15 Mass Extinctions - End Product: Homosapiens

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 01:43PM #1

We've all heard the argument propounded by Christopher Hitchens where he talks of human evolution for 100,000 years through suffering and misery.

I was thinking about it from a more distant perspective. According to the theist position, one must believe that God superintended and planned mass extinction approximately 15 times (5 major ones and ~10 'minor' ones). All of these mass extinctions were obviously required for us to be here. Often we hear of evolution as one continuous broken line of descendent's but forget that all of these descendent's were nearly wiped out at one of many mass extinction events.

Indeed, we're not excluded from these events and one is bound to happen to us in the future. It's speculated that about every 20-30 million years some form of extinction event occurs. So why would a god superintend and formulate such a bizarre plan...in essence, he orchestrated at least 15 mass extinctions for us to be here.

It's true to say that extinctions 'open up' avenues for new life to grow and flourish but I don't think that detracts from the point. This all powerful, all loving and all knowing god decided to undergo 15 mass extinctions to kill another person (himself) to make people behave better, and then will have us all killed in a future mass extinction event.

Believable? I certainly don't think so.

Turtwig · 02-06-2012 02:21PM

You as a mere nothing speck of a finite being cannot make claim to understand the mind of a infinite one. :mad:

qrrgprgua · 02-06-2012 03:11PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

and then will have us all killed in a future mass extinction event.

Believable? I certainly don't think so.

The "us" will be the "Them" as we won't be around. Life depends what you mean by life.. Physical empirical or Spiritual metaphysical.

Undergod · 02-06-2012 03:13PM

Mysterious ways.

Also, that's based on evolutionist atheist science, which flat-out denies the self-evident fact that the earth CAN'T be more the 6,000 or so years old.

endacl · 02-06-2012 03:14PM

Who said homo sapiens is an 'end product'. Evolution hasn't gone away, you know...

Opticom · 02-06-2012 03:36PM

This is along the theme that Religion and Science must conflict, known as the conflict thesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis

MagicMarker · 02-06-2012 03:48PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

So why would a god superintend and formulate such a bizarre plan...

I happen to know the answer, but don't think I should post any spoilers.

PM me for further details...

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 04:39PM

endacl wrote: »

Who said homo sapiens is an 'end product'. Evolution hasn't gone away, you know...

True - I didn't mean it in that sense. I meant it in terms of the product which needed to exist for 'god' to be ready to kill his son.

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 04:43PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The "us" will be the "Them" as we won't be around. Life depends what you mean by life.. Physical empirical or Spiritual metaphysical.

Where have you seen spiritual life? I'd be curious to meet it...

Turtwig · 02-06-2012 05:09PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

Where have you seen spiritual life? I'd be curious to meet it...

Oh but you have met it . . .

recedite · 02-06-2012 05:38PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

So why would a god superintend and formulate such a bizarre plan...in essence, he orchestrated at least 15 mass extinctions for us to be here.

It's His hobby. Its like standing up loads of dominoes on end, and then watching them all get knocked down. The best fun was when He drowned everyone in The Flood, except for the Noah family of course. Because He needed them to repopulate the Earth. (He had lost the special magic wand that creates lifeforms out of dirt a while before then, so He needed to maintain seed populations).

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 06:40PM

I still find it hard to believe that anyone remains a believer and still thinks that 15 mass extinctions and our impending extinction was part of a divine plan. Surely it's so obviously unlikely to be true.

Ellis Dee · 02-06-2012 06:52PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

I still find it hard to believe that anyone remains a believer and still thinks that 15 mass extinctions and our impending extinction was part of a divine plan. Surely it's so obviously unlikely to be true.

15 mass extinctions probably comes nowhere near the real figure. Bear in mind that the god-botherers would have us believe their sky fairy created the entire universe, not just planet Earth. That being the case, the number of mass extinctions that have happened in the 14 billion years or so since the Big Bang, the number of planets and even galaxies that have been totally wrecked in massive cosmic cataclysms, is probably in the billions, trillions or higher. Whole stars have gone through their entire life cycle, exploded and the dust and gas that was left have in turn gone on the create a new generation of stars ---

Opticom · 02-06-2012 07:42PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

This all powerful, all loving and all knowing god decided to undergo 15 mass extinctions tokill another person (himself) to make people behave better, and then will have us all killed in a future mass extinction event.

Believable? I certainly don't think so.

Indeed, and I don't know which particular belief you're referring to, but it's not any recognisable Christian belief.

