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Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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  • #62
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    There is good to be gained for all parties from the proposals, and rather than just blindly stonewalling them we should be open to consider a compromise that will keep everyone happy and competitive
    Why should budging in with a lists of demands yield a compromise? It shouldn't. If a proposal is viable then it would be taken on, with all interests catered for. If it isn't, it would be rebuked and rightly so.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The purpose of the competition is to grow the profile of the sport. In every country in Europe. Equally as important in England as it is in Ireland, France Italy or Luxembourg
    The last item on their agenda would be the profile of the sport in Europe.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Why should Premiership Rugby Ltd. or LNR continue to allow their brand be devalued by losses to teams like Connacht and Treviso who are targeting their teams thanks to their ability to completely disregard the competition that makes up the majority of their season?
    They can go their own way if they want. Their clubs would lose out on union and govt grant revenue as they would not be taking part in functioning competition run by the sport's governing body in that country. Then the sport in those countries is not only divided but one half of it entirely in the hands of private-owners via franchises a la IPL cricket. Hardly solid foundations with the good of the game in mind. More like sand-based.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I think what's most ironic is that if someone came in spouting conspiracy theories about the IRFU, you'd be the first to laugh them off! . . . etc
    Far from a conspiracy theory.


  • #63
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    I've said it before it would probably be more beneficial for Scotland and Italy just to pull out of the Rabo then lose there places in the HEC

    Or perhaps having a competitive competition that rewards their teams' performance and growth, at a level they can actually compete at, might just cure the attendance problems that automatic Heineken Cup qualification hasn't?

    The Rabo has done a lot more for Treviso than automatic Heineken Cup qualification ever did.


  • #64
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Klunk_NZ wrote: »
    So basically, England and France want more teams in the comp instead of Italian and Scottish teams?

    Actually, according to a quote on espnscrum Mark McCafferty is looking at reducing the Heiniken Cup from 24 to 20 teams (6+6+6+1+1) and using the Amlin Challenge Cup to cater for the remaining teams. It remains to be seen if that would make the English teams any more competitive but a bigger share of the TV money based on market size is undoubtably at the centre of this too. Loss of revenue will effect the IRFU considerably.

    We dont really know for sure what they are looking for yet though.
    Harlequins lost to Connacht partly because Connacht were able to rest players for that game while Harlequins were not.

    I would content that Connacht decided to rest players, Quins decided not to.


  • #65
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    pajunior wrote: »
    Possibly but for most teams it has to do with beating the pro12 teams.
    Harlequins lost to Connacht partly because Connacht were able to rest players for that game while Harlequins were not.
    Similarly the second worst team in the pro12 beat the best team in France because of the same reason.

    Some would argue that the English/French teams should be building bigger squads to deal with the two competitions. Personally I disagree, Edinburgh should not be in the HC next year.
    I'm intrigued. The week before Quins were in Galway, Connacht were over in Toulouse. There were two changes in the starting 15, McSharry was injured and Loughney came into the front row, returning from injury. Week before that was Leinster in the Sportsground, again any changes to the starters were purely based on injuries (Tuohy breaking his leg, having to shove Naoupu into the second row for an injured Swift).

    Perhaps you're getting confused with the Bradley era where Connacht would change half a team week-in, week-out when games were being "targetted".


  • #66
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I don't know about Connacht, I don't think they're resting players half as much as they used to.

    Edit: As Robbo says

    Although to say English/French teams are making the decision not to rest players is just naive. You're ignoring the reason they don't, and that reason is the whole problem in the first place! Haha


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  • #67
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    I've said it before it would probably be more beneficial for Scotland and Italy just to pull out of the Rabo then lose there places in the HEC
    What would their two teams do in between their 6 HEC games per year?


  • #68
    justsomebloke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The Rabo has done a lot more for Treviso than automatic Heineken Cup qualification ever did.

    except bring in the same amount of money and with one Italian club already gone to the wall, money is all they will care about

    If they were to pull out I could just see them arranging strategically placed friendlies to get keep them at a certain level and getting match practice for the HEC games.


  • #69
    justsomebloke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    What would their two teams do in between their 6 HEC games per year?

    the same thing the Irish provinces did before the rabo, very little. Irish provinces were still making Finals before the rabo came along so it wouldn't be too much different then that.


  • #70
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    What would their two teams do in between their 6 HEC games per year?

    the same thing the Irish provinces did before the rabo, very little. Irish provinces were still making Finals before the rabo came along so it wouldn't be too much different then that.
    Except Irish provinces were based on a very strong spine of centrally contracted players whose international career suffered from a move abroad. An incomparable situation.

    Italian players would disappear back off to France.


  • #71
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    the same thing the Irish provinces did before the rabo, very little. Irish provinces were still making Finals before the rabo came along so it wouldn't be too much different then that.
    So rather than playing in a professional league, the Italian and Scottish players should hack around at local clubs before meeting up a few times a year for their HEC thrashings with their provincial sides?

