless of their choices, not me - and not, i assume, you.

    this is the problem: if the Greeks go with this SYRIZA party they may get what they want, they may get a renegotiation while staying in the Eurozone - but they probably won't, because the Germans, who'd be the ones paying Greeces' bills in this event, say they won't.

    so, what will probably happen is that not only will they be forced out of the Euro, but they'll then have to cope with an auterity package - because they don't collect tax and no one will lend them a plastic bag let alone a few billion dollars - that makes the current auserity programme look positively benign.

    having people cheering them from the sidelines telling them that they can vote for whoever they like, pay whatever tax they like, spend what they like and that the rest of Europe will pick up the bill is frighteningly bad for Greece - they may believe it, and act on it - and then find themselves facing consequences that i rather doubt you'll have to face, and you wouldn't want to.


  • Site Banned Posts: 105 ✭✭telly_lover


    cristoir wrote: »
    Greece faces elections this Sunday that will undoubtedly have enormous repercussions for both Greece and of course the European Union.

    So I ask you all to imagine you where a Greek. Who would you vote for?

    The choices a varied but not one party would leave you heading from your polling station delirious with hope and belief that your future is safe in their hands. First we have the pro-bailout parties who served in the government of national unity: New Democracy and Pasok whom are center right and center left respectively.

    ND "won" the May election in that they got the 50 seat bonus. They were in power between 2004-2009 and are seen to have caused many of the factors that led to Greece's current predicament. They would be considered by Europe and the markets as the safest pair of hands and would take less of the responsibility for the crisis when compared to Pasok.

    Pasok went from first to third in the last election and are best known for having negotiated Greece's bailouts and governing Greece through the recent crisis since 2009. They too are considered to have caused many of the problems leading up too the crisis during their time in government inthe 90's and early Noughties. The most infamous example being the currency swap with Goldman Sach which enabled them to hide 1 billion in debt when they where being admitted into the EU.

    There is a third small pro-bailout party. The Popular Orthodox Rally who would be ideologically slimier to the right wing of the UK Tories. They where decimated at the last election losing all their seats. This is seen largely as a result of having supported the National Unity Coalition.

    On the anti-bailout side the obvious contender is of course Syriza. Ideologically they are near impossible to explain. They are of course very left wing. But that is where their cohesion ends. They are 14 different political parties combined with numerous smaller movements and groups. Their rise had been velocious and they look set to take over 120 seats in this election should they manage to come first. Policy wise they pledge to scrap the bailout, raise the minimum wage, extend benefits, lower some rates of VAT, and prevent wage freezes and pension cuts in the public sector. They pledge their policies will create 150,000 jobs.

    If you dislike the bailout but are on the right of the political spectrum there is the Independent Greeks party. They are a ND splinter who did well in the last election by opposing the bailout and demanding German War reparations. They also want to see aggressive prosecution of the people they see as responsible for the crisis. They want a Greek re-awakening and are considered populist.

    Next we have the Communists. They need little explanation (anti-bailout, nationalize everything ect) but rather interestingly haven't been doing as well as they should be. At the last election they gained a meager 5 seats. Considering the times we live in that is rather poor.

    Golden Dawn are the party we all love to hate. Many would consider them Neo-Nazis due to their logo and their passion for a certain kind of memorabilia. Policies include putting land-mines on the Turkish border to stop immigration, sending immigrants home, "dealing" with gays and banning trade unions . They ran under the election slogan "So we can rid this land of filth".

    Finally we have the smallish Democratic Left. They are a Pasok splinter that are opposed to the bailout. They advocate government stimulus and reverses in cutbacks.

    So then, if you where a Greek, who would have your vote? Also how do you all think the elections will go? and what kind of government will form?


    id vote for the anarchists who want to blow the lid off this whole sorry project , greece has a choice of massive pain for a few years or extended penury as a beggar at the table of the EU indefinatley

    while locked into a totally uncompetitive currency , they are incapable of injecting growth into their economy , why would anyone buy anything made in greece in euro when they can buy something made in germany , also in euro

    from an outside perspective , i hope the pro euro parties win


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    ...from an outside perspective , i hope the pro euro parties win

    surely it should the other way around?

    for their sake i hope they vote for a pro bailout government, because one of the upsides of servitude is that you get food and accommodation with it - but for everyone elses sake i hope they vote SYRIZA, leave the Euro and descend, very quickly, into utter chaos with a 50% cut in government spending by the end of next week, the refusal of oil and gas suppliers to sell to them in return for the 'new Dracma', and UN soup kitchens throughout the country as a warning to others about the dangers of putting your head in the sand and singing 'la la la i'm not listening...'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭cristoir


    is there any greek opinion polls relative to this?

    This is the BBC's poll of poll's:

    New Democracy: 27.4%

    SYRIZA: 26.2%

    PASOK: 13.7%

    Independent Greeks: 7.0%

    Democratic Left: 6.3%

    KKE: 5.1%

    Golden Dawn: 4.9%

    Margin of error +/- 2.7%


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    As a lefty, I'd have to say SYRIZA, with some reservations. They have no links to the parties and politicians that caused the mess, and they are among the few groups that hasn't been courting the xenophobic, anti-immigrant vote. That said, I feel they are being disingenuous by arguing that Greece can freeze it's payments and stay in the Euro - I don't think they can. But I'm not sure that Greece will stay in the Euro in the medium to long term anyway.

    KKE - dyed in the wool Stalinists, who don't want to get into government in any case (they have said as much).

    PASOK / ND - the same old faces that caused the mess. Corrupt with nothing to offer.

    Democratic Left - no real principles, just want to prop up any coalition that's cobbled together.

    Independent Greeks - populist nationalists, enough said.

