Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

Dempsey · 24-05-2012 05:11PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18188174

Rangers fans have no faith in administrators Duff & Phelps, according to a supporters' spokesman.

The warnings were there on the day that they were appointed to the club. :rolleyes:

EDIT

Eirebear wrote: »

I have no proof of that, of course..."that doesn't mean it didn't happen...."

Taking things at face value seems to be Rangers strong point, look where its taken ye.

Jelle1880 · 24-05-2012 06:32PM

Do you lot just have a Word document with things in it like 'Heads buried in sand', and then just randomly copy paste from it ?

Because I have yet to see any Rangers fan these days who still believes everything is a-ok.

Or do we only 'bury our heads YADDA YADDA YADDA' when we don't agree with you ?

bobbysands81 · 24-05-2012 07:35PM

A query regarding the EBTs.

If they really were discretionary loans paid to staff then why (when the club is about to go down the pan) have none of the 111 people (who include such proud Rangers men as John Greig, Souness, Barry Ferguson, Nacho Novo) offered to pay these 'loans' back?

RoryMac · 24-05-2012 08:20PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Do you lot just have a Word document with things in it like 'Heads buried in sand', and then just randomly copy paste from it ?

Because I have yet to see any Rangers fan these days who still believes everything is a-ok.
Or do we only 'bury our heads YADDA YADDA YADDA' when we don't agree with you ?

I think some Celtic fans(myself included) find it hard to understand why Rangers fans haven't put more pressure on the parties involved to find the truth or to have them release control of the club. There has been little in the way of a show of strength from the Rangers fans and most of the questions in relation to owners and their plans for Rangers have come from Celtic fans and blogs.

These issues have been known for years now and for the early part of that Celtic fans posing the questions have been dismissed as having an unfounded agenda, I'd be the first to admit there is an obvious agenda from these people but the facts are they have pushed this story when nobody else was interested.

I'm open to correction on the above but I haven't come across any similar type of Rangers sites etc that have been pushing for the truth on these issues, maybe they do exist?? On here there does seem to be a tendency from Rangers fans to dismiss every news story as something already known or to seize on minor detail to dismiss the story rather than discussing the general situation and where it is heading.

bobmalooka · 24-05-2012 08:42PM

Exactly, I dont understand the resistance to discussing the matters and the obsession with trying to discredit everyone pushing the Rangers story.

The best example was when news of the ticketus deal broke, a few fans on here really scrutinised the tiny details of what was being reported rather than scrutinise what was actually happening.

Their energy would have been better focused into putting pressure on the people at the helm, 3 months ago it was pointed out here that the actions of Duff and Phelps were not consistent with saving the club. All the rangers fans argued against it, dug up loads of evidence to suggest D&P were legit and now with about a week to go are asking questions.

The sheer refusal to agree or listen with anyone 'celtic minded' has taken away rangers fans ability to save their club themselves......and they'll argue im wrong till the day the club dies.

Jelle1880 · 24-05-2012 09:06PM

RoryMac wrote: »

I think some Celtic fans(myself included) find it hard to understand why Rangers fans haven't put more pressure on the parties involved to find the truth or to have them release control of the club. There has been little in the way of a show of strength from the Rangers fans and most of the questions in relation to owners and their plans for Rangers have come from Celtic fans and blogs.

These issues have been known for years now and for the early part of that Celtic fans posing the questions have been dismissed as having an unfounded agenda, I'd be the first to admit there is an obvious agenda from these people but the facts are they have pushed this story when nobody else was interested.

I'm open to correction on the above but I haven't come across any similar type of Rangers sites etc that have been pushing for the truth on these issues, maybe they do exist?? On here there does seem to be a tendency from Rangers fans to dismiss every news story as something already known or to seize on minor detail to dismiss the story rather than discussing the general situation and where it is heading.

No idea why it didn't happen before, but the reason for silence from the fans at this point is clear:

Anything that disrupts the CVA process will most likely result in the end of the club.

If you would read some Rangers forums you'd see that what happened with Whyte means that absolutely nobody is trusted anymore, it's extremely black and white now.

The administrators, Green, the BBC, RTC blog,... are all seen as suspicious at best.

I've never refused to discuss these issues with anyone here, but I've been getting fed up with some of the Celtic fans who keep using the same things over and over again (as I said, the 'heads buried in the sand' line trotted out at random, whenever a Rangers fan disagrees with Celtic fans).

The fact that a lot of the information of RTC, Celtic fans, Celtic-minded people in general,... has been proven true doesn't mean that we should just accept everything else they say without proof, right ?

Take those side letters for example.
We're constantly being told 'they exist'.
Should I just accept they exist, because the people that say they have them were right on certain points in the past ?
Or should I stay skeptic until someone actually shows them ?

I choose the latter, and I don't see any problem with that.

RoryMac · 24-05-2012 09:29PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

No idea why it didn't happen before, but the reason for silence from the fans at this point is clear:

Anything that disrupts the CVA process will most likely result in the end of the club.

If you would read some Rangers forums you'd see that what happened with Whyte means that absolutely nobody is trusted anymore, it's extremely black and white now.

As I said I was open to correction on that, all I have to go on is News Now Rangers and the blogs/articles I see there which don't seem to be discussing the issues in any great detail.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

The administrators, Green, the BBC, RTC blog,... are all seen as suspicious at best.

I've never refused to discuss these issues with anyone here, but I've been getting fed up with some of the Celtic fans who keep using the same things over and over again (as I said, the 'heads buried in the sand' line trotted out at random, whenever a Rangers fan disagrees with Celtic fans).

They may be suspicious but they've got a lot of things right and the RTC for instance have been predicting for a long time that the outcome of this situation would be a Newco way before anyone thought that was possible.

That of course doesn't mean it's always right but it is without doubt one of the most reliable sources of information in the proceedings, no matter what their agenda is.

Respect where it's due you have been on here every time news has broken be it good or bad.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

The fact that a lot of the information of RTC, Celtic fans, Celtic-minded people in general,... has been proven true doesn't mean that we should just accept everything else they say without proof, right ?

Take those side letters for example.
We're constantly being told 'they exist'.
Should I just accept they exist, because the people that say they have them were right on certain points in the past ?
Or should I stay skeptic until someone actually shows them ?

I choose the latter, and I don't see any problem with that.

Again of course you or anyone else shouldn't take everything said as being the truth but in the case of last nights program where the BBC named a lot of players who benefited from EBT's and had side letters you have to take into account that the BBC would have cleared all of this info with lawyers prior to airing and they name some wealthy and influential people, maybe I'm naive but in cases like this I tend to believe they have enough info to back up their claims.

Jelle1880 · 24-05-2012 09:33PM

That's also why I haven't flatly said the BBC is at it, you can't make those claims without backing them up.

And a Celtic fan I know told me that, in his opinion, the BBC haven't shown these letters because they are awaiting the BTC verdict, which may very well be true.

But I hate journalism like that, it's telling half stories, making claims and then not backing them up.

RoryMac · 24-05-2012 09:48PM

It could well be that the documents they have or saw a part of an ongoing investigation so could not be shown, i have no idea but i'd guess the BBC's lawyers are happy they have their facts straight. That doesn't mean whatever that investigation is finds there was anything wrong of course but it doesn't look good.

It seems everyone is waiting for the findings of the BTC and until then we'll have to live off the scraps of the story

Savage Tyrant · 24-05-2012 09:51PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's also why I haven't flatly said the BBC is at it, you can't make those claims without backing them up.

And a Celtic fan I know told me that, in his opinion, the BBC haven't shown these letters because they are awaiting the BTC verdict, which may very well be true.

But I hate journalism like that, it's telling half stories, making claims and then not backing them up.

