Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]
Options
Comments
-
-
-
I have no idea what you're debating here. I really don't. Of course it's a dig, wheeled out whenever there's even the sniff of someone asks "eh wut?" about the EU.
As I said you wouldn't, you don't get how the EU or the Commission and that's fair enough, we'll leave it there, unless you can provide a ranking table that shows how important Ireland is.
The only reason I said you were a Euroskeptic is you were throwing it around earlier as a slur along with Europhile. If you hadn't I wouldn't have brought it up so no point crying now!
I'd say you are an Irish Euroskeptic, nothing wrong with that except you were portraying yourself as the voice in the middle. The EEC is 20 years ago now, harking back to the good old days is a bit like reminiscing about DeV.No it was not. You are incorrect, lest anyone thinks differently and believes the comparison google is your friend and you'll see for yourselves. Finland had just come out of the worst depression in the countries modern history which was peaked in the early 90's. One way forward was they devalued their currency, which we can(or they) no longer do. If similar happened to them today they'd be in a lot more trouble. They weren't even within an asses roar of the growth in the Irish economy from the early to mid 90's and they most certainly weren't close to our growth at the introduction at the introduction of the euro. They were in stable growth, not the strong growth witnessed in Ireland at the time. You quite simply cannot compare the two nations.
There'll always be some problem with a comparison so what exactly is your point? Portugal didn't have high growth and got bailed out.Nope. I find it equally fascinating the twists and turns that the more fervent Europhiles will undertake to avoid even a hint that the Euro was to blame at all. But anyhoo... Not me. I've repeatedly stated that successive government fcukups and the tulip mania of ourselves for housing was a massive cause of the boom and subsequent crash. However if interest rates had remained at the level they were in the late 90's, then cheap credit that fueled the huge private debt would have been significantly harder to get. That came with the Euro. It's economics 101, you do not lower interest rates in a heated economy. There is no real debate around that, unless you want to rewrite economics. If you want to broaden it to Spain where their governments keep a far more beady eye, in ways people now say we should have. They were incredibly frugal and were paying off their debts and never went over the limits(nulike every other EU nation inc Germany). They also suffered from the crash in interest rates. They're really fcuked now and one of the biggest ways they could become competitive is to devalue, but...
Yeah, interest rates played a part, how big would be the difference in opinion, Iceland kept high interest rates and it worked out great for them!It seems for some good reasons. In point of fact I voted Yes to Lisbon 1. My thinking being fcukit there's no real going back, in for a penny, in for a euro and the No side were coming out with drivel for the most part. I voted No in Lisbon 2, because it seemed to me my first vote didn't really count, even though it was the "correct" one and that pissed me off. We've never had such an unseemly rush to the polls on any referendum before.
Nice?Indeed. Our governments. For better or worse. Given the stats on competitiveness I referenced above, what the hell are we doing heading for austerity because that may be bettter for the Euro and other countries? We've been here before in another way when the interest rate for the Euro was pegged to other economies who benefited while the same interest rates stood on the pedal and drove us and others into the wall. And one of the things that fueled it from 02 was...
One of the things, hence Greece and Portugal not having property bubbles, they wasted the opportunity of low interest rates a different way. Finland, Germany etc. used it productively, we didn't, not for the want of people telling them. Maybe if we had our property bubble in 1990 like the Finns?SafeSurfer wrote: »The government is getting an extremely easy ride in the fiscal treaty debate.
Michael Martin, the so called leader of the opposition is supporting the government in its call for a yes vote and the resulting €6 billion in additional budget cuts and tax hikes, without asking the government to indicate to the Irish people where these cuts will be made.
The government parties lied to get elected. Remember "Labour's way or
Frankfurt's way" , "Not another cent to the bondholders" "Within 100 days of being elected cancer services will be restored to Sligo General Hospital" , signing pledges on third level fees, promising a reduction in commercial rates, etc etc.
I don not believe them any more. I do not believe in the policies they are pursuing, I do not believe they are acting in the nation's best interests. This treaty as Noonan rightly said would not be passed in any European country only Ireland if put to a popular vote.
Why is that?
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
Where are you getting the €6 Billion from?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59021
Actually I do. Do you? Nice condescending dig again. When your argument fails...As I said you wouldn't, you don't get how the EU or the Commission [works] and that's fair enough, we'll leave it there, unless you can provide a ranking table that shows how important Ireland is.
