Someone else speeding in my car

thesteve · 30-05-2012 07:06PM #1

Long story short, a mate of mine was caught on camera speeding in my car, but had moved to Oz by the time I got the fine to my house (it was a good two weeks after the offense, he was using it to tie up odds and ends before leaving).

I put his name and Oz address on the letter, sent it back to the cops and got another letter telling me I now had no obligation to take the points or pay the fine.

Now I got another letter saying the one they sent to Oz was returned, and the clocks ticking to pay the fine, reminding me of the offense, bla bla and asking for a clarification of who was driving!

My question is am I bound to cover this if they can't get in touch with the driver, as the vehicle was registered to me? Is it my responsibility to get the driver to accept the letter / cough up the fine and their license details? Or are the cops chancing their arms?

Any advice would be appreciated!

CiniO · 30-05-2012 07:15PM

I generally have no experience in this matter, but from what I heard in this forum before, is that you are responsible for a fine and points, until other person accepts it.
So if they can't find your friend in Oz, or if he's not accepting the fine, you will be responsible.

For me it sounds extremally ridiculous (how can you be responsible for what other person did), but that seems to be the sad reality in Ireland.

bugler · 30-05-2012 07:35PM

CiniO wrote: »

For me it sounds extremally ridiculous (how can you be responsible for what other person did), but that seems to be the sad reality in Ireland.

Would any fine be paid if you could pawn it off on a guy halfway around the world?

CiniO · 30-05-2012 07:42PM

bugler wrote: »

Would any fine be paid if you could pawn it off on a guy halfway around the world?

The goal of issuing fines and points, is to fine a person who committed an offense.
Fining car owner when real offender rejects to pay a fine, is definitely not a way to obtain this goal.

corktina · 30-05-2012 07:42PM

if you didnt do the crime, you dont have to do the ...er, fine. Not your problem.

uberwolf · 30-05-2012 07:44PM

CiniO wrote: »

The goal of issuing fines and points, is to fine a person who committed an offense.
Fining car owner when real offender rejects to pay a fine, is definitely not a way to obtain this goal.

'the real offender' is accusing the OP of lying. The car owner was the driver until he can prove otherwise.

Jimbob 83 · 30-05-2012 07:47PM

Love how you let this so called friend borrow your car and now he can't be seen for dust

Markcheese · 30-05-2012 07:47PM

The " a big boy did it and ran away " defense..... If he's your mate he should take the rap and get u off the hook....

Nissan doctor · 30-05-2012 07:47PM

If it came down to it, would it not be up to the Garda to prove that the OP was driving?

What sort of speed camera was it do you know? I'd ask the Garda do they have a picture of the offence.

K.Flyer · 30-05-2012 07:48PM

The simple answer is that the registered owner of the car is liable for any fines, penalties or points unless someone else accepts the responsability, signs the declaration on the back of the summons and sends it back to the fines office with all of their driving license details on it.

(from experience)

Yakuza · 30-05-2012 07:49PM

CiniO wrote: »

The goal of issuing fines and points, is to fine a person who committed an offense.
Fining car owner when real offender rejects to pay a fine, is definitely not a way to obtain this goal.

Cinio, I think you're mistaken in assuming the state values justice being done over the fact that someone gets done for it and forks over the money.

Sure isn't it like shooting fish in a barrel - presume the registered owner is guilty (by deeming him responsible) unless he can prove otherwise?

lostboy · 30-05-2012 07:49PM

well like, you now have a letter saying you were not responsible?

longhalloween · 30-05-2012 07:49PM

uberwolf wrote: »

'the real offender' is accusing the OP of lying. The car owner was the driver until he can prove otherwise.

That's how it goes. It was your car in your name, so you're responsible for it.

Sorry.

Jimbob 83 · 30-05-2012 07:50PM

Fact is your friend is now living in OZ which means those harmless points here will mean something much bigger to him the way things are over there if he accepts them.

Was your friend insured to drive the car as insurance documentation should be tracable.

CiniO · 30-05-2012 07:51PM

uberwolf wrote: »

The car owner was the driver until he can prove otherwise.

Any link for any law stating the above?
Why would the owner be automatically considered to be driving the car?

I thought it was up to the accuser to prove someone was guilty, not to the accused person to prove he is innocent.

If I borrowed my knife to someone and that person would use it for murder, would I be automatically accused, and would it be up to me to prove it wasn't me who killed?the real offender' is accusing the OP of lying.

CiniO · 30-05-2012 07:56PM

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

Was your friend insured to drive the car as insurance documentation should be tracable.

