Spiderman

Lemming wrote: »

/sigh

We've had quite a few moderator changes over the years on the airsoft forums, and the same accusation always exists. QED it's not the moderators that are the problem, but the community - or parts therein - itself.

Seriously, the biggest problem on any internet forum is ego: "Who the f*ck does he think I am?", "Doesn't he know who I am?!!", "Why can't he tell I'm joking, he should get a f*cking clue/sense of humour/whatever", "Nobody tells me what to do", "This is not a fascist dictatorship, I can say what I want", etc. etc. etc. The above applies to every forum, ever.

I'm not buying that one Lem sorry,

The same issues have been levelled again and again and again and not from the same group either, the threads are still very much available through the search function and the main points being brought up every time are from pretty much every sector.

Considering we have gone through numerous mod changes and the same issues persist, it would indicate to me that there is a fundamental flaw in the moderation process of election. Considering moderators nominate candidates it stands to reason that if there is an issue rooted in a moderation group, by them bringing in people they see fit, they will most likely be the same type of individual with the same thought process and personality, therefore pro longing the problem.

And there is no denying that the last few mod cycles have been mates bringing in mates, I don't care how anyone wants to break down the mod process (although I know from other forums how it works) and when new moderators coming into play are being brought in as the current form, it just disrespects the whole moderation process.

I also wouldn't agree that the mods are horrible people, they are just getting alot of push back because of the various poor and in equal treatment segments of the community receive.

At this point I can literally tell when I'm going to get a ban/warning and infraction, and if I do get one, its knowingly, and its because the point is worth making. And typically because I know it will further, is most cases, highlight the inequal moderation various groups receive on this forum.

Lemming wrote: »

The same charge of mates volunteering mates can be levelled at users too, with concerted and consistent behaviour levelled against mods on nothing other than bruised ego or personal grudges brought in from outside these forums.

So where does corrective action start?

That's wildly inaccurate. And considering that typically in the past feedback threads on moderation has come from the likes of myself, and the mates you refer, we have gone through every channel appropriate within the boards.ie structure when appropriate and every single time it was resulted in absolutely nothing happening, just fluff replies that " it will be looked into" as if we are twelve years old and that we buy that crap.

The problem is people think there are grudges or egos involved. I've particularly not a care in the world for the moderators as people, where they play, what they eat or what music they listen to, I've genuinely no interest. The interest goes as far as how the forum is moderated and at the best of times its inept.

Its also, in my view, just site wide aswell. I just notice that moderation on this website attracts a certain type of person, and its typically just the wrong kind for moderation. I'm not going into how to properly moderate, but suffice to say its also a site wide problem, so maybe our moderators are working off a very poor set of guidelines, which is totally plausible.

Case in point. I give feedback- it gets snipped.

Here we go again. A certain mod, if you look at his recent mod posts, has banned more users then I've had hot dinners, and for what?! I noticed one poor lad bumped his thread 21 hours after his post and he got banned for a 3 hour time gap. 3 HOURS! Honestly.

Here's my next problem.
OP states:

If you want to discuss stuff like adults then, *big surprise*, we'll listen .

I make a post, like an adult, and it gets snipped by the mod team. Lets have a discussion! Oh, that user has said something that I as a mod disagree with, better remove it! Gimme a break.

It's far too authoritarian around here and has been for a long time. The party line seems to be all discussions will run smoothly or not at all, which is ludicrous, because any discussion worth having will not run smoothly. Arguments aren't even a problem in the first place, it is part and parcel of the reality of differing opinions. If you stifle discussion because there will be arguments it is censorship, if you view arguments as something that must be avoided at all costs you will never have true discussion, and you will never have a forum that is worthwhile.

I've replied to so many of these threads, several orchestrated by you Steve, and always along the same lines. Grown men have zero motivation to be treated like children, they don't tolerate it IRL and they wont tolerate it here, and arguments and so on are not the end of the world, they are how progress is made, and using moderator tools should be a last resort, it is a lopsided power to stifle the ability of another to express themselves and is taken too lightly here, not least of which weighing in with warnings is taken too lightly too, it is an active threat, not a passive action.

Imagine I had a tool via which I could ban the mods, shut them down and shut them up permanently, and then I bold texted I don't like this, banned. It is an awful thing to do, even wading in with bold text warnings is a way to tell people that this isn't a place where hobbyists are all equal and free to engage each other, it is a place where a slip up will cost you a ban and the embarrassment of being treated like a child.

tl;dr the moderation is too heavy handed, the degradation of this forum went linearly with the loss of good posters due to their lack of interest in being treated like spas.