As for evolution, the Theistic evolution view, (as opposed to young earth creationism view) is generally accepted by most major Christian churches, virtually all Jewish denominations; and other religious groups that don't believe in a totally literalist stance concerning scriptures.

Kivaro · 02-06-2012 07:44PM

endacl wrote: »

Who said homo sapiens is an 'end product'. Evolution hasn't gone away, you know...

And I'm thankful that it hasn't.
If it finished with us, then I'd be very disappointed and would be asking for my money back.

I'm hoping for an enlightened bunch of homo sapien descendants, because the present crop ain't too bright ........................ (believin' in fairies and all that).

MagicMarker · 02-06-2012 07:50PM

Opticom wrote: »

Indeed, and I don't which particular belief your referring to, but it's not any recognisable Christian belief.

Well if you're happy to believe in evolution and believe we're all part of 'God's plan' then logic dictates that the extinction of all species before us was also part of 'God's plan'.

But let me guess, you'd like me to quote the relevant parts of the bible that says this?

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 07:51PM

Opticom wrote: »

Indeed, and I don't which particular belief your referring to, but it's not any recognisable Christian belief.

As for evolution, the Theistic evolution, (as opposed to Young Earth) creationism the view of is generally accepted by major Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church and some mainline Protestant denominations; virtually all Jewish denominations; and other religious groups that don't believe in a totally literalist stance concerning scriptures.

What I'm saying can't be a belief of any religious system because all of these extinctions are not and could not be mentioned in any religious text.

So no, it's not a belief.

But what is a belief is the concept of a being that is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving etc. I think this view of 15 mass extinctions is incompatible with any religion which claims to have a god with those three properties.

Opticom · 02-06-2012 07:58PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

What I'm saying can't be a belief of any religious system because all of these extinctions are not and could not be mentioned in any religious text.

So no, it's not a belief.

But what is a belief is the concept of a being that is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving etc. I think this view of 15 mass extinctions is incompatible with any religion which claims to have a god with those three properties.

It's not clear to me what exactly you are claiming, is it that Christians cannot believe in evolution ?

Opticom · 02-06-2012 08:00PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well if you're happy to believe in evolution and believe we're all part of 'God's plan' then logic dictates that the extinction of all species before us was also part of 'God's plan'.

But let me guess, you'd like me to quote the relevant parts of the bible that says this?

No I don't use the bible to explain scientific theories like evolution, why do you ?

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 08:01PM

Opticom wrote: »

It's not clear to me what exactly you are claiming, is it that Christians cannot believe in evolution ?

It's pretty clear to me.

1. Theists claim Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent diety
2. 15 Mass Extinctions (and our impending one) that cause mass suffering and could be prevented.
3. There is no reason to suggest an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity exists.

MagicMarker · 02-06-2012 08:02PM

Opticom wrote: »

No I don't use the bible to explain scientific theories like evolution, why do you ?

I wasn't offering to use the bible to explain scientific theories.

Opticom · 02-06-2012 08:09PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

It's pretty clear to me.

1. Theists claim Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent diety
2. 15 Mass Extinctions (and our impending one) that cause mass suffering and could be prevented.
3. There is no reason to suggest an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity exists.

That's not a correctly constructed argument, its non sequitur logic, as your conclusion (which may be true or false) does not follow from your premises.

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 08:20PM

Opticom wrote: »

That's not a correctly constructed argument, its non sequitur logic, as your conclusion (which may be true or false) does not follow from your premises.

Obviously, I phrased it in terms of definites by saying 'no reason'. :rolleyes:

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that the concept of 15 mass extinctions with our impending extinction...indeed thousands of diseases which will kill us at will, not to mention earthquakes and natural viruses which can rapidly multiply and kill us all.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall of that type of extinction stuff...

...does not logically adhere to the principles of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence together. And my conclusion may be false...I grant that...but I think it makes it much more unlikely to be believable. How can you square this circle? [Sort of a play on the Argument from Evil]

02-06-2012 08:21PM

Opticom wrote: »

That's not a correctly constructed argument, firstly its non sequitur logic, as your conclusion (which may be true or false) does not follow from your premises. Secondly, your premises may or may not be true, and for a conclusion to be valid the premises must be true.

So which of his premises aren't true?
That god is claimed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omni benevolent?
That there haven't been at least 15 mass extinctions?
That millions of species dying out doesn't count as suffering?

And how does the conclusion not emerge from the premises?

