Is Atheism a religion?

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 11:42am

koth wrote: »

Thanks, that clears up what you meant with the original response.

As to your comment regarding the dictionary, are you honestly saying that if someone points out a defintion of a phrase, they have a religious belief system party based on the dictionary?

not exactly but if you feel the need to defend it then what exactly are you defending ?. would it be so terrible to admit that it is a religion ?

29-05-2012 11:44am

DuPLeX wrote: »

not exactly but if you feel the need to defend it then what exactly are you defending ?. would it be so terrible to admit that it is a religion ?

repeatedly saying the same thing over and over without any basis does not make it true
i really hope you're just messing

Delirium · 29-05-2012 11:45am

DuPLeX wrote: »

not exactly but if you feel the need to defend it then what exactly are you defending ?. would it be so terrible to admit that it is a religion ?

No, but it would be wrong. and I'm exactly sure what it is you claim I'm defending. All that I've done is just discuss things that I felt you posted that were incorrect.

ShooterSF · 29-05-2012 11:46am

Oh sweet jiminy cricket! One book provides definitions for words that humanity created in the first place. Words that can be found and researched throughout history for their meanings and you want to claim that believing the dictionary is generally reliable is as valid as believing a book closed to updates for 1500 odd years claiming supernatural phenomena that doesn't seem to occur in modern day?
Do you actually believe this crap? Are you proposing that out of some misunderstanding of the word tolerance we cast aside any search for truth and all just pretend everyone's opinion is just as valid because they have a right to hold it?

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 11:48am

ShooterSF wrote: »

Oh sweet jiminy cricket! One book provides definitions for words that humanity created in the first place. Words that can be found and researched throughout history for their meanings and you want to claim that believing the dictionary is generally reliable is as valid as believing a book closed to updates for 1500 odd years claiming supernatural phenomena that doesn't seem to occur in modern day?
Do you actually believe this crap? Are you proposing that out of some misunderstanding of the word tolerance we cast aside any search for truth and all just pretend everyone's opinion is just as valid because they have a right to hold it?

So you are saying that everybody's opinion is not equally valid? that your'e searching for truth ?

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 11:51am

DuPLeX wrote: »

So you are saying that everybody's opinion is not equally valid?

When that person's opinion is used to justify oppression, torture, covering up abuse etc etc etc. Absolutely.

Gbear · 29-05-2012 11:51am

DuPLeX wrote: »

So you are saying that everybody's opinion is not equally valid?

Of course it isn't!

Is my opinion on how to build a bridge as valid as that of a structural engineer?
Is my opinion on cancer therapy as valid as an that of an oncologist?

Opinions are only valid if they're based on sound reasoning.

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 11:53am

koth wrote: »

No, but it would be wrong. and I'm exactly sure what it is you claim I'm defending. All that I've done is just discuss things that I felt you posted that were incorrect.

what exactly is incorrect ? (except presumably that Atheism is a religion)

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 11:57am

Gbear wrote: »

Of course it isn't!

Is my opinion on how to build a bridge as valid as that of a structural engineer?
Is my opinion on cancer therapy as valid as an that of an oncologist?

Opinions are only valid if they're based on sound reasoning.

So is your opinion on the existence of God as valid as Pope Benny's ?
This sounds like the kind of "I'm right and your'e wrong" thinking that brought us such delights as the Spanish inquisition in the past..
Could it be ...? R
A religion ?

ShooterSF · 29-05-2012 12:01pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

So is your opinion on the existence of God as valid as Pope Benny's ?

Yes. He has zero evidence for his existence.

This sounds like the kind of "I'm Right and your'e wrong" thinking that brought us such delights as the Spanish inquisition in the past..
Could it be ...?
A religion ?

Are you being purposely obtuse? You realise the difference between the right to hold any opinion you want and the idea that all opinions are equally right? Also while killing people who hold a differing opinion of yours is an aspect of many religions, again, it alone would not make something a religion.

Delirium · 29-05-2012 12:03pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

what exactly is incorrect ? (except presumably that Atheism is a religion)

Well that automatically excludes a lot of your posts in that case.

But we also have you claiming that science is a religion too because people trust the findings of scientific community. But I put that down to you not understanding the peer-review process.

Statistician · 29-05-2012 12:06pm

shizz wrote: »

Theism isn't a religion where as say Catholicism is. So how can Atheism be a religion?

There are multiple theist religions because different people have different ideas about possible deities. There can only be one atheist religion, so it can be called 'Atheism'

Atheism certainly has the characteristics of a religion. As we have no proof of an existence or non-existence of a God, then Atheism, like Catholicism, is faith based. People also group themselves as this very forum shows and read scripture (Dawkins etc) about their religion.

Some Atheists also try to convince theists of their beliefs so it is also evangelical.

Yep, Atheism is indeed a religion.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:07pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

So is your opinion on the existence of God as valid as Pope Benny's ?
This sounds like the kind of "I'm right and your'e wrong" thinking that brought us such delights as the Spanish inquisition in the past..
Could it be ...? R
A religion ?

Actually the thinking that brought us the Spanish Inquisition was the opinion that anyone who disagrees with Rome must die.

Can you tell me where any atheist has stated that those who believes in God must die for holding that belief?

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:08pm

bluewolf wrote: »

repeatedly saying the same thing over and over without any basis does not make it true
i really hope you're just messing

No. not messing.are you ? Maybe
you should stop repeating the same thing over and over ......just a thought.

The Mad Hatter · 29-05-2012 12:09pm

Statistician wrote: »

shizz wrote: »

Theism isn't a religion where as say Catholicism is. So how can Atheism be a religion?

There are multiple theist religions because different people have different ideas about possible deities. There can only be one atheist religion, so it can be called 'Atheism'

Atheism certainly has the characteristics of a religion. As we have no proof of an existence or non-existence of a God, then Atheism, like Catholicism, is faith based. People also group themselves as this very forum shows and read scripture (Dawkins etc) about their religion.

Some Atheists also try to convince theists of their beliefs so it is also evangelical.

Yep, Atheism is indeed a religion.

This thread is like an echo chamber of idiocy.

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:13pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Actually the thinking that brought us the Spanish Inquisition was the opinion that anyone who disagrees with Rome must die.

Can you tell me where any atheist has stated that those who believes in God must die for holding that belief?

I think Early Christianity (as with most religions) was based on the idea that they had the truth and everyone else was wrong/damned . It took a while. but it got to the Spanish inquisition eventually.
You are exhibiting the same kind of arrogance.

so anyway is your opinion on God as Valid as that of the Theological Scholar Pope Benedict ?

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:15pm

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Reading this thread is like being in an echo chamber of idiocy.

The Blessings of Athei be upon you

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:15pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

I think Early Christianity (as with most religions) was based on the idea that they had the truth and everyone else was wrong/damned . It took a while. but it got to the Spanish inquisition eventually.
You are exhibiting the same kind of arrogance.

so anyway is your opinion on God as Valid as that of the Theological Scholar Pope Benedict ?

Would you like to answer my question?

robindch · 29-05-2012 12:19pm

Dades wrote: »

DuPLeX wrote: »

I didn't say I did not believe that a God exists and I did not say that I did .

Would you like a little help deciding?

Sheesh, Dades, can you stop being so damnably militant and preachy?!

Turtwig · 29-05-2012 12:25pm

Alright, alright!!! I'll admit it, atheism is a religion. Now, pray, proponents of atheism being a religion what am I supposed to do to practice my religion?

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:27pm

Jernal wrote: »

Alright, alright!!! I'll admit it, atheism is a religion. Now, pray, proponents of atheism being a religion what am I supposed to do to practice my religion?

ummmm....
Suspend all of your critical faculties?

oldrnwisr · 29-05-2012 12:27pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

So is your opinion on the existence of God as valid as Pope Benny's ?
This sounds like the kind of "I'm right and your'e wrong" thinking that brought us such delights as the Spanish inquisition in the past..
Could it be ...? R
A religion ?

Perhaps it might be useful for the purposes of having a useful discussion for you to define what you think a religion is, what are its characteristics and how atheism fulfills those characteristics.

It seems to me that so far regarding science and atheism the argument you have been putting forward is that belief is a component of religion and therefore anything which requires belief is therefore a religion. However, this is a fallacious argument.

Statistician wrote: »

There are multiple theist religions because different people have different ideas about possible deities. There can only be one atheist religion, so it can be called 'Atheism'

Atheism certainly has the characteristics of a religion. As we have no proof of an existence or non-existence of a God, then Atheism, like Catholicism, is faith based. People also group themselves as this very forum shows and read scripture (Dawkins etc) about their religion.

Some Atheists also try to convince theists of their beliefs so it is also evangelical.

Yep, Atheism is indeed a religion.

Just like Duplex, you seem to be making a fallacious argument that atheism is a religion, in this case the fallacy of biased sample.

First of all, atheism while being a position regarding belief (as opposed to agnosticism) does not require any faith, unless you're a strong atheist who positively believes that there is no god. I think you'll find however that strong atheists are a minority of all atheists. It doesn't require any faith to lack belief in something.

As for your two other points, the actions of some atheists are not necessarily representative of either a) all atheists or b) atheism. After all I'm sure you wouldn't argue that the number of Christians filling up the prison system is representative of Christianity in general.

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:27pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you like to answer my question?

Can you tell me where any atheist has stated that those who believes in God must die for holding that belief?
No I cannot ,nor did I say that one did. But if the Belief that your opinion is valid and others are not is a good start on that road.
Now
Answer mine ?

Turtwig · 29-05-2012 12:32pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jernal wrote: »

Alright, alright!!! I'll admit it, atheism is a religion. Now, pray, proponents of atheism being a religion what am I supposed to do to practice my religion?

ummmm....
Suspend all of your critical faculties?

Oh why such a short post. Please I don't understand, elaborate.

Mark Hamill · 29-05-2012 12:33pm

Statistician wrote: »

There are multiple theist religions because different people have different ideas about possible deities. There can only be one atheist religion, so it can be called 'Atheism'

Atheism certainly has the characteristics of a religion. As we have no proof of an existence or non-existence of a God, then Atheism, like Catholicism, is faith based. People also group themselves as this very forum shows and read scripture (Dawkins etc) about their religion.

Some Atheists also try to convince theists of their beliefs so it is also evangelical.

Yep, Atheism is indeed a religion.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:36pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

Can you tell me where any atheist has stated that those who believes in God must die for holding that belief?
No I cannot ,nor did I say that one did. But if the Belief that your opinion is valid and others are not is a good start on that road.
Now
Answer mine ?

As I am also a scholar and I have the fancy bits of vellum to prove it (with wax seals and everything). Yes, MY opinion is as valid as Benny's.

- in fact since I am not employed by an organisation whose whole reason for existing is based on the opinions held by Benny and his predecessors', my opinion may actually be more valid in this context as I have no financial stake in toeing a party line.

Let me make this clear - everyone is entitled to hold an opinion - no-one is entitled to use that opinion as justification to torture, murder, abuse those who disagree.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:38pm

Jernal wrote: »

Oh why such a short post. Please I don't understand, elaborate.

Keep that up and you'll be pope in no time. Understanding = BAD. Believing = GOOD.

Sarky · 29-05-2012 12:41pm

The English may have improved but they still make about as much sense as dead one.

Turtwig · 29-05-2012 12:41pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

DuPLeX wrote: »

Can you tell me where any atheist has stated that those who believes in God must die for holding that belief?
No I cannot ,nor did I say that one did. But if the Belief that your opinion is valid and others are not is a good start on that road.
Now
Answer mine ?

As I am also a scholar and I have the fancy bits of vellum to prove it (with wax seals and everything). Yes, MY opinion is as valid as Benny's.

- in fact since I am not employed by an organisation whose whole reason for existing is based on the opinions held by Benny and his predecessors', my opinion may actually be more valid in this context as I have no financial stake in toeing a party line.

Let me make this clear - everyone is entitled to hold an opinion - no-one is entitled to use that opinion as justification to torture, murder, abuse those who disagree.

I'm sorry missus but our religion doesn't allow female scholars let alone the possibility of free thinking ones.

29-05-2012 12:42pm

Jernal wrote: »

I'm sorry missus but our religion doesn't allow female scholars let alone the possibility of free thinking ones.

pfff

alright banna it's up to us - let's set up our own one

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:42pm

Jernal wrote: »

I'm sorry missus but our religion doesn't allow female scholars let alone the possibility of free thinking ones.

S'ok - I'm wearing a headscarf.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:46pm

bluewolf wrote: »

pfff

alright banna it's up to us - let's set up our own one

Yes- goodbye headscarf which made me feel like a member of the House of Windsor about to go on a grouse killing spree!

Bluewolf - Let's make chocolate eating a sacrament!

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:49pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Perhaps it might be useful for the purposes of having a useful discussion for you to define what you think a religion is, what are its characteristics and how atheism fulfills those characteristics.

As the title of this thread is Atheism is a religion Maybe you should define what you think Atheism is and in what ways does it not conform to the structure of a religion ? ..

It seems to me that so far regarding science and atheism the argument you have been putting forward is that belief is a component of religion and therefore anything which requires belief is therefore a religion. However, this is a fallacious argument.

If you think my argument is "Fallacious" why? explain.

First of all, atheism while being a position regarding belief (as opposed to agnosticism) does not require any faith, unless you're a strong atheist who positively believes that there is no god. I think you'll find however that strong atheists are a minority of all atheists. It doesn't require any faith to lack belief in something.
.

I think you'll find that strong Christians are in a minority too .minimum of faith required also... So no religion is not about faith Its more about lazyness.

29-05-2012 12:49pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

As the title of this thread is Atheism is a religion

no it isn't

Delirium · 29-05-2012 12:49pm

The title of the thread is "is atheism a religion?", it's a question not a statement

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 12:51pm

koth wrote: »

The title of the thread is "is atheism a religion?", it's a question not a statement

Not according to his interpretation of the Little Book of Grammar and Punctuation...

Statistician · 29-05-2012 12:52pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Perhaps it might be useful for the purposes of having a useful discussion for you to define what you think a religion is, what are its characteristics and how atheism fulfills those characteristics.

I just looked 'Religion' up in wikipedia, and Atheism seems to tick the boxes. Atheism is certainly a private belief that has a public aspect, as this very forum testifies.

Just like Duplex, you seem to be making a fallacious argument that atheism is a religion, in this case the fallacy of biased sample.

First of all, atheism while being a position regarding belief (as opposed to agnosticism) does not require any faith, unless you're a strong atheist who positively believes that there is no god. I think you'll find however that strong atheists are a minority of all atheists. It doesn't require any faith to lack belief in something.

Faith and belief are closely intertwined. To put it simply, faith is belief without proof. This is what Atheists of all calibres demonstrate.

As for your two other points, the actions of some atheists are not necessarily representative of either a) all atheists or b) atheism. After all I'm sure you wouldn't argue that the number of Christians filling up the prison system is representative of Christianity in general.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. A majority of people in this country would regard themselves Catholic, but not all of them attend Mass.
Do we need Venn diagrams?

seamus · 29-05-2012 12:55pm

Statistician wrote: »

Faith and belief are closely intertwined. To put it simply, faith is belief without proof. This is what Atheists of all calibres demonstrate.

The opposite of "I believe in God" is not, "I believe there is no God". It's "I do not believe in God".

How can having no belief be regarded as a belief?

oldrnwisr · 29-05-2012 12:57pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

As the title of this thread is Atheism is a religion Maybe you should define what you think Atheism is and in what ways does it not conform to the structure of a religion ? ..

Atheism is the lack of belief. It has no central organisation, no holy books, no required practices or beliefs, no position on the continuation of existence after death, none of the characteristics of organised religion. This may explain my position better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk

DuPLeX wrote: »

If you think my argument is "Fallacious" why? explain.

It's called the composition fallacy. You are arguing that because science or atheism or anything else you choose to pick has belief as a component and that religion has belief as a component then anything which entails belief is religious. See example 3 in the link above.

Now, instead of avoiding my question, maybe you would be so kind as to answer it?

DuPLeX wrote: »

I think you'll find that strong Christians are in a minority too .minimum of faith required also... So no religion is not about faith Its more about lazyness.

I'm not certain what you mean by strong Christian other than perhaps a gnostic Christian. All Christians by default have a positive belief in God and so there is no comparable divide in Christianity as there is between weak and strong atheism.

MagicMarker · 29-05-2012 12:58pm

Atheists, by definition, lack faith (in a deity).

I'm not sure why this is so hard for certain people to understand.