Southern Dandy wrote: »

The vast majority of people on this forum get on fine here, without any hassle from the mods and for the simple reason that they adhere to the rules of this forum. And yes it is the vast majority.

I adhere to the rules also. I'm typically subject to "moderation interpretation2 which is a mod identifying things off topic or back seat modding. And a fair amount of the time incorrectly. We dont have serious breaches of rules around here. What we have is moderators interjecting when they are not needed. I applaud the proactiveness, but not when its destructive.

The new mods in question are not here because a friend got them this position, they are here because the have been members of this forum for quite some time, they know the run of this place. They are sticking to the guidelines that are set out for them and to be honest I have zero issue with them.

typically a shortlist is created for candidates for mods. This is created by mods. Its then passed onto the upper ranks and fed back down with comments and cuts, typically people with too much previous activity in the sense of bans etc.

So in a roundabout way, yes, they are here because they are mods mates(although I dunno bout Deburca tbh). And they are relatively new to the forum going by their account stats, when compared against some others.

Lemming hit it on the head I think with the "ego" of some people and it is always the same people (well for the most part) who pop up, getting a rise out of slating the mods when any bit of controversy arises. Personal vendettas always play a part in it and this is from a completely outside perspective. I have been on this forum probably 1-2 years on and off and the difference in that short space of time it is just astounding with regards peoples attitudes.

I'm one of the people most commonly associated with "anti mod behaviour" simply put, as Addict said, I don't like being treated as a child. I also don't like having my account consistently tarnished with infractions and warnings that are completely incorrect and un warranted. Shock horror, I post on other forums here, long before airsoft was even on this site. And I've missed the mod list for so many forums around here, thanks to unwarranted and rubbish warnings, infractions and bans.

What is the bloody point of you being here if you don't want play by the rules? Do ye have this same attitude with your boss at work if he does something that you do not like?

Again, rules arnt being broken, its inept interpretations of a moderators intervention. If I go being racist in work or injecting heroin, yeah sure, I'm fired. But if my boss keeps intervening in my work where its no required, and when they are incorrect, or to the best of times mis understanding the situation, there is a process I go through to have that matter resolved.

I talk to my boss directly and outline the problem.
I can then speak to my department head, or finally HR. The same sort of thing is here in boards, except when you go up the line, you just get the wagons drawn in, and everyone are defensive children. No one wants to just sit down, find the problem, then action on it.

Of course it is easy to say the mods are trigger happy with dealing out infractions and bans when you push and push the boundaries with what is deemed acceptable behavior on the airsoft forum. This is not "After hours" where anything goes.

Boundaries arnt being pushed, but are utterly grey and transparent considering the unequal treatment of one poster to another, aswell as the most often then not misunderstood, heavy handed and un required moderation.

Moderator intervention
1) Extreme personal abuse to another poster
2) Potentially libellous or criminal undertoned posts
3) Any boards.ie local rules

And thats it, everything outside of that is simply dealing with reported posts.

A mod doesn't decided what's off topic, through people reporting posts in numbers as " Off topic" then we know its off topic. The user and posters dictate the threads and the direction of a conversation, not the moderators, you enforce the rules, not the direction of chatter flow.

Example 1

Gerrowadat banned for a month for what was perceived as trolling. For a second I'll forget it was just a mod waiting to ban him, but we will look at it subjectively, to outline how the issue could have been dealt with better.

Gerrowadat responds " FTPFY" a well known internet reference to " I fixed that for you", most noticeably posted in forums around the world, and in our own soccer forum. I would have gathered that a website that still references " Wil Wheatons Dick reference" and still thinks its funny, would get this.

What happened
A) Moderator interjects and provides a ban for 1 month based on previous transgression. I'm going to make the assumption no one reported that post, cause no one is that ****ing stupid to not get the joke. So this would be an unnecessary moderation intervention.
In the event the post was reported by the OP, it still does not warrant a ban, as one person reporting a post, isn't conclusive. If 50 people reported the post as offensive, I see the point ( bar the fact there is 50 gob ****es posting).

The outcome? More threads, more disputes and more feedback to inevitably fall on deaf ears.....

What should have happened?
I'm going to assume for this part that the mod just didnt understand what happened.

So fire a PM,
"Hi Gerrowadat,
Sorry I dont understand the reference, can you outline it to me, it looks a bit sarcy to the OP"

Issue explained, take it from there.

Or an alternative?