    I really don't see that benefiting them.


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  • #72
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    the same thing the Irish provinces did before the rabo, very little. Irish provinces were still making Finals before the rabo came along so it wouldn't be too much different then that.
    During a time when professionalism in union was in its infancy, that was all very well and good, particularly with a large proportion of players still part-time.
    The first thing that would happen in the absence of a professional league to play in, would be a flight of players to other leagues in order to make a living from playing. So the primary effect of a black hole in revenue is a decrease in the number of top-level full-time professional players and a lack of high-profile players playing at home.
    Now that the sport is played by well-paid players, the comparison with a 1999 ERC win (in a year minus the English teams) or final the next year is a tad off-kilter these days, I'd say.


  • #73
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    efb wrote: »
    England need to do a Wales, suck it up and go with regions

    Why hasn't exactly been a roaring success in Wales


  • #74
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Why hasn't exactly been a roaring success in Wales

    It actually saved Welsh professional rugby union from going bust. David Moffatt made a lot of valuable changes when in charge there.


  • #75
    justsomebloke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    So rather than playing in a professional league, the Italian and Scottish players should hack around at local clubs before meeting up a few times a year for their HEC thrashings with their provincial sides?

    I really don't see that benefiting them.

    unfortunately a financially viable team is better then competitively viable team as it gives you the extra time to build a better team especially when you have seen one team already gone to the wall.


  • #76
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Whats the financial rewards of the HEC cup for teams?


  • #77
    Otacon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Whats the financial rewards of the HEC cup for teams?

    I would assume its similar to the Champions League, in that most of the monetary reward comes from added stadium revenue for big European games and increased advertising.


  • #78
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Whats the financial rewards of the HEC cup for teams?
    A pittance in comparison to the 6 Nation's tv money, as the IRFU pointed out last year!


  • #79
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    unfortunately a financially viable team is better then competitively viable team as it gives you the extra time to build a better team especially when you have seen one team already gone to the wall.
    A Scottish or Italian team outside the RABO league will never be competitive - not by a country mile (unless they are in one of the other top leagues).


  • #80
    kevohmsford
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,317 ✭✭✭kevohmsford


    Do they want to start their own competition between French and English teams. Sounds like sour grapes from the English clubs. They are losing so many players though to French clubs.


  • #81
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Otacon wrote: »
    I would assume its similar to the Champions League, in that most of the monetary reward comes from added stadium revenue for big European games and increased advertising.


    Any idea of the breakdown of that?


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  • #82
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    JustinDee wrote: »
    It actually saved Welsh professional rugby union from going bust. David Moffatt made a lot of valuable changes when in charge there.

    True but English rugby isn't endanger of going bust


  • #83
    Otacon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Any idea of the breakdown of that?

    No idea. Purely based on guesstimation on my part.


  • #84
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Any idea of the breakdown of that?

    Some of the basics are here:
    http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php


  • #85
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    True but English rugby isn't endanger of going bust

    Actually alot of their clubs are running at a loss, about 75% off the top of my head.


  • #86
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    True but English rugby isn't endanger of going bust

    How's life for Sale, Newcastle, Wasps or Worcester?


  • #87
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,651 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I suppose it's easy from the current irish situation, but I really don't have a problem with a straight qualification from the Rabo. Maybe the compromise should be at least one qualifier from the member nations?

    However, the real issue is nothing to do with qualification, and more to do with the more hidden agenda of splitting the HEC money 3 ways, rather than 6. Maybe the bluff that should be called is that it's purely about competitive qualification...


  • #88
    artvandelay48
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 562 ✭✭✭artvandelay48


    justsomebloke wrote: »
    the same thing the Irish provinces did before the rabo, very little. Irish provinces were still making Finals before the rabo came along so it wouldn't be too much different then that.

    Really? Do tell...


  • #89
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    artvandelay48 wrote: »
    justsomebloke wrote: »
    the same thing the Irish provinces did before the rabo, very little. Irish provinces were still making Finals before the rabo came along so it wouldn't be too much different then that.

    Really? Do tell...
    Irish teams made finals in 99, 00 and 02


  • #90
    OldRio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭OldRio


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    True but English rugby isn't endanger of going bust

    I think the English game is in serious financial trouble.
    Many clubs making a loss. Clubs not owning their own grounds.
    English players leaving to France.
    The farce of promotion and relegation.
    If Newcastle do get relegated (straight after that weekend they signed a good number of players) only one team, Sale, would be representing the north of England.
    Its not about the good of the game its about Money and money and even more money.


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  • #91
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Here is what the English clubs are looking for:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9298558/English-Premiership-clubs-open-rift-with-Celtic-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html
    OldRio wrote: »
    Many clubs making a loss. Clubs not owning their own grounds..

    All of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht would make a loss if it weren't for the IRFU.

    Most French clubs don't own or have to pay for their grounds (only rent). That puts them at an advantage certainly?


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