Yet he's still about and many people would prefer the "good old days" and for good reason in some ways. Not an argument yet again. You're good at this.The only reason I said you were a Euroskeptic is you were throwing it around earlier as a slur along with Europhile. If you hadn't I wouldn't have brought it up so no point crying now! I'd say you are an Irish Euroskeptic, nothing wrong with that except you were portraying yourself as the voice in the middle. The EEC is 20 years ago now, harking back to the good old days is a bit like reminiscing about DeV.
No, what's your point? What has Portugal being bailed out got to do with the debate? In the late 90's Portugal had steady growth and low unemployment with high household debt and a host of other issues at the time of the Euro rollout. My point remains that you can't point to a single EU country in high growth that the Euro didn't fcuk up. Talk of Portugal and bailout is at best a red herring, but more like flailing about looking for an argument you can't win. Fail again.There'll always be some problem with a comparison so what exactly is your point? Portugal didn't have high growth and got bailed out.
Again with the flailing. Your comparison to Iceland is equally as daft and ignorant as those eejits who point to them as a way out for Ireland. Like them you miss how completely and I do mean completely different their situation was. In short their banking section went mad and essentially started printing monopoly money when it suited. They had a tiny economy and their currency was the most overvalued in the western world. So argument fail yet again.Yeah, interest rates played a part, how big would be the difference in opinion, Iceland kept high interest rates and it worked out great for them!
Grand as an argument if you're quoting South Park, in which case it should read as "niiiiice", but it hardly rallies your cause. The two fastest re-votes in the history of this state because it didn't suit were both to do with the EU? Hmmm, the F word looms yet again.Nice?
And how were they able to? One nations "opportunity" is anothers madness. Join the dots.One of the things, hence Greece and Portugal not having property bubbles, they wasted the opportunity of low interest rates a different way.
You're showing a serious ignorance of basic economics here. I dunno how many times I have to spell this out, before breaking out the crayons, but I'll give it one more college try... Finland and Germany weren't in strong growth, so low interest rates were a good thing for them. If wikipedia can make it clearer? For those on mobile:Finland, Germany etc. used it productively, we didn't, not for the want of people telling them.
"The introduction of the euro has decreased the interest rates of most members countries, in particular those with a weak currency. As a consequence the market value of firms from countries which previously had a weak currency has very significantly increased.[63] The countries whose interest rates fell most as a result of the euro are Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and Italy.[64] The effect of such low interest rates made it easier for banks within the countries in which interest rates fell and the countries themselves to borrow significant amounts (above the 3% of GDP budget deficit imposed on the eurozone initially) and increase their public deficit and levels of privately held consumer debt.[65] Following the Late-2000s financial crisis, governments in these countries found it necessary to bail out or nationalise their privately held banks in order to prevent systemic failure of the banking system.[66] This further increased the already high levels of public debt to a level the markets began to consider unsustainable, via increasing government bond interest rates, producing the ongoing European sovereign-debt crisis."
You may note if you squint hard enough through the blinkers that those countries spell out PIIGS. But no... nothing to do with the euro. No that's impossible. Impossible I tells ya.
Spain smacks your argument to the ground. They were more financially diligent on many governmental levels than countries like Germany(or Finland). Not once did the break the EU rules, indeed were paying off debt while keeping their competitiveness and what happened there? Oh yes that's right massive private debt on the coattails of the euro.
TL;DR? Your arguments hold about as much water as a ricepaper colander.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
Actually I do. Do you? Nice condescending dig again. When your argument fails...
Oh can I see this ranking table of countries then? You seem to believe we can have more power than Italy for example.Yet he's still about and many people would prefer the "good old days" and for good reason in some ways. Not an argument yet again. You're good at this.
The EEC is the good old days for granda Wibbs!No, what's your point? What has Portugal being bailed out got to do with the debate? In the late 90's Portugal had steady growth and low unemployment with high household debt and a host of other issues at the time of the Euro rollout. My point remains that you can't point to a single EU country in high growth that the Euro didn't fcuk up. Talk of Portugal and bailout is at best a red herring, but more like flailing about looking for an argument you can't win. Fail again.
