Who would you vote for in the Greek election?

cristoir

Greece faces elections this Sunday that will undoubtedly have enormous repercussions for both Greece and of course the European Union.

So I ask you all to imagine you where a Greek. Who would you vote for?

The choices a varied but not one party would leave you heading from your polling station delirious with hope and belief that your future is safe in their hands. First we have the pro-bailout parties who served in the government of national unity: New Democracy and Pasok whom are center right and center left respectively.

ND "won" the May election in that they got the 50 seat bonus. They were in power between 2004-2009 and are seen to have caused many of the factors that led to Greece's current predicament. They would be considered by Europe and the markets as the safest pair of hands and would take less of the responsibility for the crisis when compared to Pasok.

Pasok went from first to third in the last election and are best known for having negotiated Greece's bailouts and governing Greece through the recent crisis since 2009. They too are considered to have caused many of the problems leading up too the crisis during their time in government inthe 90's and early Noughties. The most infamous example being the currency swap with Goldman Sach which enabled them to hide 1 billion in debt when they where being admitted into the EU.

There is a third small pro-bailout party. The Popular Orthodox Rally who would be ideologically slimier to the right wing of the UK Tories. They where decimated at the last election losing all their seats. This is seen largely as a result of having supported the National Unity Coalition.

On the anti-bailout side the obvious contender is of course Syriza. Ideologically they are near impossible to explain. They are of course very left wing. But that is where their cohesion ends. They are 14 different political parties combined with numerous smaller movements and groups. Their rise had been velocious and they look set to take over 120 seats in this election should they manage to come first. Policy wise they pledge to scrap the bailout, raise the minimum wage, extend benefits, lower some rates of VAT, and prevent wage freezes and pension cuts in the public sector. They pledge their policies will create 150,000 jobs.

If you dislike the bailout but are on the right of the political spectrum there is the Independent Greeks party. They are a ND splinter who did well in the last election by opposing the bailout and demanding German War reparations. They also want to see aggressive prosecution of the people they see as responsible for the crisis. They want a Greek re-awakening and are considered populist.

Next we have the Communists. They need little explanation (anti-bailout, nationalize everything ect) but rather interestingly haven't been doing as well as they should be. At the last election they gained a meager 5 seats. Considering the times we live in that is rather poor.

Golden Dawn are the party we all love to hate. Many would consider them Neo-Nazis due to their logo and their passion for a certain kind of memorabilia. Policies include putting land-mines on the Turkish border to stop immigration, sending immigrants home, "dealing" with gays and banning trade unions . They ran under the election slogan "So we can rid this land of filth".

Finally we have the smallish Democratic Left. They are a Pasok splinter that are opposed to the bailout. They advocate government stimulus and reverses in cutbacks.

So then, if you where a Greek, who would have your vote? Also how do you all think the elections will go? and what kind of government will form?

SeanW

The best of a very bad lot would be either Pasok or the Independent Greek Party (probably similar to UKIP).

It's known that before George Papandraeu took office, noone actually knew how much money the Greek government was spending! They literally had to compile the books from scratch to realise how badly they were in trouble.

Anyone with a caluculator can tell you that the Greek gov't needs to balance its books, one way or another but I don't know if austerity alone can fix their problems, it would help if they could default en-masse on all the debts and devalue their currency but that cannot happen while they're in the Euro.

New Democracy I think bears too much responsibility for causing the crisis, I expect that kind of behaviour from the Left, but as conservatives they were supposed to be fiscally responsible.

Golden Dawn are crazy, Syriza, too far left, communists don't get me started ...

The words 'Giant Douche' and 'Turd Sandwich' immediately spring to mind!

GSF

A worse line up of options than even the October Irish Presidential election.

On balance and not knowing anything other that what the OP says about then, the Independent Greeks party sound the best. However if they dont have a hope of getting elected, wouldnt you vote tactically instead?

JustinDee

None of the above has the gall to attempt reduction of their bloated public service workforce, which is a large part of the problem with Greece. The country's predicament goes back much further than 2004!

Greece tends to have a similar problem to Ireland, in that a lot of people want everything for nothing.