    Golden Dawn - Nazis.

    All said and done, the Greeks have no particularly attractive choice, and whatever happens there is more hardship ahead. The challenge is to choose the direction that will mitigate that hardship as much as possible.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,849 ✭✭✭SeanW


    OS119 wrote: »
    but for everyone elses sake i hope they vote SYRIZA, leave the Euro and descend, very quickly, into utter chaos with a 50% cut in government spending by the end of next week, the refusal of oil and gas suppliers to sell to them in return for the 'new Dracma', and UN soup kitchens throughout the country as a warning to others about the dangers of putting your head in the sand and singing 'la la la i'm not listening...'
    I don't share this hope, for the simple reason that "anti-austerity" will continue to be a popular/populist soundbite for economic leftwing nutcases like the ULA and Sinn Fein. I wouldn't expect the outside world to learn anything from the chaos that Greece would suffer in a Syriza victory. So for the purpose of this exercise we must still consider what is best for Greece.

    As most others, I think they will have to balance their books, but I fear that without the ability to devalue their currency, default on their debt and stimulate their economy, e.g. direct resources towards modernising their businesses etc, austerity alone won't work.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,849 ✭✭✭SeanW


    BTW politics mods, could we have a poll in here?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    cristoir wrote: »
    On the anti-bailout side the obvious contender is of course Syriza. Ideologically they are near impossible to explain. They are of course very left wing. But that is where their cohesion ends. They are 14 different political parties combined with numerous smaller movements and groups. Their rise had been velocious and they look set to take over 120 seats in this election should they manage to come first. Policy wise they pledge to scrap the bailout, raise the minimum wage, extend benefits, lower some rates of VAT, and prevent wage freezes and pension cuts in the public sector. They pledge their policies will create 150,000 jobs.
    They also promise to cure cancer, find the Yeti, identify the man in the iron mask, and for an encore the whole parliamentary party is going to walk on water across the Mediterranean to reclaim Cyprus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭cristoir


    They also promise to cure cancer, find the Yeti, identify the man in the iron mask, and for an encore the whole parliamentary party is going to walk on water across the Mediterranean to reclaim Cyprus.

    It's interesting isn't it. I always thought parties like Syriza promised the world, the moon and the stars because they know they would never enter power. But now they find themselves in a position where they might actually have to deliver on those promises. So you would think they would tone it down a little?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    cristoir wrote: »
    It's interesting isn't it. I always thought parties like Syriza promised the world, the moon and the stars because they know they would never enter power. But know they find themselves in a position where they might actually have to deliver on those promises. So you would think they would tone it down a little?

    look at the LibDems in the UK - for donkies years they were a protest party: you could be a member of the LD's and believe pretty much anything - from Orange Book Liberalism of the 18th century to sandal-wearing Euro-Communism - but it didn't matter because they never had to form a coherent policy front that those who'se beliefs fell outside that policy front would then object to. as the 2010 election hoved into view and it looked quite likely that they would be somebodies coalition partner, and therefore had to become a bit more serious they still had to put in stuff that the leadership level of the party thought was bonkers and unrealistic - like their 'abolish tuition fees' promise - because their 'core vote' had been 'taught' by generations of LD leaders that this stuff was realistic and achievable...

    SYRIZA might be able to fiddle with some of the detail, but they are stuck on the central hook of their political existance - which is that they can ditch the bailout and its attendant conditions, and yet still remain in the Euro. they've got no wiggle room there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I'm still struck by the overwhelming skepticism towards Syriza on this thread.

    My prediction is as follows: If Syriza form a government, they will have to keep many of the bailout terms, but they will successfully negotiate the removal of some of the truly brutal measures in the bailout, such as the reduction in the minimum wage to below penury levels, which is a thing we managed to do last year.

    They will thus show that the austerity-only ideology can be successfully challenged, and will, I hope, at least partly vindicate the resistance shown by the ordinary Greek people.

    As I said before, time will tell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    I'm still struck by the overwhelming skepticism towards Syriza on this thread...

    people who promise the earth and tell you that it'll cost you nothing ought to be treated with skepticism, don't you think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166 ✭✭fianna saor


    golden dawn


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I call them Golden shower.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,453 ✭✭✭Icepick


    If I were living in Greece I would vote for Syriza, and I sincerely hope that they secure a governing majority. Here's why:

    Up to now, many European left-wing parties, including Syriza and Sinn Fein, have been promoting fundamentally unworkable policies. The leader of Syriza says he wants Greece to stay in the euro and that he also wants the austerity policies introduced because of the bailout and because of Greece's membership of the euro to end. Implementing both of these is an impossibility. What he's demanding is all the economic benefits of the euro less the costs (in particular, having to run a sustainable budget in order to safeguard the other euro-members). He seemingly also believes that Greece has a right to borrow money off other European nations with no strings attached.

    This "have your cake and eat it too" policy basis is merely a special case of the general attitude of many left-wing parties, such as Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein are promising an Ireland in which we can reject the Troika (i.e., the currently cheapest source of funding) and yet somehow increase government spending without damaging the economy or risking bankruptcy. Their overall policy position, as it currently stands, is populist and contradictory.

    What is interesting about the Greek election is that a party promoting these kind of unworkable policies has an actual chance of getting in power. If they do get into power, the inherent contradictory nature of their policies will be fully exposed. Either they will have to backtrack on some policies in order to stay in the euro, or they'll plough ahead and be forced out of the euro. In either case, the fundamentally flawed nature of their policies and the policies of other European left-wing parties will be demonstrated in a dramatic fashion.
    Such parties have governed Western countries in the past and communism reigned in half of Europe for decades already.


Advertisement
Advertisement