That's the perfect point for the guards to start.
If his friend wasn't insured, then instead of doing OP for speeding (which he didn't commit), they should do OP for letting vehicle to uninsured driver.

uberwolf · 30-05-2012 07:56PM

CiniO wrote: »

Any link for any law stating the above?
Why would the owner be automatically considered to be driving the car?

I thought it was up to the accuser to prove someone was guilty, not to the accused person to prove he is innocent.

If I borrowed my knife to someone and that person would use it for murder, would I be automatically accused, and would it be up to me to prove it wasn't me who killed?the real offender' is accusing the OP of lying.

No, I don't have a link.

To borrow your analogy. If your gun, for which you held a license, was used to kill someone and there was absolutely no evidence to show that you were innocent of the killing how do you think that would work out for you?

snowman707 · 30-05-2012 07:57PM

Nissan doctor wrote: »

If it came down to it, would it not be up to the Garda to prove that the OP was driving?

What sort of speed camera was it do you know? I'd ask the Garda do they have a picture of the offence.

K.Flyer wrote: »

The simple answer is that the registered owner of the car is liable for any fines, penalties or points unless someone else accepts the responsability, signs the declaration on the back of the summons and sends it back to the fines office with all of their driving license details on it.

(from experience)

and proper order too

CiniO · 30-05-2012 07:58PM

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

Love how you let this so called friend borrow your car and now he can't be seen for dust

Are you trying to suggest that OP is not telling us all the truth?

masseyno9 · 30-05-2012 08:00PM

CiniO wrote: »

Any link for any law stating the above?
Why would the owner be automatically considered to be driving the car?

I thought it was up to the accuser to prove someone was guilty, not to the accused person to prove he is innocent.

If I borrowed my knife to someone and that person would use it for murder, would I be automatically accused, and would it be up to me to prove it wasn't me who killed?the real offender' is accusing the OP of lying.

I agree it's a stupid way of operating, but it's commonly known that "innocent 'til proven guilty" doesn't apply to motoring offences. It's been on here a good bit.

OP, I'd argue the case, but I'd also get onto your "friend" and have him take his points and fine. Sure if he's in oz, the points hardly carry over? Was the notice that was sent to him actually rejected by him, or was it just undelivered. Is it possible the address wasn't transcribed properly?

Jimbob 83 · 30-05-2012 08:02PM

CiniO wrote: »

Are you trying to suggest that OP is not telling us all the truth?

No it's exactly as stated, has his friend taken responsablility ?

CiniO · 30-05-2012 08:04PM

uberwolf wrote: »

No, I don't have a link.

To borrow your analogy. If your gun, for which you held a license, was used to kill someone and there was absolutely no evidence to show that you were innocent of the killing how do you think that would work out for you?

So you are saying, that if I had a gun licensed on my name, and I would borrow this gun to a friend who used it to kill someone, I could be automatically prosecuted for murder without any other evidence?
Would it be up to me to prove I was innocent?
I would think, that for being accused for murder, there must be an evidence provided that person accused it guilty.
If law in Ireland really works in a way you are saying, I should consider moving away then.

My understanding is that if I let my gun to someone who commited murder with it, then I should be prosecuted for letting gun to unauthorised person, but not for murder.

Obviously I don't have a gun neither licence for it, but example is nearly equivalent to OP's speeding fine example.

Del2005 · 30-05-2012 08:04PM

CiniO wrote: »

Any link for any law stating the above?
Why would the owner be automatically considered to be driving the car?

I thought it was up to the accuser to prove someone was guilty, not to the accused person to prove he is innocent.

If I borrowed my knife to someone and that person would use it for murder, would I be automatically accused, and would it be up to me to prove it wasn't me who killed?the real offender' is accusing the OP of lying.

Driving isn't a right it's a privilege, or so the EU ruled. The usual assumed innocents doesn't enter it as you've no legal right to drive, you drive at the pleasure of our leaders, so they can make up any rule they want

corktina · 30-05-2012 08:04PM

I dont think that Legal Opinions on here are worth the Plasma they are written on.

Go to court if necessary, take the Oath and tell the Judge it was not you driving, then ask the Gard/Prosecution to furnish whatever evidence they have.If they have none (which according to you OP they wont have), then HOW do you all imagine he can get the fine/points?

Jimbob 83 · 30-05-2012 08:09PM

CiniO wrote: »

So you are saying, that if I had a gun licensed on my name, and I would borrow this gun to a friend who used it to kill someone, I could be automatically prosecuted for murder without any other evidence?
Would it be up to me to prove I was innocent?
I would think, that for being accused for murder, there must be an evidence provided that person accused it guilty.
If law in Ireland really works in a way you are saying, I should consider moving away then.

My understanding is that if I let my gun to someone who commited murder with it, then I should be prosecuted for letting gun to unauthorised person, but not for murder.