Ah right, high growth is your point, not well governed countries like Finland. I'd say poor governance is your common denominator.Again with the flailing. Your comparison to Iceland is equally as daft and ignorant as those eejits who point to them as a way out for Ireland. Like them you miss how completely and I do mean completely different their situation was. In short their banking section went mad and essentially started printing monopoly money when it suited. They had a tiny economy and their currency was the most overvalued in the western world. So argument fail yet again.
High interest rates were part of the reason they went mad. I mean how exactly do you think they got all this money from abroad?Grand as an argument if you're quoting South Park, in which case it should read as "niiiiice", but it hardly rallies your cause. The two fastest re-votes in the history of this state because it didn't suit were both to do with the EU? Hmmm, the F word looms yet again.
So why were you so surprised we voted again? So you had a precedent of a Government asking again but got angry that they asked again. Bit naive Wibbs. I could understand your anger if it was Nice but Lisbon. Extremely naive Wibbs, I'd say childishly innocent.And how were they able to? One nations "opportunity" is anothers madness. Join the dots. You're showing a serious ignorance of basic economics here. I dunno how many times I have to spell this out, before breaking out the crayons, but I'll give it one more college try... Finland and Germany weren't in strong growth, so low interest rates were a good thing for them. If wikipedia can make it clearer? For those on mobile:
You've already admitted we had tools to cool the growth, tax incentives for a start, not doubling Moratgage Interest relief for a start.
To put in perspective I'll quote an old post from me:K-9 wrote:Personally, I believe Bertie telling naysayers to commit suicide, Tax Relief on €1,700 a month Interest for First Time Buyers, Yep, €20,000 a year mortgage interest was tax deductible and encouraged (would be a €Million mortgage), ignoring warnings from the ECB, you know the EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK, Regulators being warned about lending to affordability ratios and asking banks about how much they where lending as far back as 2003, Banks said "Nah, of course we aren't lending too much", Regulator said "OK then", everybody ignoring warnings from as far back as 2002 on the property bubble, "Rent is dead money" mantra, the keeping up with the Jones lifestyle, investors flooding the market with tax incentives, property always goes up, the Irish obsession with property, Govt. and Unions giving income tax cuts for people to afford houses, the I deserve a house mentality, investors in for a quick buck and selling for a quick buck, Estate Agents, nobody bothering to invest in anything not property related, FF, Coalitions, FG/Labour, I could go on.
But YEP, it was mostly down to the Euro.
THE BIGGEST COST of the Euro was the opportunity cost of not using them wisely. We could be a huge R&D base, actually have a smart economy and not be making jokes about it.You may note if you squint hard enough through the blinkers that those countries spell out PIIGS. But no... nothing to do with the euro. No that's impossible. Impossible I tells ya.
I already admitted interest rates played a part in the same post, why the drama llama antics Wibbs?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
0 -
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59021
That is not what I said.Oh can I see this ranking table of countries then? You seem to believe we can have more power than Italy for example.The EEC is the good old days for granda Wibbs!
not quite what I said either.
Spain kills your argument stone dead as it was more fiscally compliant with the EU rules than any other EU country. Never once broke the 3% rule, kept public spending in the black and was actually paying back debt. And yet again you're avoiding the point. If you want to talk about well run Finland I'd suggest you ask some Finns. You might be surprised.Ah right, high growth is your point, not well governed countries like Finland. I'd say poor governance is your common denominator.
Like I said you're happily ignoring how completely different their situation was.High interest rates were part of the reason they went mad. I mean how exactly do you think they got all this money from abroad?
If a dog bites you once you think, meh maybe a one off, if it bites you twice you think vicious dog and you don't let it bite you again. It simply copperfastened my level of WTF.So why were you so surprised we voted again? So you had a precedent of a Government asking again but got angry that they asked again. Bit naive Wibbs. I could understand your anger if it was Nice but Lisbon. Extremely naive Wibbs, I'd say childishly innocent.
Of course. I've never denied this, so that argument falls flat too.You've already admitted we had tools to cool the growth, tax incentives for a start, not doubling Moratgage Interest relief for a start.
and when did this all take place? Pre or post interest rates on the floor?To put in perspective I'll quote an old post from me:
Indeed, yet we have one of the single most competitive and attractive to overseas investment nations on the planet. Today.THE BIGGEST COST of the Euro was the opportunity cost of not using them wisely. We could be a huge R&D base, actually have a smart economy and not be making jokes about it.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement