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Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

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Comments

  • #2882
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    TheBuilder wrote: »
    Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question of wondering, The Celtic Football and Athletic Club won the European Cup not The Celtic Football Club PLC which is the current company, is that not a new company?

    We formed in 1872 and the current company in 1899, yet previous history still stands, so how can it disappear now?

    As I say, I'm not an expert or anything do just wondering about those things.

    Through various subsidiaries clubs would be allowed to retain there history becuase they still belong to the original entity.

    A name change is still similar in that your changing the name of an existing entity not liquidating it and forming another.

    In Rangers' case they will not be allowed to offically consider their history to part part of the newco but they can still show the replica cups and any other history and such associated with Rangers.


  • #2883
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Eli Manning wrote: »
    Through various subsidiaries clubs would be allowed to retain there history becuase they still belong to the original entity.

    A name change is still similar in that your changing the name of an existing entity not liquidating it and forming another.

    In Rangers' case they will not be allowed to offically consider their history to part part of the newco but they can still show the replica cups and any other history and such associated with Rangers.

    Are they not part of the assets ?


  • #2884
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    The difference with Celtic was it was just a name change for the company, the Date of Incorporation for the current Celtic PLC is 12/04/1897. The Celtic Football and Athletic Club still exists, just under a different name. Rangers 2012 would be a completely different company to Rangers 1899.

    I am not sure about the question of history either though. Airdrie Utd and MK Dons didn't keep their history, Leeds Utd did even though Leeds Utd FC Ltd was registered in 2007.

    Leeds were never liquidated. HMRC eventually accepted the CVA.


  • #2885
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Are they not part of the assets ?

    Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.


  • #2886
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Eli Manning wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

    I mean: Aren't all those trophies part of the assets that can be sold off ?


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  • #2887
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    TheBuilder wrote: »
    Before anyone jumps down my throat, this is a genuine question of wondering, The Celtic Football and Athletic Club won the European Cup not The Celtic Football Club PLC which is the current company, is that not a new company?

    We formed in 1872 and the current company in 1899, yet previous history still stands, so how can it disappear now?

    As I say, I'm not an expert or anything do just wondering about those things.

    My understanding is that it all revolves around the company number. You can make a company a PLC without changing the registered company number. This is what pretty much all football clubs would have done in their past.

    However, Newco Rangers would have a brand new company number, the old number would be liquidated with the old company.


  • #2888
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    I mean: Aren't all those trophies part of the assets that can be sold off ?

    Yeah, you're 100% correct there.


  • #2889
    d.anthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭d.anthony


    PauloMN wrote: »
    My understanding is that it all revolves around the company number. You can make a company a PLC without changing the registered company number. This is what pretty much all football clubs would have done in their past.

    However, Newco Rangers would have a brand new company number, the old number would be liquidated with the old company.

    2q2few0.png


  • #2890
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,892 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    In the same way as Cork and Derry here, Rangers fans will claim to have the same club and history as they always did. The rest of the world will know though.

    Is there no hope of Rangers pulling something out of the bag before its too late?


  • #2891
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,748 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    I doubt it, the way Green and D&P have gone about the whole CVA business was gung ho as if their plan all along was to go down the liquidation route.

    Talk about a warchest of spending next season whilst offering creditors 8%-9% of what they are owed did not help the CVA route


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  • #2892
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,892 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?


  • #2893
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    D&P/Green are saying that the players have to join the newco or they'll be in breach of contract. The players union is saying that the players are under no obligation to join a newco as stated in the protection of employment regulations. They really do like stumbling from one problem to the next.

    A new company buying trophies doesnt mean that the new company won them!


  • #2894
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    CSF wrote: »
    Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

    Which is why a Newco that is allowed into the SPL will be saddled with big point penalties, possible financial penalties,...

    Good to see the Celtic fans on here towing the party line.
    Technically a Newco will start from 0 with titles, but if a club plays at Ibrox in blue, called Rangers and still draws the same fans nobody will care.

    Apart from one group of people, that is.


  • #2895
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    CSF wrote: »
    Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

    No, the punishments for a newco entering the SPL will be decided by the other clubs.


  • #2896
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,748 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    CSF wrote: »
    Am I right in saying that if Rangers pack up and start again tomorrow and get in to the SPL, that they almost immediately become a real force in the title race based on the amount of income they can generate from having a larger fanbase than any of the other 10 sides in the league?

    You are right if the SPL let them in with no punishment. It is a cheaters charter if that happens


  • #2897
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Which is why a Newco that is allowed into the SPL will be saddled with big point penalties, possible financial penalties,...

    Good to see the Celtic fans on here towing the party line.
    Technically a Newco will start from 0 with titles, but if a club plays at Ibrox in blue, called Rangers and still draws the same fans nobody will care.

    Apart from one group of people, that is.

    You are deluded


  • #2898
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,892 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    Dempsey wrote: »
    No, the punishments for a newco entering the SPL will be decided by the other clubs.

    Surely any points deductions will only hurt the club in their first season back though? It seems like all of this will only affect Rangers for a very short time.


  • #2899
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Dempsey wrote: »
    You are deluded

    So far I've only heard this whole 'trophies taken away' bollocks from one set of fans, and that's you lot.

    So perhaps you could wait until this liquidation process is over and we know what happens, instead of writing your biggest wishes down and stating them as facts.

    CSF: One of the possible punishments mentioned was using a system of using the points total of the previous season as a focal point of a points deduction.

    For example, if Rangers get a 15 point deduction next season (in a hypothetical scenario where a Newco is voted back in the SPL) and manage to get 70-80 points in the coming season (which is a possibility).