Manach

Prince Philip.

Boulevardier

Unquestionably I would vote for Syriza. They stand for a just solution to Greece's problems within the Euro.

Zonda999

An effectively impossible choice, I would vote for a centre right party that weren't at fault for Greece's current problems. Unfortunately there isn't one so New Democracy I guess..

As much as I sympathise with you average angry Greek who did nothing wrong, SYRIZA are just following the same path sinn fein are here, and it will not work out IMO. sure even some one within that party cam out recently and said what they're party is proposing will not work and is just populism

JustinDee

Manach wrote: »

Prince Philip.

lol - good answer!

GSF

Manach wrote: »

Prince Philip.

Its a common misunderstanding that he was actually Greek. Wasn't the family in fact Danish and the Greeks invited a minor royal family from Denmark to be head of state in Greece as was the fashion in the late 19th century?

So they have a history of importing rulers. The troika is just a 21st century version of the same trick

Eliot Rosewater

If I were living in Greece I would vote for Syriza, and I sincerely hope that they secure a governing majority. Here's why:

Up to now, many European left-wing parties, including Syriza and Sinn Fein, have been promoting fundamentally unworkable policies. The leader of Syriza says he wants Greece to stay in the euro and that he also wants the austerity policies introduced because of the bailout and because of Greece's membership of the euro to end. Implementing both of these is an impossibility. What he's demanding is all the economic benefits of the euro less the costs (in particular, having to run a sustainable budget in order to safeguard the other euro-members). He seemingly also believes that Greece has a right to borrow money off other European nations with no strings attached.

This "have your cake and eat it too" policy basis is merely a special case of the general attitude of many left-wing parties, such as Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein are promising an Ireland in which we can reject the Troika (i.e., the currently cheapest source of funding) and yet somehow increase government spending without damaging the economy or risking bankruptcy. Their overall policy position, as it currently stands, is populist and contradictory.

What is interesting about the Greek election is that a party promoting these kind of unworkable policies has an actual chance of getting in power. If they do get into power, the inherent contradictory nature of their policies will be fully exposed. Either they will have to backtrack on some policies in order to stay in the euro, or they'll plough ahead and be forced out of the euro. In either case, the fundamentally flawed nature of their policies and the policies of other European left-wing parties will be demonstrated in a dramatic fashion.

meglome

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The words 'Giant Douche' and 'Turd Sandwich' immediately spring to mind!

Yeah in situations like this that South Park episode always springs to mind.

(BTW anyone who hasn't seen it should watch the South Parks guys yet again putting something very succinctly indeed).

Boulevardier

Syriza promoting unworkable policies? What kind of policies were Pasok and ND supporting? Did they work?

Interesting to see the overwhelmingly anti-left tenor of opinion on this thread.

OS119

Boulevardier wrote: »

Unquestionably I would vote for Syriza. They stand for a just solution to Greece's problems within the Euro.

they may also stand for the tooth fairy, but they won't get it.

Greece can not, and will not, remain in the Euro without both the bailout, and the strings that come with it. law of physics stuff, its just a physical impossiblity - they get to choose one or the other - but they can't have both.

celtictiger32

is there any greek opinion polls relative to this?

Boulevardier

We'll just have to wait and see about that!

OS119

Boulevardier wrote: »

We'll just have to wait and see about that!

yes, we will - and its the Greeks who are going to pay the price regardless of their choices, not me - and not, i assume, you.

this is the problem: if the Greeks go with this SYRIZA party they may get what they want, they may get a renegotiation while staying in the Eurozone - but they probably won't, because the Germans, who'd be the ones paying Greeces' bills in this event, say they won't.

so, what will probably happen is that not only will they be forced out of the Euro, but they'll then have to cope with an auterity package - because they don't collect tax and no one will lend them a plastic bag let alone a few billion dollars - that makes the current auserity programme look positively benign.

having people cheering them from the sidelines telling them that they can vote for whoever they like, pay whatever tax they like, spend what they like and that the rest of Europe will pick up the bill is frighteningly bad for Greece - they may believe it, and act on it - and then find themselves facing consequences that i rather doubt you'll have to face, and you wouldn't want to.

telly_lover

cristoir wrote: »

Greece faces elections this Sunday that will undoubtedly have enormous repercussions for both Greece and of course the European Union.