"Hi Gerrowadat,
To be honest that is a bit sarcy and I dont want the thread erupting up into a row, do you mind elaborating the point or alternatively just remove the post?"

Youd be shocked hos responsive people will be. Dogwatch fired me a PM asking me to change or remove something, cant remember. But he outlined the post, what he wanted removed and the reasons why. I obliged and there was no problem.

It was good moderation, posters see I made the edit, and we move on.


The above, simply using your PM's and using your noodle before applying infractions, warnings and bans is something I mentioned when The Master was on the loose, so we are talking nearly three years. And I've mentioned it every single feedback thread, as have others.

And when has it happened, sweet **** all....

Example 2
My most recent warning for what was deemed off topic and back seat moding. I will admit I didnt understand why it was OT since it was related, and there was no backseat modding. In confusion I had some friends take a look, who are mods on the gaming forum, sports etc. and they concured. So I humed and haughed and just said I'd forget about it

But on reflection

What happened?
I cant remember the specifics, the paragraph was cut, but it was essentially pointing out that the above ban was a bit harsh, explained the reference, and then essentially made the point out in my long post. I think that was it, it got snipped : /

I then got a warning, no big deal, but yet another mark on my account history.

What should have happened?
PM
"Hi Doc,
I don't really want previous mod decisions or bans being brought into the discussion. I've reviewed your post, and while the majority is fine and ok, can you just remove the first paragraph, I feel its taking away from the topic and we don't want the mods decisions openly challenged, the Dispute forum is for that"

Might I contest back with the mod? I probably would, but what I would do, for the short term, is remove the paragraph until we concluded proceedings over PM.

Its about treating people with respect and as adults, there is no need for the animosity. But when as originally stated respect and work goes both ways, and there needs to be some work together. And I guess the above might simply be my mod style, but if I was able to send PM's and resolve disputes on forums which traffic in a day was more then boards sitewide gets in a week, I see absolutely no reason why it cannot be done on a sub forum here.

TheDoc wrote: »

I adhere to the rules also. I'm typically subject to "moderation interpretation2 which is a mod identifying things off topic or back seat modding. And a fair amount of the time incorrectly. We dont have serious breaches of rules around here. What we have is moderators interjecting when they are not needed. I applaud the proactiveness, but not when its destructive.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm referring to breaches on airsoft adverts and on some instances pointless posts that do nothing but causing a stir, good example being an individual using a meme saying "death to" so and so. Debates get heated on this forum even before mod intervention. I am not pointing the finger at you so your own personal dilemma with mods is something I can't comment on.

TheDoc wrote: »

typically a shortlist is created for candidates for mods. This is created by mods. Its then passed onto the upper ranks and fed back down with comments and cuts, typically people with too much previous activity in the sense of bans etc.

So in a roundabout way, yes, they are here because they are mods mates(although I dunno bout Deburca tbh). And they are relatively new to the forum going by their account stats, when compared against some others.

I really do not think its a friend thing, they might have some relationship outside of this but I cant see this being true. They get selected probably as they fit the criteria, just my opinion really. You have been in this game longer than me but I'm looking at this from my logical sense.

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm one of the people most commonly associated with "anti mod behaviour" simply put, as Addict said, I don't like being treated as a child. I also don't like having my account consistently tarnished with infractions and warnings that are completely incorrect and un warranted. Shock horror, I post on other forums here, long before airsoft was even on this site. And I've missed the mod list for so many forums around here, thanks to unwarranted and rubbish warnings, infractions and bans.

You may feel that these are unwarranted and you could very well be right, but if mods deem this warranted and infract you because you may have said/done something then hey might have reason and hopefully it is down to the "rules" and not just because they don't get on with you., but having said that if a mod is being harsh on you for the simple reason he has in for you for what ever reason then I can understand where you are coming from.

TheDoc wrote: »

Again, rules arnt being broken, its inept interpretations of a moderators intervention. If I go being racist in work or injecting heroin, yeah sure, I'm fired. But if my boss keeps intervening in my work where its no required, and when they are incorrect, or to the best of times mis understanding the situation, there is a process I go through to have that matter resolved.

I talk to my boss directly and outline the problem.
I can then speak to my department head, or finally HR. The same sort of thing is here in boards, except when you go up the line, you just get the wagons drawn in, and everyone are defensive children. No one wants to just sit down, find the problem, then action on it.

The point I made here was mods being of an authoritative position some people don't respond well to being told what to do and like you if I had a problem with my boss I would go higher. Has this mod-ing been reported to admins or who ever it is that is in charge if you feel that you are being improperly treated ?

