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Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

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  • #212
    AngeGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 927 ✭✭✭AngeGal


    Shelflife wrote: »
    AngeGal wrote: »
    Some people in this thread are friends with Michelle Smith and will never change their position. At least I hope they are, as that would go some way towards jusrifying their head in the sand approach.

    The reality is she improved just under 20 seconds (19.77 seconds to be precise) in the 400m between 1992 and 1996. If those aforementioned people could point out any other female swimmer ever who improved that much at a similiar age as Smith, I would be much obliged.

    You won't though because it isn't possible, it just doesn't happen.[/QUOTE]

    I dont know her at all, for the record i believe that she was as clean as the rest of her fellow swimmers.

    Montjeu bred horses have never won the champion hurdle, it just doesnt happen until hurricane fly came along !

    All swans are white , until they found the black swan,

    it just doesn't happen, thats really not a valid arguement.


    It's a perfectly valid argument, your examples are completely different. Hurricane fly has always been talented, not like he was struggling in maidens in Ballinrobe or anything. The black swan is just totally unrelated.

    She was at an age when virtually all swimmers are declining or struggling to maintain their standard yet she managed an incredible unprecedented improvement. It isn't naturally possible, no professional swimmer has ever done anything even remotely close to that level of improvement at a comparable age.


  • #213
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Shelflife wrote: »
    Ok you are basing improvement in her performance on the fact that she was tested positive long after the improvement.

    so how far back do you do you go with this analogy? you cant just pick a point (however logical that may be ) and say she started taking drugs there and this led to the improvement.

    by default, in your agrument she must have always being taking drugs, and therefore the improvement may not be drug related at all.

    Errrrrrrr, to the improvement! If she didn't have a superhuman improvement we wouldn't be discussing Olympic medals!

    From my memory of the games O'Toole did hint at something amiss with it, even on RTE.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #214
    Shelflife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    AngeGal wrote: »
    Shelflife wrote: »


    It's a perfectly valid argument, your examples are completely different. Hurricane fly has always been talented, not like he was struggling in maidens in Ballinrobe or anything. The black swan is just totally unrelated.

    She was at an age when virtually all swimmers are declining or struggling to maintain their standard yet she managed an incredible unprecedented improvement. It isn't naturally possible, no professional swimmer has ever done anything even remotely close to that level of improvement at a comparable age.

    No ,the arguement was that no off spring of montjeu has EVER won the champion hurdle it just doesnt happen

    ---- until someone comes along and does it


  • #215
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....to that extent, at that age?

    Oh yeah. Used to train with this lad. Mid to late twenties, Trained to peak for comp. Set a new WR in a tested fed. Tried the same weight two weeks later and couldn't do it.
    82.5 78.7 Kosmar Lempu Open R 207.5 215 221 0.6505 139.86 1st WR

    The way I see it, some burd who got in and out of a pool a lot took some medication for a cold after the event. Is it possible she wasn't doping? Yes. Is it possible she was competing against athletes who were doping? Maybe.


  • #216
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Shelflife wrote: »
    Ok you are basing improvement in her performance on the fact that she was tested positive long after the improvement.

    There's no guarantee that PEDs will work. It's a mystery to me that people think they're a cure all.

    http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/152196-five-reasons-youre-still-skinny.html


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  • #217
    AngeGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 927 ✭✭✭AngeGal


    Shelflife wrote: »
    AngeGal wrote: »

    No ,the arguement was that no off spring of montjeu has EVER won the champion hurdle it just doesnt happen

    ---- until someone comes along and does it


    It's about the level of improvement at an age when swimmers are declining.

    Your example would be relevant had I said no Irish swimmer has ever won gold, it isn't possible. I didn't so it's not relevant.

    If you want to be pedantic I should have said "isn't possible" rather than "doesn't happen" but that's merely semantics.


  • #218
    Shelflife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    squod wrote: »
    There's no guarantee that PEDs will work. It's a mystery to me that people think they're a cure all.

    http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/152196-five-reasons-youre-still-skinny.html

    No Squod, i was making the point that the fact that you are caught two years after an event does not prove (it may imply) that you were dirty for the event in question.


  • #219
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    In my view she's a drug cheat and an embarrassment to Irish sport.


  • #220
    AngeGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 927 ✭✭✭AngeGal


    mathepac wrote: »
    I hope you have evidence to back that statement up.