Obviously I don't have a gun neither licence for it, but example is nearly equivalent to OP's speeding fine example.

You would probably do jailtime for not reporting your firearm stolen tbh.

Makes sense to me.

CiniO · 30-05-2012 08:11PM

Del2005 wrote: »

Driving isn't a right it's a privilege, or so the EU ruled. The usual assumed innocents doesn't enter it as you've no legal right to drive, you drive at the pleasure of our leaders, so they can make up any rule they want

I read the article linked by you.
Situation was significantly different there, as car owners refused to provide information who was driving, while OP didn't refuse to do so, and gave details of person who committed offence to authorities.

From article:

Those who keep and drive motor cars have accepted certain responsibilities and obligations ... in the legal framework of the United Kingdom, these responsibilities include the obligation, in the event of suspected road traffic offences, to inform the authorities of the identity of the driver.

I know it's UK, but maybe it's similar in Ireland. OP did inform authorities of indentity of the driver who committed offence.
Now it shouldn't be OP responsibility to catch him and force him to pay the fine. It's guards job to find and prosecute offender.

CiniO · 30-05-2012 08:12PM

corktina wrote: »

I dont think that Legal Opinions on here are worth the Plasma they are written on.

Go to court if necessary, take the Oath and tell the Judge it was not you driving, then ask the Gard/Prosecution to furnish whatever evidence they have.If they have none (which according to you OP they wont have), then HOW do you all imagine he can get the fine/points?

I agree with you.
I'm of the opinion, that he shouldn't be prosecuted for speeding until they prove it was him driving.

Nissan doctor · 30-05-2012 08:14PM

A couple of years ago when the wife only had her new car a few months, we got a letter with a fuzzy picture in which you could make out nothing but the registration, from the M50 toll saying we were overdue payment for a trip made. I rang them and told them that the car wasn't even in Dublin on the day mentioned(or any day near it). These letters and phone calls went on for a few weeks. eventually, a solicitors letter was sent, demanding evidential proof from them, other then an easily copied reg plate, that it was our car and my wife driving.

A couple of days later and a phone call saying they could not provide legal proof and would therefore not be pursuing the matter further.

Now the same has to be true in a situation like above, it may be assumed that the OP/car owner was driving, but if they say they weren't, then surely, in order to legally issue a fine, the Garda have to provide proof that it was the OP who committed the offence.

CiniO · 30-05-2012 08:24PM

Nissan doctor wrote: »

A couple of years ago when they wife only had her new car a few months, we got a letter with a fuzzy picture in which you could make out nothing but the registration, from the M50 toll saying we were overdue payment for a trip made. I rang them and told them that the car wasn't even in Dublin on the day mentioned(or any day near it). These letters and phone calls went on for a few weeks. eventually, a solicitors letter was sent, demanding evidential proof from them, other then an easily copied reg plate, that it was our car and my wife driving.

A couple of days later and a phone call saying they could not provide legal proof and would therefore not be pursuing the matter further.

Now the same has to be true in a situation like above, it may be assumed that the OP/car owner was driving, but if they say they weren't, then surely, in order to legally issue a fine, the Garda have to provide proof that it was the OP who committed the offence.

That sounds exactly as it should be working. I hope it it.

meathstevie · 30-05-2012 08:34PM

First important issue with a fixed penalty ticket is the following; it's an offer for an out of court settlement as a means of dealing with a driving offence.

If you don't accept the settlement; as in don't pay the fine or reply to the correspondence as a rule a summons to go and explain your actions in the district court will follow.

Now, OP, you're stating that you weren't driving the car but a friend of yours who has now left the country was. That's fine, not every vehicle is driven by the registered owner all the time so that's why there's an option to provide details of the driver on the documents sent out to you.

Your main problem is that the driver at the time is no longer in the jurisdiction so you can either clarify this with the fixed penalty folks or you can go and explain this in court. You will need to provide full ID details for your friend in either case ( name, date of birth and last known address in Ireland and preferably current address abroad ).

Now if either the fixed penalty folk or the district court judge accept that it was likely that your friend was driving ( remember, it's an offence, prosecutor must prove the facts beyond all reasonable doubt, as in make the district judge doubt that it was you, it could have been someone else driving that should be you in the clear ) he can expect a summons and maybe a warrant against him when he returns to Ireland from his time in Australia.

bugler · 30-05-2012 09:07PM

Nissan doctor wrote: »

If it came down to it, would it not be up to the Garda to prove that the OP was driving?

What sort of speed camera was it do you know? I'd ask the Garda do they have a picture of the offence.

I'm now wondering if I should wear a balaclava while driving.

Who needs to keep an eye out for speed cameras?!

Someone else speeding in my car

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