TheDoc wrote: »

Boundaries arnt being pushed, but are utterly grey and transparent considering the unequal treatment of one poster to another, aswell as the most often then not misunderstood, heavy handed and un required moderation.

Moderator intervention
1) Extreme personal abuse to another poster
2) Potentially libellous or criminal undertoned posts
3) Any boards.ie local rules

This is what I meant at the beginning of my post with my thoughts on breaching rules etc.:)


I'm basing my assumptions from personal experience with mods here just like you, and all's good my end never had any issues with them that does not seem the case on your end . All it takes sadly, is one comment to start uproar, then this escalates to something more serious, all this started somewhere and I doubt it will be resolved on both ends for the shear reason that it has now gone too far and boarder line personal for some be it mod or member.

I really do hope this ends, for the sake of airsoft boards, yeah sure everyone loves a bit of drama and a debate for want of better word's including myself but it sadly we are stuck in a rut.

On a side not that was one long ass response you wrote

Why does everyone assume, when someone points out their views which arnt streamlined, or has issues with the hierarchy governing the forum, its viewed as egotistical and the likes.

Its the same with the "elitist" thing people used for so long.

Its a gross misuse of the word and simply aims to try belittle the views of those providing genuine honest feedback, from having vast experience on this forum and others.

There is nothing egotistical about it

If there was to be an accurate description of ego, it would be the years upon years that feedback and issues that have been raised, have been ignored.

So seriously, drop the ego talk, your all using it wrong, and trying to belittle the posts of those in opposition.

But thats my point, its not an ego, its based of experience. And the poster you refered too had numerous feedback threads created, and discussions with admins and cmods which again fell on deaf ears and was again very much appearing to be unequal treatment and favouritism. It possibly wasn't, but what matters is how its perceived.

And there appears to alot of narrow minded short sighted decisions made that will inevitably cause suspicion and for good reason.

@Southern Daddy : It very much is friends nominating friends, or those of a certain group. No point beating around the bush about it. There has been countless opportunities for the mod team to make the right choice and install members that the community respect, are impartial, or even bringing someone in that might be contraversial, but can do the job and will provide some balance.

Every new moderation announcement raises more eyebrows and detracts ever more so from the position, removing respect from it. And for many its probably oblivious, many people, maybe outside of Dublin, dont know that three of our mod team are pals, and play on the same site and have done for some time. While that in itself is not an issue, it cannot be ignored to be a clique in itself, and what also cannot be ignored is the very destructive nature and tendancies of that sites old owner, who many could and perhaps do believe, our moderation team are influenced by.

And when that associate blatantly started posting about another site "stealing" his quad or something, there was no infractions or bans, I think the posts were just deleted. So you can see how its easily perceived that some receive different treatment. And at the end of the day its only human nature in fairness, help out a mate. But when its becoming so obvious that its impairing judgement, causing fractures and a mass exodus of posters, that person should be big enough to step away due to clashing interests, or those above should be proactive enough to intervene

So I still think its wrong to label it as having an ego, when its anything but. And it does, even if not intended, detract from the points being made. By labbeling someone as egotistical that brands them as unwilling to obtain assistance, listen to other views or accept constructive feedback, which in turn could be labbeled against the moderation team aswell as posters.

But ego is not the word to be used, at all, and I'd like it to stop as its a gross mis use of the word and has a negative effect, as did elitist in threads gone past.

War Machine 539 wrote: »

The thing that has been pissing me rightly off is the smart arse posts added onto the end of the ban. Its unnecessary. ... Even reading it on someone elses post is infuriating. Its childlike. And a mod has the temerity to ask us to behave like men?

Agreed.

If you step up as a mod in the best interests of 'the community' then should you really need to get a kick out of putting the boot in?

90% (to put a guesstimate on it) of the posters I know and respect from my time here on boards since 2009 have all disappeared. It's not natural attrition, it's deterioration of the community that boards was when I joined (though I'm sure there are those who would say that it was better in 07, 08 ... whenever).

I post here the odd time or when I want to sell something. Most of those old users now only come on here to sell kit. Shame.

horgan_p wrote: »

Mystery to me why someone like Puding wasn't asked to do it.

Prolific poster , excellant tech. knowledge and more or less gets on with everyone.

Because he's not in the clique that has been here since 07-08 as has been pointed out. It's the root cause of what has this forum the way it is since it started going to pot since early 09 and never recovered. It got little highs now and again but now it's 6 feet under.

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Because to most users mods are faceless. Why not put the boot in?