    Why would I need evidence? Will you hire Michelle to sue me? Although for her to have a case, she would need to argue that being friends with her is defamatory to someone's reputation, would be an interesting case eh?

    In any event you took my quote out of context and conveniently left out the line "Or at least I hope they are...".

    Your reaction does make me wonder if I hit close to the bone though.


  • #221
    Shelflife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    AngeGal wrote: »
    Shelflife wrote: »


    It's about the level of improvement at an age when swimmers are declining.

    Your example would be relevant had I said no Irish swimmer has ever won gold, it isn't possible. I didn't so it's not relevant.

    If you want to be pedantic I should have said "isn't possible" rather than "doesn't happen" but that's merely semantics.

    I know the point that you are making but saying something "isnt possible" or "doesnt happen" isnt a valid arguement.

    the sub 4m mile "wasnt possible" sub 10sec 100m, landing on the moon/mars etc man flying,crossing the atlantic in a plane.

    all of these things "werent possible" bit now they are, things change improvements are made , she may well have been juiced up but there is no proof to say she actually was.


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  • #222
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The thing about Michelle Smith winning the medals at the Olympics as Jimmy Magee correctly pointed out is that she was nowhere near beating a world record for any of the medals.
    Hardly the stuff of performance enhancing drugs when you think about it.


  • #223
    AngeGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 927 ✭✭✭AngeGal


    Shelflife wrote: »
    AngeGal wrote: »

    I know the point that you are making but saying something "isnt possible" or "doesnt happen" isnt a valid arguement.

    the sub 4m mile "wasnt possible" sub 10sec 100m, landing on the moon/mars etc man flying,crossing the atlantic in a plane.

    all of these things "werent possible" bit now they are, things change improvements are made , she may well have been juiced up but there is no proof to say she actually was.

    My last post on this point. I understand your point aswell and I wouldn't say it isn't possible to cure cancer or anything like that.

    However it is a valid argument when you judging the talent of a person over a period of time and the cirumstances. It's not like she went from being an amateur training two days a week to full time pro. There were no changes which could justify such an unprecedented level of improvement.

    Usain Bolt is the greatest 100m runner that has ever lived but if he suddenly broke 8.5 seconds this summer or if glenn whelan suddenly became better than messi that would be enough for me to reach conclusions. Each to his/her own though.


  • #224
    AngeGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 927 ✭✭✭AngeGal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The thing about Michelle Smith winning the medals at the Olympics as Jimmy Magee correctly pointed out is that she was nowhere near beating a world record for any of the medals.
    Hardly the stuff of performance enhancing drugs when you think about it.

    Well performance enhancing drugs will only do so much. If I take them I ain't gonna qualify for the Olympics never mind set a new world record! I would say her extraordinary level of improvement is more than in line with what could be reasonably expected from taking performance enhancing drugs.


  • #225
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The thing about Michelle Smith winning the medals at the Olympics as Jimmy Magee correctly pointed out is that she was nowhere near beating a world record for any of the medals.
    Hardly the stuff of performance enhancing drugs when you think about it.

    :D

    Think about that though. She was a very talented Irish swimmer, getting to a final would have been an immense achievement. There were no signs of her times or form in her early career, she was an excellent Irish swimmer, obviously not Olympic gold standard.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #226
    Red21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Red21


    mathepac wrote: »

    Tell me where is the specific physical, test results show without doubt that she took drugs in the lead up to or during the Olympics. I have no idea what "supporting evidence" means in this context. Do actual test results exist that confirm doping at the Olympics? If so where are they, who has them and when was the hearing to adjudicate on Michelle's status based on these results held?
    Are these the questions you're on about?
    If so, nobody is saying such test results exist.
    mathepac wrote: »
    That would leave her guilty by association or guilty of poor decision making. So what?
    My post wasn't in relation to weather or not she was guilty, i was saying that no matter what your view is, you have to agree that michelle de bruin decided herself to work with a coach who is banned from all competition, this says alot about the kinda woman she is.

    Can you answer my question i've been asking it since the start of the thread,What training did she do after 92 that she hadn't done before 92 that took you from being a complete outsider(never made the olympic semi-finals on any event) to being able dominate world swimming?


  • #227
    Red21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Red21


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The thing about Michelle Smith winning the medals at the Olympics as Jimmy Magee correctly pointed out is that she was nowhere near beating a world record for any of the medals.
    Hardly the stuff of performance enhancing drugs when you think about it.
    Don't know how Jimmy Magee gets away with this nonsence, she took 20 sec's off her 400m time an event that only takes 4 mins.
    If paul hession had the same improvement he'd be in with a chance to win the 200m.


  • #228
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    AngeGal wrote: »
    Why would I need evidence? Will you hire Michelle to sue me? Although for her to have a case, she would need to argue that being friends with her is defamatory to someone's reputation, would be an interesting case eh?....
    Your implication of friendship between Michelle and I means that my motivations in challenging the assumptions in relation to her case could have a basis other than a quest for natural justice or my deep aversion to those among us who are deeply prejudiced.

    This implication of yours is clearly an attempt at trolling.


  • #229
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Red21 wrote: »
    Don't know how Jimmy Magee gets away with this nonsence, she took 20 sec's off her 400m time an event that only takes 4 mins.
    If paul hession had the same improvement he'd be in with a chance to win the 200m.

    Jimmy is a bit of a romantic when it comes to Irish sport, sure the clown regards Bernard Dunne as a proper World Champion.


  • #230
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    AngeGal wrote: »
    You won't though because it isn't possible, it just doesn't happen.

    That's the mantra from the American girls that she left in her wake. She did have many advantages, technique, suit at the time was revolutionary, provocative and controversial, now they all wear them, training, diet, discipline were all in excess of the 'average' [amateur] athlete at the time too.

    She was a 'professional' and she did take the candy from the babies.


  • #231
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    FullRetard wrote: »
    they are more often bought for inclusion in a libary as opposed to some one buying for a bit of light reading in the jax!!

    For college students I suppose. Practitioners usually buy.


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  • #232
    AngeGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 927 ✭✭✭AngeGal


    gbee wrote: »
    That's the mantra from the American girls that she left in her wake. She did have many advantages, technique, suit at the time was revolutionary, provocative and controversial, now they all wear them, training, diet, discipline were all in excess of the 'average' [amateur] athlete at the time too.

    She was a 'professional' and she did take the candy from the babies.

    Pity she was racing against fellow pros, i'm sure they were chompîng down Mcdonalds and hadn't spent much time perfecting their technique though. Candy from babies??? More like a wallet from someones pocket. Keep drinking the kool-aid though when the rest of us have long since realised it's poisonous.
    mathepac wrote: »
    Your implication of friendship between Michelle and I means that my motivations in challenging the assumptions in relation to her case could have a basis other than a quest for natural justice or my deep aversion to those among us who are deeply prejudiced.

    This implication of yours is clearly an attempt at trolling.

    Get over yourself. My initial post was directed at all those defending her and I added "At least I hope they are..." as that would go someway towards understanding the entirely illogical approach being taken by said defenders. Your response then took my quote of context and rather bizarrely requested evidence almost implying I had gotten myself into trouble could I not provide such evidence.


  • #233
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Red21 wrote: »
    Are these the questions you're on about?
    If so, nobody is saying such test results exist...
    Excellent, they don't exist and the case for demonising her is based purely on prejudice, as I already stated.
    Red21 wrote: »
    ...
    My post wasn't in relation to weather or not she was guilty, i was saying that no matter what your view is, you have to agree that michelle de bruin decided herself to work with a coach who is banned from all competition, this says alot about the kinda woman she is...
    Sure, given their marriage she was very human - a woman in love. So what's your point?
    Red21 wrote: »
    ... Can you answer my question i've been asking it since the start of the thread,What training did she do after 92 that she hadn't done before 92 that took you from being a complete outsider(never made the olympic semi-finals on any event) to being able dominate world swimming?
    Jaysus don't spare the hyperbole. I can't remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday. If I ever knew the answer to your question, it's long forgotten, apart from which I'm not a swimming coach.


  • #234
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    AngeGal wrote: »
    Pity she was racing against fellow pros, i'm sure they were chompîng down Mcdonalds .

    You know, pretty much they were. Were you around and taking an interest at the time?

    If you were, describe some of the coverage Michelle got PRIOR to races. List the complaints lodged against Michelle, what were they and why? What was Michelle's reply?


  • #235
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    AngeGal wrote: »
    ... that would go someway towards understanding the entirely illogical approach being taken by said defenders. ...
    I've asked a number of perfectly reasonable, logical questions of those who seek to demonise Michelle and her Olympic achievements. I have pointed out time and again that Michelle's detractors want to use as evidence of cheating, test results established from samples taken almost two years after the event. I see that as being logical; don't you?