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:58pm

bluewolf wrote: »

no it isn't

OK

DuPLeX · 29-05-2012 12:58pm

DuPLeX wrote: »

OK

but it is !

robindch · 29-05-2012 12:58pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Bluewolf - Let's make chocolate eating a sacrament!

Old hat. The Aztecs and Mayans were doing that centuries ago. Well, the high-status members were anyway and that means that wimmin were probably not allowed it, unless permitted by men:

http://www.chocolate.org/

chocolate.org wrote:

Cacao beans were used by the Aztecs to prepare a hot, frothy beverage with stimulant and restorative properties. Chocolate itself was reserved for warriors, nobility and priests. The Aztecs esteemed its reputed ability to confer wisdom and vitality. Taken fermented as a drink, chocolate was also used in religious ceremonies. The sacred concoction was associated with Xochiquetzal, the goddess of fertility. Emperor Montezuma allegedly drank 50 goblets a day. Aztec taxation was levied in cacao beans. 100 cacao beans could buy a slave. 12 cacao beans bought the services of courtesan.

Delirium · 29-05-2012 12:58pm

Statistician wrote: »

I just looked 'Religion' up in wikipedia, and Atheism seems to tick the boxes. Atheism is certainly a private belief that has a public aspect, as this very forum testifies.

From wikipedia:

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

How exactly does atheism meet that description?

robindch · 29-05-2012 12:59pm

seamus wrote: »

How can having no belief be regarded as a belief?

If you don't understand the difference, then the two will look the same.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 1:00pm

robindch wrote: »

Old hat. The Aztecs and Mayans were doing that centuries ago. Well, the high-status members were anyway and I think we can rest assured that this did not include wimmins:

http://archive.fieldmuseum.org/chocolate/eat_intro2.html

Well in our new, better, brighter, religion Mayans and Aztecs will be barred from consuming the chocolate - as will the Olmecs as they are guilty by location.
ALL men shall also be required to wear headscarfs.

Statistician · 29-05-2012 1:02pm

seamus wrote: »

The opposite of "I believe in God" is not, "I believe there is no God". It's "I do not believe in God".

How can having no belief be regarded as a belief?

Please explain the difference between these two statements:
"I believe there is no God" and "I do not believe in God"

I believe there is no milk in my fridge. I do not believe there is any milk in my fridge.

(Of course there is the whole issue of disproving a negative which would make atheism inherently a faith based system)

oldrnwisr · 29-05-2012 1:04pm

Statistician wrote: »

I just looked 'Religion' up in wikipedia, and Atheism seems to tick the boxes. Atheism is certainly a private belief that has a public aspect, as this very forum testifies.

From wikipedia:

"Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values."

How exactly does atheism qualify as any of those? Atheism isn't a belief, private or otherwise.

Statistician wrote: »

Faith and belief are closely intertwined. To put it simply, faith is belief without proof. This is what Atheists of all calibres demonstrate.

Perhaps you could give me an example of something that I as an atheist, or any atheist for that matter, believes without proof (relevant to this discussion obviously).

Statistician wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. A majority of people in this country would regard themselves Catholic, but not all of them attend Mass.
Do we need Venn diagrams?

If Venn diagrams will clarify things for you, fair enough. My point is that in your last post you made two points about the actions of a subset of atheists (i.e. those who read Dawkins and those vocal about atheism) as if these people were representative of all atheists or atheism. They aren't.

shizz · 29-05-2012 1:05pm

Statistician wrote: »

Please explain the difference between these two statements:
"I believe there is no God" and "I do not believe in God"

I believe there is no milk in my fridge. I do not believe there is any milk in my fridge.

(Of course there is the whole issue of disproving a negative which would make atheism inherently a faith based system)

"I believe there is no God" = From the evidence you have shown me I can assert that there is no God to believe in.

"I do not believe in a God" = From the evidence you have provided me, I am not fully convinced that a God exists.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2012 1:05pm

Statistician wrote: »

Please explain the difference between these two statements:
"I believe there is no God" and "I do not believe in God"

I believe there is no milk in my fridge. I do not believe there is any milk in my fridge.

(Of course there is the whole issue of disproving a negative which would make atheism inherently a faith based system)

I do not believe in milk.
I do not believe there is milk in my fridge.

Is Atheism a religion?

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