    That punishment would then mean that (provided they set a clear rule for it, which I doubt given the history of the SPL) of those 70-80 points a certain percentage (I've heard it mention 20%) would then be used to determine the points deduction for season after that, meaning Rangers could end up with a point deduction that would be massive.

    But that's all speculation, the SPL to this date have failed to clearly state what will happen.

    But I highly doubt Rangers would get away with it on a relative short period of time.


  • #2900
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    CSF wrote: »
    Surely any points deductions will only hurt the club in their first season back though? It seems like all of this will only affect Rangers for a very short time.

    The punishment wont be just for one season, i can guarantee you that


  • #2901
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    So far I've only heard this whole 'trophies taken away' bollocks from one set of fans, and that's you lot.

    So perhaps you could wait until this liquidation process is over and we know what happens, instead of writing your biggest wishes down and stating them as facts.

    I'm sure you have read all the fans forums! :rolleyes:

    A new company buying trophies of another doesnt mean that the new company won them.

    Again I'll say it, I dont care if Rangers is liquidated or not. I just want Rangers punished for over a decade of cheating.
    But that's all speculation, the SPL to this date have failed to clearly state what will happen.

    SPL clubs decide the punishment on a case by case basis


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  • #2902
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Dempsey wrote: »
    I'm sure you have read all the fans forums! :rolleyes:

    A new company buying trophies of another doesnt mean that the new company won them.

    Again I'll say it, I dont care if Rangers is liquidated or not. I just want Rangers punished for over a decade of cheating.

    Companies don't win trophies, but hey, if you say so... :rolleyes:


  • #2903
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Companies don't win trophies, but hey, if you say so... :rolleyes:

    What are you babbling about? Newco Rangers will be buying assets from Rangers and they will buy the trophy cabinet but only fools will believe that the newco won them and rangers lives on.


  • #2904
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,892 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    Dempsey wrote: »
    CSF wrote: »
    Surely any points deductions will only hurt the club in their first season back though? It seems like all of this will only affect Rangers for a very short time.

    The punishment wont be just for one season, i can guarantee you that
    How can you guarantee me that?


  • #2905
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    CSF wrote: »
    How can you guarantee me that?

    Because the clubs didnt want to be restricted to a set of punishments over a 3 year period. If they didnt think 3 years of punishment would be enough in certain cases, what makes you think all the clubs would agree to just 1?


  • #2906
    lubo_moravcik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭lubo_moravcik


    more timmy lies here
    http://videocelts.com/2012/06/blogs/hmrc-liquidators-to-kill-off-grees-newco-plan





    Binder Dijker Otte, best known as BDO, have warned Charles Green that his newco plan is a non-runner.

    Green’s plan for a £5.5m asset sale of Rangers into a new club has attracted criticism and concern with the Ibrox club having assets of £50m plus in terms of property and players.

    HMRC announced today that they will not be accepting Green’s CVA proposal and that they will be appointing BDO to liquidate the company.

    Green’s plans for a quick asset transfer to present a newco option to the SPL are now in tatters with BDO issuing clear instructions that their task is to maximise the return to the creditors from the club assets.

    BDO partners Malcolm Cohen and James Stephen will be appointed joint-liquidators to the old company, although no timescale for when this will happen has been made available.

    Cohen said: “Once BDO is formally appointed, the joint liquidators will be seeking to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors, and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company.

    “It is right that there is a full and robust investigation into why the company failed, together with concerted efforts to recover monies for creditors and the taxpayer.

    “This may include pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the financial affairs of the company in previous years.”

    If a newco can be salvaged from the demise of Rangers it’s unlikely that they will be in a condition to apply to the SPL for membership with the liquidation of the club likely to lead to a number of legal battles.

    It’s unlikely that the SFA would transfer any punishments such as a transfer embargo to a newco since as the name suggests it will be a new legal entity.

    With Rangers going into liquidation their players will become free agents although their registration reverts to the SFA rather than a member club


  • #2907
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    So far I've only heard this whole 'trophies taken away' bollocks from one set of fans, and that's you lot.

    You should read the Aberdeen forums if you think we give you a hard time!!! :pac:


  • #2908
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Dempsey wrote: »
    What are you babbling about? Newco Rangers will be buying assets from Rangers and they will buy the trophy cabinet but only fools will believe that the newco won them and rangers lives on.

    Only fools believe that a company wins trophies.

    Tell it to Fiorentina, Middlesbrough, Charlton,... that their trophies don't count anymore.


  • #2909
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Companies don't win trophies, but hey, if you say so... :rolleyes:

    Assets transferred from a liquidated company to a brand new one are tangible. You can have all the replica cups in the world, in the biggest trophy room ever, but they won't be yours in reality.

    You can't have your cake and eat it. If you need to apply for entry to the SPL or a lower league, it's because it ain't Rangers FC anymore - it's a new club. A new club starting from scratch with no history.

    Leave behind all the debts but keep the history intact? :D Don't think so.


  • #2910
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    PauloMN wrote: »
    Assets transferred from a liquidated company to a brand new one are tangible. You can have all the replica cups in the world, in the biggest trophy room ever, but they won't be yours in reality.

    You can't have your cake and eat it. If you need to apply for entry to the SPL or a lower league, it's because it ain't Rangers FC anymore - it's a new club. A new club starting from scratch with no history.

    Leave behind all the debts but keep the history intact? :D Don't think so.

    So you're saying a Newco should also not be punished what so ever for any wrong doings of the Oldco ?

    Or wait, did you want that cake and eat it ? ;)


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  • #2911
    Dempsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,529 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Only fools believe that a company wins trophies.

    Tell it to Fiorentina, Middlesbrough, Charlton,... that their trophies don't count anymore.

    Dont forget that Juve are claiming 2 stripped titles as theirs aswell.


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