Future of Irish politics and immigration [mod note #58]

Dyr · 07-06-2012 10:42AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I couldn't imagine that the Immigrant population would ever grow to such an extent that it would transform the Political landscape, especially now with our economic woes.

Over 23% of births in this country are to non irish mothers, thats a fair oul whack of the population.

Gurgle · 07-06-2012 11:04AM

Bambi wrote: »

Over 23% of births in this country are to non irish mothers, thats a fair oul whack of the population.

The babies aren't immigrants, they're Irish. (Never mind the fact that I don't believe your statement. Got anything to support it?)

galah · 07-06-2012 11:26AM

jester77 wrote: »

Are immigrants allowed to vote in Irish elections?

I'm not allowed to vote in Germany, except in certain local elections. I don't agree with this as I am paying tax here, so I should have some say in where it goes.

nope, we're not. Well, unless they mess up at the electoral register (which happens a lot more than you think). I wonder if you went to vote although technically you're not allowed, but noone spots ya, could you then contest the entire election? just for sh*ts and giggles?

(and for the general discussion: immigrants who are officially allowed to vote are no longer immigrants - they're Irish (through naturalisation or birth in case of immigrant's children), so the whole discussion is a touch pointless...

Toby Take a Bow · 07-06-2012 11:49AM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Will Sharia law bring in obligatory paragraph breaks and double line spacing on bullet points?

It's not even what he's saying. Taken word-for-word from some right-wing lunatic Croatian blog. One of the posts is a reminder about some battle against the Turks in the 16th century.

Nodin · 07-06-2012 12:29PM

luckyfrank wrote: »

A time bomb is ticking and no one knows .......... happen

Not this bollocks again......

Try some reality.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8189231.stm

Dyr · 07-06-2012 12:30PM

Gurgle wrote: »

The babies aren't immigrants, they're Irish. (Never mind the fact that I don't believe your statement. Got anything to support it?)

They're only Irish citizen if they qualify for Irish passports which many of them will of course. Won't change the fact that they were born to an immigrant parent or that many of them won't be ethnically Irish but we better not mention the war.

The OP is asking if the immigrant population will ever affect the irish political landscape so if you think that 20% of the population being born to non irish parents won't change this country drastically in the next two decades then you might want to come up for some air. It's the kind of population shift this Island has'nt seen the plantations.

And I could care less if you believe me or not, off you go and check the CSO's website, they might not stick that figure on the front page though.

Nodin · 07-06-2012 12:35PM

Bambi wrote: »

They're only Irish citizen if they qualify for Irish passports which many of them will of course. Won't change the fact that they were born to an immigrant parent or that many of them won't be ethnically Irish but we better not mention the war.

If it wasn't for people with your attitude, there wouldn't be a "war".

mikemac1 · 07-06-2012 12:41PM

dpqt wrote: »

the votes of future Eastern European/ Asian/ African immigrants and their children's votes having an affect on our political system?

Balbriggan/Little Africa

Can't see anything strange about their town council
http://www.balbriggan.ie/index.php?option=com_electedmembers&Itemid=39

No change yet, maybe they aren't voting

Dyr · 07-06-2012 12:43PM

Nodin wrote: »

If it wasn't for people with your attitude, there wouldn't be a "war".

What attitude would that be Nodin.

prinz · 07-06-2012 12:51PM

Immigration will dramatically change the Irish political landscape will it?

DeV was what half Cuban born in America..Fianna Fáil? Remember Dr Bhamjee Labour TD? Leo Varadkar Fine Gael?

af_thefragile · 07-06-2012 12:54PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Muslim immigrants to europe can be 'managed' (for want of a better word) either by segregation or integration. The same applies equally to immigrants from any culture.

Segregation is what happens by default when significant numbers move from one culture to another, look at the Irish in London / New York / Melbourne over the last few decades. Its a result of lazy government and xenophobic natives with a 'them and us' mentality.

Integration takes more effort, it requires a structured policy that's followed through generations. You will never 100% integrate the first generation of immigrants from a totally different culture, but you can provide an environment where their kids grow up as Irish as our own.

This works itself out in smaller towns, where there isn't a population to support three catholic schools, a protestant school and a muslim school. Likewise, you don't get streets that turn brown / chinese / polish house by house.

It doesn't work so well in larger urban areas without intervention.

I think the situation in Ireland is pretty good. Most muslims in Ireland are working professionals and they're fairly well integrated into the society. When was the last time you saw muslims rioting in Ireland?

The whole "muslims are taking over and are a threat to the wellbeing of society!!!" is a more British and French problem as they had political policies (France still has thanks to righty Sarkozy) where the muslim mostly immigrant population was seggregated from the society leading to muslim ghettos. And where there are ghettos, there will be social problems.

Thankfully this hasn't happend in Ireland hence the situation is pretty good here. No one complains when they're treated by a muslim doctor in a hospital now do they?

mike65 · 07-06-2012 12:55PM

The Irish talking about bleeding foreigners breeding - you couldn't make it up.

Nodin · 07-06-2012 01:00PM

Bambi wrote: »

What attitude would that be Nodin.

Don't play dumb.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 07-06-2012 01:00PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

^That's nothing more than scaremongering.

Statistics can't predict the future.

Statistically speaking this is probably the dumbest post in the entire Internet.

Congrats took a special kind of dumb to win that award.

celtictiger32 · 07-06-2012 01:03PM

luckyfrank wrote: »

Half the population of brussles is muslim, there's a political party there with growing support thats calling for sharia law, the islamification of europe is happening

wasnt there a section of the muslim community in ireland looking to implement sharia law for all muslims in ireland.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Better eat all the rashers you can while you still can.:):):):)

dont even joke about that my world would end without me rasher sambos

af_thefragile · 07-06-2012 01:07PM

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Statistically speaking this is probably the dumbest post in the entire Internet.

Congrats took a special kind of dumb to win that award.

Can statistics predict wars, natural disasters, significant social events?
Could statistics have predicted when the Cold War would end or 9/11 or the Arab uprising or the Japan tsunami?

There are too many variables to put all your faith on numbers and their predictions.

You seem to put too much faith in numbers there...

Nodin · 07-06-2012 01:08PM

celtictiger32 wrote: »

wasnt there a section of the muslim community in ireland looking to implement sharia law for all muslims in ireland.

One guy and his "organisation". Liam Egan aka whatever he calls himself now. If you can call him, his mate and his missus "a section of the muslim commuinty", you're correct.

Sappa · 07-06-2012 01:10PM

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing,the Muslims would ban alcohol making us mote productive and saving billions in health services,criminals would lose a few fingers or arms reducing crime and the roads would be a lot safer with no women allowed to drive

Dyr · 07-06-2012 01:11PM

mike65 wrote: »

The Irish talking about bleeding foreigners breeding - you couldn't make it up.

A Classic bleedin fordiners thread denial card 4 in a series of 20:
"who are we to talk?"

So far I've got:
2: "It's not happening"
7: "So what if it's happening you're just racist"
and
and two 14's "We don't deserve any better"

I'll swap a 14 for an 18 (Immigrants work harder/Are middle class/don't wear pyjamas) if anyone has one to spare.

prinz · 07-06-2012 01:15PM

Nodin wrote: »

One guy and his "organisation". Liam Egan aka whatever he calls himself now..

Azzam al-Britani Irelandi.

Gurgle · 07-06-2012 01:18PM

Bambi wrote: »

Won't change the fact that they were born to an immigrant parent or that many of them won't be ethnically Irish

That fact is irrelevant.
If they're raised in Ireland side by side with 'ethnically Irish' kids, they're Irish. Its happening already, my kids have friends in school whose parents come from all over the world. Listening to them, you wouldn't know which ones were which. Some of them have obviously foreign first names, some of them have different coloured skin but if (:rolleyes:) you can get over that they're all talking about the same things with the same accents.

Bambi wrote: »

blah blah blah dey tuk our swans blah

whatever

Bambi wrote: »

off you go and check the CSO's website, they might not stick that figure on the front page though.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/vitalstats/2009/chapter2_2009.pdf

In 2009
75.7% of mothers’ were of Irish nationality

5% Born to Irish father and foreign mother, would they qualify for Irishness in your book? Or should they be stoned for dirtying the gene pool?

89.3% were to a mother from the EU. Mostly the same political structure and ideology, also mostly christian, will they do?

Only 6.5% were born to parents who were both from outside the EU.

Nodin · 07-06-2012 01:19PM

Bambi wrote: »

A Classic (......) spare.