So I ask you all to imagine you where a Greek. Who would you vote for?

The choices a varied but not one party would leave you heading from your polling station delirious with hope and belief that your future is safe in their hands. First we have the pro-bailout parties who served in the government of national unity: New Democracy and Pasok whom are center right and center left respectively.

ND "won" the May election in that they got the 50 seat bonus. They were in power between 2004-2009 and are seen to have caused many of the factors that led to Greece's current predicament. They would be considered by Europe and the markets as the safest pair of hands and would take less of the responsibility for the crisis when compared to Pasok.

Pasok went from first to third in the last election and are best known for having negotiated Greece's bailouts and governing Greece through the recent crisis since 2009. They too are considered to have caused many of the problems leading up too the crisis during their time in government inthe 90's and early Noughties. The most infamous example being the currency swap with Goldman Sach which enabled them to hide 1 billion in debt when they where being admitted into the EU.

There is a third small pro-bailout party. The Popular Orthodox Rally who would be ideologically slimier to the right wing of the UK Tories. They where decimated at the last election losing all their seats. This is seen largely as a result of having supported the National Unity Coalition.

On the anti-bailout side the obvious contender is of course Syriza. Ideologically they are near impossible to explain. They are of course very left wing. But that is where their cohesion ends. They are 14 different political parties combined with numerous smaller movements and groups. Their rise had been velocious and they look set to take over 120 seats in this election should they manage to come first. Policy wise they pledge to scrap the bailout, raise the minimum wage, extend benefits, lower some rates of VAT, and prevent wage freezes and pension cuts in the public sector. They pledge their policies will create 150,000 jobs.

If you dislike the bailout but are on the right of the political spectrum there is the Independent Greeks party. They are a ND splinter who did well in the last election by opposing the bailout and demanding German War reparations. They also want to see aggressive prosecution of the people they see as responsible for the crisis. They want a Greek re-awakening and are considered populist.

Next we have the Communists. They need little explanation (anti-bailout, nationalize everything ect) but rather interestingly haven't been doing as well as they should be. At the last election they gained a meager 5 seats. Considering the times we live in that is rather poor.

Golden Dawn are the party we all love to hate. Many would consider them Neo-Nazis due to their logo and their passion for a certain kind of memorabilia. Policies include putting land-mines on the Turkish border to stop immigration, sending immigrants home, "dealing" with gays and banning trade unions . They ran under the election slogan "So we can rid this land of filth".

Finally we have the smallish Democratic Left. They are a Pasok splinter that are opposed to the bailout. They advocate government stimulus and reverses in cutbacks.

So then, if you where a Greek, who would have your vote? Also how do you all think the elections will go? and what kind of government will form?

id vote for the anarchists who want to blow the lid off this whole sorry project , greece has a choice of massive pain for a few years or extended penury as a beggar at the table of the EU indefinatley

while locked into a totally uncompetitive currency , they are incapable of injecting growth into their economy , why would anyone buy anything made in greece in euro when they can buy something made in germany , also in euro

from an outside perspective , i hope the pro euro parties win

OS119

telly_lover wrote: »

...from an outside perspective , i hope the pro euro parties win

surely it should the other way around?

for their sake i hope they vote for a pro bailout government, because one of the upsides of servitude is that you get food and accommodation with it - but for everyone elses sake i hope they vote SYRIZA, leave the Euro and descend, very quickly, into utter chaos with a 50% cut in government spending by the end of next week, the refusal of oil and gas suppliers to sell to them in return for the 'new Dracma', and UN soup kitchens throughout the country as a warning to others about the dangers of putting your head in the sand and singing 'la la la i'm not listening...'

cristoir

celtictiger32 wrote: »

is there any greek opinion polls relative to this?

This is the BBC's poll of poll's:

New Democracy: 27.4%

SYRIZA: 26.2%

PASOK: 13.7%

Independent Greeks: 7.0%

Democratic Left: 6.3%

KKE: 5.1%

Golden Dawn: 4.9%

Margin of error +/- 2.7%

Benny_Cake

As a lefty, I'd have to say SYRIZA, with some reservations. They have no links to the parties and politicians that caused the mess, and they are among the few groups that hasn't been courting the xenophobic, anti-immigrant vote. That said, I feel they are being disingenuous by arguing that Greece can freeze it's payments and stay in the Euro - I don't think they can. But I'm not sure that Greece will stay in the Euro in the medium to long term anyway.

KKE - dyed in the wool Stalinists, who don't want to get into government in any case (they have said as much).

PASOK / ND - the same old faces that caused the mess. Corrupt with nothing to offer.

Democratic Left - no real principles, just want to prop up any coalition that's cobbled together.

Independent Greeks - populist nationalists, enough said.

Golden Dawn - Nazis.

All said and done, the Greeks have no particularly attractive choice, and whatever happens there is more hardship ahead. The challenge is to choose the direction that will mitigate that hardship as much as possible.

SeanW

OS119 wrote: »

but for everyone elses sake i hope they vote SYRIZA, leave the Euro and descend, very quickly, into utter chaos with a 50% cut in government spending by the end of next week, the refusal of oil and gas suppliers to sell to them in return for the 'new Dracma', and UN soup kitchens throughout the country as a warning to others about the dangers of putting your head in the sand and singing 'la la la i'm not listening...'

I don't share this hope, for the simple reason that "anti-austerity" will continue to be a popular/populist soundbite for economic leftwing nutcases like the ULA and Sinn Fein. I wouldn't expect the outside world to learn anything from the chaos that Greece would suffer in a Syriza victory. So for the purpose of this exercise we must still consider what is best for Greece.

As most others, I think they will have to balance their books, but I fear that without the ability to devalue their currency, default on their debt and stimulate their economy, e.g. direct resources towards modernising their businesses etc, austerity alone won't work.

SeanW

BTW politics mods, could we have a poll in here?

Monty Burnz

cristoir wrote: »

On the anti-bailout side the obvious contender is of course Syriza. Ideologically they are near impossible to explain. They are of course very left wing. But that is where their cohesion ends. They are 14 different political parties combined with numerous smaller movements and groups. Their rise had been velocious and they look set to take over 120 seats in this election should they manage to come first. Policy wise they pledge to scrap the bailout, raise the minimum wage, extend benefits, lower some rates of VAT, and prevent wage freezes and pension cuts in the public sector. They pledge their policies will create 150,000 jobs.

They also promise to cure cancer, find the Yeti, identify the man in the iron mask, and for an encore the whole parliamentary party is going to walk on water across the Mediterranean to reclaim Cyprus.

cristoir

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They also promise to cure cancer, find the Yeti, identify the man in the iron mask, and for an encore the whole parliamentary party is going to walk on water across the Mediterranean to reclaim Cyprus.

It's interesting isn't it. I always thought parties like Syriza promised the world, the moon and the stars because they know they would never enter power. But now they find themselves in a position where they might actually have to deliver on those promises. So you would think they would tone it down a little?

OS119

cristoir wrote: »

It's interesting isn't it. I always thought parties like Syriza promised the world, the moon and the stars because they know they would never enter power. But know they find themselves in a position where they might actually have to deliver on those promises. So you would think they would tone it down a little?

look at the LibDems in the UK - for donkies years they were a protest party: you could be a member of the LD's and believe pretty much anything - from Orange Book Liberalism of the 18th century to sandal-wearing Euro-Communism - but it didn't matter because they never had to form a coherent policy front that those who'se beliefs fell outside that policy front would then object to. as the 2010 election hoved into view and it looked quite likely that they would be somebodies coalition partner, and therefore had to become a bit more serious they still had to put in stuff that the leadership level of the party thought was bonkers and unrealistic - like their 'abolish tuition fees' promise - because their 'core vote' had been 'taught' by generations of LD leaders that this stuff was realistic and achievable...

SYRIZA might be able to fiddle with some of the detail, but they are stuck on the central hook of their political existance - which is that they can ditch the bailout and its attendant conditions, and yet still remain in the Euro. they've got no wiggle room there.

Boulevardier

I'm still struck by the overwhelming skepticism towards Syriza on this thread.

My prediction is as follows: If Syriza form a government, they will have to keep many of the bailout terms, but they will successfully negotiate the removal of some of the truly brutal measures in the bailout, such as the reduction in the minimum wage to below penury levels, which is a thing we managed to do last year.

They will thus show that the austerity-only ideology can be successfully challenged, and will, I hope, at least partly vindicate the resistance shown by the ordinary Greek people.

As I said before, time will tell.

OS119

Boulevardier wrote: »

I'm still struck by the overwhelming skepticism towards Syriza on this thread...

people who promise the earth and tell you that it'll cost you nothing ought to be treated with skepticism, don't you think?

fianna saor

golden dawn

Boulevardier

I call them Golden shower.

Icepick

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

If I were living in Greece I would vote for Syriza, and I sincerely hope that they secure a governing majority. Here's why:

Up to now, many European left-wing parties, including Syriza and Sinn Fein, have been promoting fundamentally unworkable policies. The leader of Syriza says he wants Greece to stay in the euro and that he also wants the austerity policies introduced because of the bailout and because of Greece's membership of the euro to end. Implementing both of these is an impossibility. What he's demanding is all the economic benefits of the euro less the costs (in particular, having to run a sustainable budget in order to safeguard the other euro-members). He seemingly also believes that Greece has a right to borrow money off other European nations with no strings attached.

This "have your cake and eat it too" policy basis is merely a special case of the general attitude of many left-wing parties, such as Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein are promising an Ireland in which we can reject the Troika (i.e., the currently cheapest source of funding) and yet somehow increase government spending without damaging the economy or risking bankruptcy. Their overall policy position, as it currently stands, is populist and contradictory.

What is interesting about the Greek election is that a party promoting these kind of unworkable policies has an actual chance of getting in power. If they do get into power, the inherent contradictory nature of their policies will be fully exposed. Either they will have to backtrack on some policies in order to stay in the euro, or they'll plough ahead and be forced out of the euro. In either case, the fundamentally flawed nature of their policies and the policies of other European left-wing parties will be demonstrated in a dramatic fashion.

Such parties have governed Western countries in the past and communism reigned in half of Europe for decades already.

Monty Burnz

Icepick wrote: »

Such parties have governed Western countries in the past and communism reigned in half of Europe for decades already.

How did that pan out anyhow?

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

While I certainly agree with the giant douche/turd sandwich assessment, Cartman is not a candidate in this election. OT posts deleted; can we get back to discussing Greece please?

cristoir

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How did that pan out anyhow?

Trabants for some, ration queues for others!

Denerick

I'd vote for Syriza just to watch it all burn down.

Lets be realistic, we've been playing Russian roulette for five years now. Just pull the trigger and let the whole thing unravel in a grand pantheon of human suffering and misery, brought about by a combination of bad politicians and even worse citizens. (People like giving citizens an easy ride but democracy has responsibilities as well as rights, and one of those responsibilities means not being blind to reality or incredibly ignorant of hard facts.)

Let it burn!

Pedant

I'm far from the radical-left ideology of Syriza (I'm for free-markets, etc.), but I'd love to see an end to this bailout nonsense, which I regard as utterly immoral. However, in the long run it's going to be bad for Greece - the whole debacle could end up in a civil war between the extreme right and left.

Pedant

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

What is interesting about the Greek election is that a party promoting these kind of unworkable policies has an actual chance of getting in power. If they do get into power, the inherent contradictory nature of their policies will be fully exposed. Either they will have to backtrack on some policies in order to stay in the euro, or they'll plough ahead and be forced out of the euro. In either case, the fundamentally flawed nature of their policies and the policies of other European left-wing parties will be demonstrated in a dramatic fashion.

Goody!! It'll be like the Berlin Wall all over again.

Boulevardier

I cannot believe the ignorance of some postings on this thread. What have Syriza got to do with the Berlin wall or trabants? They are democratic socialists, and as such they represent the hopes and aspirations of many Greek people.