Sarcasm or not, if anyone can prove to me that that was not said to make Gerrowadat feel like a thick, I will eat their shoes.

I and every other user have seen month long bans handed out for less.

On a related note, anyone ever see friends of the mods getting infracted? Food for thought.

Lets not turn this too much into a witchunt.

We have an opportunity here ( granted, another one, where probably nothing will happen) to air our views and have a civilised discussion.

There needs to be some credit for allowing this to run, lets be frank, there is probably itchy fingers wanting to close it. So while there is a genuine point of the moderation selection process, I think we need to realise that its a boards.ie policy and not the mods here.

And I guess what we really need to instill some confidence, is a moderation appointment that wont raise eyebrows and cause suspicion. Granted since two new mods just got appointed I doubt this will happen.

Unless kdouglas is being replaced, and the mods have an ideal opportunity to make a statement.

I'd like for some moderator input, perhaps they have been sitting by with instructions to let us have a chat, but some input from them would be cool. And hopefully others will respect their thoughts and not turn it into a flame war,

And me saying that is a serious ****ing thing, I'll be the first onto someone for spouting bollox

Maybe it's because I haven't posted much in comparison to other users, but I've never had an issue with the moderation on this forum. That said, I'm not saying it's not an issue, I just don't have any experience in it. But when I see discussions like this I always have to ask myself, Do people really care that much? The forum still works, content isn't being restricted, questions get answered etc. It's just an internet forum. It's just as place to supplement our sport and the discussion of it. It isn't our sport.


The Airsoft forum is something unique. I don't know of any other (correct me if I'm wrong) forum on boards.ie that has had issues like this. I'm not saying it's a user based issue, but perhaps it has been blown out of proportion by users. It's just an Internet forum, isn't it? The Irony here is Airsoft is and outdoor sport, yet we seem to thrive on sitting indoors and arguing over stupid issues. We always harp on about how Airsoft is a team sport and supports team-building.Can't see that reflected here. To be honest, sometimes I'm even scared to open my mouth on here for fear of getting my face smashed in, if I meet any of ye at a site.


The forum has lulled over recent years, but is that a cause of bad moderation? Maybe. But more so, it's just people being bored, not posting or moving else where for what ever reason. Sites and retailers have left boards due to financial reason, and perhaps this has drawn some of the traffic away.


In short. Don't be so quick to point the fingers at moderators for all the problems on the forum.

Lemming wrote: »

I've spent the last few hours writing up a response. Until I got to page two, and hightower & Doc's discussion around FK (lets not beat about the bush here, everybody and their dog knows whom you refer to).

The door on what you think you know swings both ways. And you don't know an awful lot behind the scenes either on or off forum. I mean it's not as if there was any sexist carry-on, or racist remarks based on her religion, or throw-away comments of committing of sexually violent acts, or somewhat less throw away discussions by "grown men" f*cking children about "group" participation in the most taboo of sexual violence that also involved making me watch at a specific location at a specific airsoft event.

Sorry, but I cannot be bothered writing nor contributing any more to this discussion.

Would genuinely like you to post your response, especially if it took hours, it makes me look less weird. You've genuinely being on both sides of the fence and it would be interesting to read.

I'm pretty well informed of what goes on in the community believe it or not, so while your post refers to some loose things I can vaguely recall, I think I also remember hearing the other side of the stories and also neutral sides as well.

FK was brought up in my posts simply because there was some serious impartial modding going on in relation to her time here at parts. That was brought through the channels and I believe that was actually one instance were something was done about it. And it was an example relating to similar traits that have gone on recently.

I also think hightower was ever so slightly off his timeline, as much of the mod team here currently was not active in their mod roles at the time of Firekittens attendance to the forum. And he is partially right in outlining what he said about her being dealth with light handed for some time, when during her initial time here she was brash, rude, aggressive and constantly splurting arguements, even when the lads weren't directly involved. For whatever else "you claim went on" there is no denying the above played a major role in her presence here.

To be pretty honest, I can't remember much of the specifics, but I'm going to hazard a wild guess, that some of your post is labelled at some of the guys I hang around / play with, considering they were always at each others throats. And I do remember two instances where there was stuff levelled at the lads. And when I investigated it through impartial means and avenues, it came back as fluff and utter bollox. But as you say what you "think" you know swings both ways, its pretty irrelevant to this conversation.

I'd ask you re-consider and make your point, while it will probably be defending post (considering I dont think you've seen eye to eye with the likes of me or the people mainly being subject to harsh moderation on this forum) but it will provide a different viewpoint and perhaps some topics to continue on with.