  • #236
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,247 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    I wonder what was the cause of the huge drop-off in swim times, especially women, from 1988 and 1992 to 1996?

    Egerszegyi, 3rd behind de Bruin, swam faster as a 14 year-old in 1988 than she did as a 22 year-old in 1996. Evans was 17 in 1988, when she set a 400m FS record that de Bruin got nowhere near in 1996, despite rapid improvements in swimsuit technology.

    What happened to the rest of the female swimming population that somehow bypassed de Bruin?

    Every Olympics, up to 1996, saw plenty of WRs and ORs in the pool (female program only). There were nine ORs in 1988 and 2 WRs. In 1992, there were 2 WRs and seven ORs.

    In 1996, there was one single Olympic record and no world records.

    Pool technology and suit technology were improving. Why not times?


  • #237
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I wonder what was the cause of the huge drop-off in swim times, especially women, from 1988 and 1992 to 1996?

    Egerszegyi, 3rd behind de Bruin, swam faster as a 14 year-old in 1988 than she did as a 22 year-old in 1996. Evans was 17 in 1988, when she set a 400m FS record that de Bruin got nowhere near in 1996, despite rapid improvements in swimsuit technology.

    What happened to the rest of the female swimming population that somehow bypassed de Bruin?

    Every Olympics, up to 1996, saw plenty of WRs and ORs in the pool (female program only). There were nine ORs in 1988 and 2 WRs. In 1992, there were 2 WRs and seven ORs.

    In 1996, there was one single Olympic record and no world records.

    Pool technology and suit technology were improving. Why not times?

    Not an expert but maybe the break up of the Iron Curtain and better testing?

    Getting back to de Bruin, I think pretending that there was no issues or concerns over her gold medals also does a disservice to Sonia O'Sullivan, some of the athletes who beat her had "issues" over drugs as well.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #238
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,247 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    K-9 wrote: »
    Not an expert but maybe the break up of the Iron Curtain and better testing?

    And better testing would lead to slower times for the likes of Evans because...

    And Michelle de Bruin is the one villified? She was just playing catch-up.


  • #239
    LimGal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 327 ✭✭LimGal


    How does that saying go,something about if you put two men in prison overnight one of them is guilty of a crime the other falsely accused of the same crime.
    The guilty person will sleep soundly and not put up too much of a fuss while the innocent party will be up all night pleading his innocence to anyone who will listen.

    Michelle has made fcuk all racket about her supposed injustice of being branded a drugs cheat and so by my fool-proof theory above she is as guilty as fcuk in my eyes:D

    But all joking aside I do think she is guilty.....didnt one of her urine samples have enough whiskey in it to kill a small horse:eek:and so destroying any evidence of performance enhancing drugs.


  • #240
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    LimGal wrote: »
    ...
    But all joking aside I do think she is guilty.....didnt one of her urine samples have enough whiskey in it to kill a small horse:eek:and so destroying any evidence of performance enhancing drugs.
    Pity you didn't take time to read the thread. The sample you speak of was taken after the Olympics and personally I don't know of any small horses who drink whiskey.

    It's possible that certain posters here have evidence of small horses drinking whiskey and some may even have witnessed events such as this even in the Olympics, but they have no evidence they can produce or point to that Michelle cheated at the Olympic games, thus her medals are still hers and her status as a multiple Olympic champion is unblemished.


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  • #241
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I wonder what was the cause of the huge drop-off in swim times, especially women, from 1988 and 1992 to 1996?

    Egerszegyi, 3rd behind de Bruin, swam faster as a 14 year-old in 1988 than she did as a 22 year-old in 1996. Evans was 17 in 1988, when she set a 400m FS record that de Bruin got nowhere near in 1996, despite rapid improvements in swimsuit technology.

    What happened to the rest of the female swimming population that somehow bypassed de Bruin?

    Every Olympics, up to 1996, saw plenty of WRs and ORs in the pool (female program only). There were nine ORs in 1988 and 2 WRs. In 1992, there were 2 WRs and seven ORs.

    In 1996, there was one single Olympic record and no world records.

    Pool technology and suit technology were improving. Why not times?


    An interesting one. The sport probably matured in 96. Every record since could have been set by ''one offs'' natural athletes or outstanding performers (rather than well trained athletes).

    What's his name who won gold practically had documentaries about him, his short legs and long torso.....Michael Phelps. Theory explained in the S&S sports archives->

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056542841&page=5


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