Their policies are aimed at relieving the brutal neoliberalism represented by the Merkel bailout. For that reason, instead of carping about them, we should be backing them to the hilt and our government should be supporting their demands at every opportunity.

I think it is a real shame that most posters on this thread seem to subscribe to the sort of right-wing gibberish that has already done so much harm to so much of Europe.

Monty Burnz

Boulevardier wrote: »

I cannot believe the ignorance of some postings on this thread. What have Syriza got to do with the Berlin wall or trabants? They are democratic socialists, and as such they represent the hopes and aspirations of many Greek people.

Their policies are aimed at relieving the brutal neoliberalism represented by the Merkel bailout. For that reason, instead of carping about them, we should be backing them to the hilt and our government should be supporting their demands at every opportunity.

I think it is a real shame that most posters on this thread seem to subscribe to the sort of right-wing gibberish that has already done so much harm to so much of Europe.

And I find it odd that some people don't (want to?) remember how 'democratic socialism' actually turns out in practice.

OS119

Boulevardier wrote: »

...and as such they represent the hopes and aspirations of many Greek people.

given that the Greek people have consistantly, knowingly voted for the most moronic, corrupt, populist choice available since they buried Aristotle, then SYRIZA will give them all what they so richly deserve.

Popcorn, 6 pack, sofa and 24hr news - my entertainment for the next few weeks will be either watching a load of opportunists doing some frantic back-peddling once the Greeks have been stupid enough to put them in government, or watching Greece turn in to Somalia on the Med, or Zimbabwe...

Boulevardier

"given that the Greek people have consistantly, knowingly voted for the most moronic, corrupt, populist choice available since they buried Aristotle, then SYRIZA will give them all what they so richly deserve."

Can we really talk?

sarumite

Boulevardier wrote: »

"given that the Greek people have consistantly, knowingly voted for the most moronic, corrupt, populist choice available since they buried Aristotle, then SYRIZA will give them all what they so richly deserve."

Can we really talk?

Yes. We had a choice between the populist hard left of ULA/SF (the equivalent of Syriza) or the realists of FG/Lab. The majority of people were not fooled by ULA/SF brand of snake oil.

OS119

Boulevardier wrote: »

...Can we really talk?

Ireland has a number of societal/political issues (imv) that causes it to shoot itself in the foot on occasion - but at no stage has taxation been voluntary, nor have its governments believed that the easing off of tax collection because there's an election on the horizon is a legitimate policy of state...

i would set fire to my Children before i would vote for FF - let alone the comedians of SF/ULA - but compared to the average Greek Government of the last 60 years, FF were a bastion of frugal, upstanding Teutonic prudence.

which is not a statement you ever thought you'd read.

Nodin

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And I find it odd that some people don't (want to?) remember how 'democratic socialism' actually turns out in practice.

Sweden?

Monty Burnz

Nodin wrote: »

Sweden?

That's right, that's what Karl Marx had in mind - a capitalist country with social provisions...

Denerick

Boulevardier wrote: »

I cannot believe the ignorance of some postings on this thread. What have Syriza got to do with the Berlin wall or trabants? They are democratic socialists, and as such they represent the hopes and aspirations of many Greek people.

Their policies are aimed at relieving the brutal neoliberalism represented by the Merkel bailout. For that reason, instead of carping about them, we should be backing them to the hilt and our government should be supporting their demands at every opportunity.

I think it is a real shame that most posters on this thread seem to subscribe to the sort of right-wing gibberish that has already done so much harm to so much of Europe.

I'm left wing but I'm not stupid.

The policies of the hard left and eurocommunist parties are literally unworkable in the modern capitalist system. They would require a return to nationalisation on a mass scale, with the borders closed off from cheaper foreign imports, and the assumption that millions of people won't emigrate once their disastrous and reality denying economic policies are enforced.

Do you really believe that the present economic model in Greece is sustainable? Where will the Greeks get the financing for the extra social spending and tax cuts that the delusional idiots of the far left propose? You can gripe about bailouts and austerity all you want, the reality is that you can't keep spending other people's money without a viable long or medium term strategy to pay it back. The Greek left's stance is that it won't pay it back. Which just means that no-one will lend to them in the future.

I'd have a lot more time for silly 'democratic socialist' economics if they engaged with the real world rather than pandering to people who don't know any better and can't see the inherent stupidity in their policies.

rightwingdub

If I were Greek I wouldn't vote for any of the parties they are all financially and economically illiterate, when democracy was restored to Greece in 1974 the so called centre right governing party New Democracy embarked on a mass scale nationalisation programme of greek industry that would make a marxist proud, new democracy are not a centre right right party when it comes to the Greek economy, they are big government statists.

SeanW

OS119 wrote: »

given that the Greek people have consistantly, knowingly voted for the most moronic, corrupt, populist choice available since they buried Aristotle, then SYRIZA will give them all what they so richly deserve.

Popcorn, 6 pack, sofa and 24hr news - my entertainment for the next few weeks will be either watching a load of opportunists doing some frantic back-peddling once the Greeks have been stupid enough to put them in government, or watching Greece turn in to Somalia on the Med, or Zimbabwe...

Good grief! You mean to tell everyone that you are looking forward to watching the Greek people suffer under SYRIZA and are going to watch the chaos like a good mini-series?

Just because a people behaved stupidly and irresponsibly as the Greeks have done (though Eurozone membership also hurt - Greece should never have (been allowed to) join the Euro), doesn't suddenly mean they are worthy of that level of contempt, and that we should not have some sympathy for them.

Well, if that's the kind of person you are, enjoy the show I guess. If the likes of Nigel Farage are right, you might be in for a real treat! :mad:

Monty Burnz

SeanW wrote: »

Good grief! You mean to tell everyone that you are looking forward to watching the Greek people suffer under SYRIZA and are going to watch the chaos like a good mini-series?

Just because a people behaved stupidly and irresponsibly as the Greeks have done (though Eurozone membership also hurt - Greece should never have (been allowed to) join the Euro), doesn't suddenly mean they are worthy of that level of contempt, and that we should not have some sympathy for them.

Well, if that's the kind of person you are, enjoy the show I guess. If the likes of Nigel Farage are right, you might be in for a real treat! :mad:

What can you do though? You can't save people from themselves, so you might as well enjoy the bonfire. What do you suggest, a compassionate UN invasion to install the government WE think they should have?

OS119

SeanW wrote: »

..doesn't suddenly mean they are worthy of that level of contempt, and that we should not have some sympathy for them...

i have some sympathy for them, and would be very happy if they could find some solution to their problems that sees them with a functioning, 1st world state and doesn't see any other country - countries that, for instance, don't believe that the profession of Hairdresser is so arduous that its members should retire at 55 - getting the bill.

however, stupid should have a cost, otherwise no one would learn to be smart - ideally that cost should be of short duration, and not harmful in the long term, but sadly, long term, repeated, public stupidity is unlikely to have such a small cost. the saddest thing is that Greece has had a number of opportunities to use borrowed money as a bridge/buffer between their electioneering and the reality of what they can afford - and each time they've chosen to spend it like water and then howl when it runs out.

despite your natural sympthy with Greece you will not, i assume, be lobbying your TD to get the government to either cut Irish SW payments by 10%, or borrow another £7bn from the UK at 6%+ you can send the Greeks a big wedge?

SeanW

OS119 wrote: »

despite your natural sympthy with Greece you will not, i assume, be lobbying your TD to get the government to either cut Irish SW payments by 10%, or borrow another £7bn from the UK at 6%+ you can send the Greeks a big wedge?

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What can you do though? You can't save people from themselves, so you might as well enjoy the bonfire. What do you suggest, a compassionate UN invasion to install the government WE think they should have?

You are both correct in that there is nothing we can do for Greece, with the possible exception of letting them leave the Euro so that they have some chance to start again. That is not where I have the issue.

What I take issue with is your "gonna crack open a 6 pack and popcorn" and "might as well enjoy the bonfire" comments.

What exactly is there going to be to enjoy?