Why would God cause this long circuitous path to humans rather than just poofing us modern animals into existence like in the bible?
Doing it one way means that he causes suffering, therefore he could not be omni benevolent.
But if he was forced to do it that way, that means he is not omnipotent.

So why did God cause 15 mass extinctions?

Wereghost · 02-06-2012 08:28PM

There's another aspect to the issue of an anthropocentric yet omniscient and omnipotent creator, which is the sheer length of time between extinctions. The dinosaurs were around for circa 160 million years before God allegedly went nuclear, and even then He supposedly didn't get around to us for about another 65 million years, so why the delays? Hitchens brought this up at some point in God Is Not Great, and if I recall he pointed out that this anthropocentric, interventionist version of God doesn't sound all that impressive, all things considered. To me, it makes a kind of sense that religious people might want to embrace Young Earth Creationism - YEC might be nonsense, but at least it postulates a God who isn't, anthropocentrically, a conspicuous underachiever.

MisterEpicurus · 02-06-2012 08:30PM

Scrawny71 wrote: »

There's another aspect to the issue of an anthropocentric yet omniscient and omnipotent creator, which is the sheer length of time between extinctions. The dinosaurs were around for circa 160 million years before God allegedly went nuclear, and even then He supposedly didn't get around to us for about another 65 million years, so why the delays? Hitchens brought this up at some point in God Is Not Great, and if I recall he pointed out that this anthropocentric, interventionist version of God doesn't sound all that impressive, all things considered. To me, it makes a kind of sense that religious people might want to embrace Young Earth Creationism - YEC might be nonsense, but at least it postulates a God who isn't, anthropocentrically, a conspicuous underachiever.

I also read somewhere that it was intentional for this asteroid to be on its trajectory starting at 165 thousand years ago until finally it got inside our solar system to wipe out the dinosaurs...what if it missed after 100 thousand years of travel? :rolleyes:

MagicMarker · 02-06-2012 08:37PM

Scrawny71 wrote: »

There's another aspect to the issue of an anthropocentric yet omniscient and omnipotent creator, which is the sheer length of time between extinctions. The dinosaurs were around for circa 160 million years before God allegedly went nuclear, and even then He supposedly didn't get around to us for about another 65 million years, so why the delays? Hitchens brought this up at some point in God Is Not Great, and if I recall he pointed out that this anthropocentric, interventionist version of God doesn't sound all that impressive, all things considered. To me, it makes a kind of sense that religious people might want to embrace Young Earth Creationism - YEC might be nonsense, but at least it postulates a God who isn't, anthropocentrically, a conspicuous underachiever.

The standard religious response to this is that God exists outside of time. So millions of years to us is nothing to God.

Makes sense I guess....

Opticom · 02-06-2012 08:45PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

Obviously, I phrased it in terms of definites by saying 'no reason'. :rolleyes:

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that the concept of 15 mass extinctions with our impending extinction...indeed thousands of diseases which will kill us at will, not to mention earthquakes and natural viruses which can rapidly multiply and kill us all.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall of that type of extinction stuff...

...does not logically adhere to the principles of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence together. And my conclusion may be false...I grant that...but I think it makes it much more unlikely to be believable. How can you square this circle? [Sort of a play on the Argument from Evil]

Ok, I think I understand your argument, it's a version of the problem of natural evil.

So, with your knowledge of the chain of evolutionary events, how would man and the natural world as we know it exist today if these natural 'mass' extinctions were not permitted ? Was there an alternative non theistic evolutionary process, and if so what was it ?

rccaulfield · 02-06-2012 09:12PM

Most people haven't a clue about any mass extinction let alone evolution. Any believer who is aware of the history of the planet yet still believes will be making mumbo jumbo up such as god exists outside of timeor works in mysterious ways etc which is just embarrasing.

MrPudding · 02-06-2012 09:19PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The "us" will be the "Them" as we won't be around.

How do you know we won't be around? Are the end times not coming? Is there anything that will make you realise the ridiculousness of your beliefs? I expect there isn't, given that with all the "revelations" of the last few years you can't even see the despicable organisation that is your precious church for what it is.

MrP

endacl · 02-06-2012 10:38PM

MrPudding wrote: »

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The "us" will be the "Them" as we won't be around.

How do you know we won't be around? Are the end times not coming? Is there anything that will make you realise the ridiculousness of your beliefs? I expect there isn't, given that with all the "revelations" of the last few years you can't even see the despicable organisation that is your precious church for what it is.

MrP

Kinda mean, but spot on Mr P.;-)

15 Mass Extinctions - End Product: Homosapiens

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