Why do minorities have problems integrating? Well one of them is the tendency of certain parties to pop up and say "you're not really (x)". You're part of the problem. You're one of the causes of what problems might arise.

Dyr · 07-06-2012 01:42PM

Gurgle wrote: »

That fact is irrelevant.

Because you desperately want it be? Not how the real world works hoss, go telling the good people of norn iron that ethnicity means nothing. How people align themselves ethnically has a fairly big impact on politics.

If they're raised in Ireland side by side with 'ethnically Irish' kids, they're Irish.

If they're brought up to consider themselves Irish they will be. If not, they won't. How will it pan out? We just don't know. Truth is they will probably consider themselves to be XYZ-Irish.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/vitalstats/2009/chapter2_2009.pdf

In 2009
75.7% of mothers’ were of Irish nationality

Good lad, so what does the make the other 25% of mothers? Non Irish? Knew we'd get there in the end.

biko · 07-06-2012 01:55PM

The face of Irish immigration and politicis will change that's for certain.
For the better or for the worse, I don't know.

According to Guardian the foreign population is 11%, and the majority of those from other EU states.
But we can compare to UK who usually is 10 years ahead of us in regards to everything, certainly fashion.
Is that our future? Could it be?

I think today's politicians needs to look at other EU countries and say, "yes the immigration policy in XXX would suit Ireland too" and make plans now that will affect the country later.

Gurgle · 07-06-2012 02:01PM

Bambi wrote: »

go telling the good people of norn iron that ethnicity means nothing.

I believe the issues in Northern Ireland were not caused by ethnicity but displacement, oppression, discrimination on religious grounds...
In other words the exact policies you want to apply to foreigners.

Bambi wrote: »

Good lad, so what does the make the other 25% of mothers? Non Irish? Knew we'd get there in the end.

And the rest of the statistics I quoted?

prinz · 07-06-2012 02:06PM

biko wrote: »

I think today's politicians needs to look at other EU countries and say, "yes the immigration policy in XXX would suit Ireland too" and make plans now that will affect the country later.

In fairness bar a few minor tweaks on an on-going basis as a whole I think the country has done quite well. There's no need to adopt a one-size fits all 'policy'.

biko · 07-06-2012 02:07PM

From this point on I will ban any problem posters.
Problem poster = not posting in the utmost civil manner.

biko · 07-06-2012 02:10PM

prinz wrote: »

In fairness bar a few minor tweaks on an on-going basis as a whole I think the country has done quite well. There's no need to adopt a one-size fits all 'policy'.

I disagree, the country is going well yes and it seems the current politics is working. Or perhaps it's a lack of interest in Ireland compared to the bigger EU countries, I don't know.

But it will be too late to fix it later, we need to have clear policies now while the going is good and all/most of us get along just fine.

af_thefragile · 07-06-2012 02:12PM

biko wrote: »

The face of Irish immigration and politicis will change that's for certain.
For the better or for the worse, I don't know.

According to Guardian the foreign population is 11%, and the majority of those from other EU states.
But we can compare to UK who usually is 10 years ahead of us in regards to everything, certainly fashion.
Is that our future? Could it be?

I think today's politicians needs to look at other EU countries and say, "yes the immigration policy in XXX would suit Ireland too" and make plans now that will affect the country later.

Ireland is very different from UK when it comes to ethnic minorities. In UK most ethnic minorities are from a working class background and there are many ghettos as a result of many years of social segregation.

In Ireland most immigrants are working professionals and they don't live in ghettos. Ireland never had any social seggregation policies and hence the immigrants are fairly integrated into the society here.

Dyr · 07-06-2012 02:13PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Bambi wrote: »

go telling the good people of norn iron that ethnicity means nothing.

I believe the issues in Northern Ireland were not caused by ethnicity but displacement, oppression, discrimination on religious grounds...
In other words the exact policies you want to apply to foreigners.

You can believe what you want buddy but if you believe that ethnicity is'nt the root cause of the north's problems, then good luck.

Sorta weird that you seem to think that I've put forward any opinion in this thread on policies when it comes to foreigners. You seem to be having an hysterical reaction to anything that even appears to challenge your belief system on this issue. Common enough with this topic and fun to observe.

So anyway, 23% born to non irish mothers. Turned out it was true yeah?

Future of Irish politics and immigration [mod note #58]

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