Surely the BTC hinges on the existence of these side letters though?
I was under the assumption that if the BBC had seen them, they would also have been seen by the relevant authorities?

Savage Tyrant · 24-05-2012 09:53PM

RoryMac wrote: »

It seems everyone is waiting for the findings of the BTC and until then we'll have to live off the scraps of the story

Is there any indication at all of when that would be?

Pompey Magnus · 24-05-2012 10:09PM

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Surely the BTC hinges on the existence of these side letters though?

The judges in the BTC won't need any smoking gun in order to find Rangers guilty as it is a civil case and not criminal, all the judges have to do is to decide it is more likely than not that Rangers were involved in something dodgy.

RoryMac · 24-05-2012 10:09PM

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Is there any indication at all of when that would be?

Was due in March so no idea what the hold up is, as far as I know it was an independent board hearing the appeal so don't think it could be delayed due to the current ownership issue but it seems strange that it has been delayed so long.

Maybe Rangers will win it!! :eek:

bobbysands81 · 24-05-2012 10:48PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

A query regarding the EBTs.

If they really were discretionary loans paid to staff then why (when the club is about to go down the pan) have none of the 111 people (who include such proud Rangers men as John Greig, Souness, Barry Ferguson, Nacho Novo) offered to pay these 'loans' back?

Seriously, is no pressure being put on these ex-players to repay these loans given that the club hasn't a penny to rub together???

If not, why not?

Jelle1880 · 24-05-2012 11:15PM

Don't know, but what good would that do ?

Savage Tyrant · 24-05-2012 11:21PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Don't know, but what good would that do ?

What good would the repayment of £47 odd million in "loans" be to a club so heavily in debt?

Jelle1880 · 24-05-2012 11:36PM

I meant in the bigger scheme, it's not like this will make the big tax case go away, will it ?

ColeTrain · 24-05-2012 11:38PM

When is the big case coming exactly? We've been waiting a while now :mad:

lubo_moravcik · 25-05-2012 03:05AM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Don't know, but what good would that do ?

Did you buy a black and red scarf? A rosette?? Donate to The Fighting Fund???

_________

“The view that the SPL took was that there was sufficient evidence to indicate that the way that Rangers had been paying their players was via a dual method, the payroll and EBTs, so there was a case to answer for,” says David Roberts, of the legal firm, Olswang, that represented Bill Miller during his bid for the Ibrox side and held discussions with the SPL. “What Duff & Phelps said to us was that there may be some reticence pushing the investigation forward because a beneficiary of the EBT payments [Campbell Ogilvie] was now on the SFA board, but we saw no evidence of that. My genuine belief was that this was an issue that gave rise to a potential breach of the rules and the SPL were discharging their governing body duties by looking at it. It may also breach the SFA rules as well. It was something being taken very seriously by the authorities.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile...de28763ff332d8

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 08:00AM

lubo_moravcik wrote: »

Did you buy a black and red scarf? A rosette?? Donate to The Fighting Fund???

_________

“The view that the SPL took was that there was sufficient evidence to indicate that the way that Rangers had been paying their players was via a dual method, the payroll and EBTs, so there was a case to answer for,” says David Roberts, of the legal firm, Olswang, that represented Bill Miller during his bid for the Ibrox side and held discussions with the SPL. “What Duff & Phelps said to us was that there may be some reticence pushing the investigation forward because a beneficiary of the EBT payments [Campbell Ogilvie] was now on the SFA board, but we saw no evidence of that. My genuine belief was that this was an issue that gave rise to a potential breach of the rules and the SPL were discharging their governing body duties by looking at it. It may also breach the SFA rules as well. It was something being taken very seriously by the authorities.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile...de28763ff332d8

I did donate to RFFF, and... ?

Link doesn't work btw.

lubo_moravcik · 25-05-2012 09:47AM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

lubo_moravcik wrote: »

Did you buy a black and red scarf? A rosette?? Donate to The Fighting Fund???

_________

“The view that the SPL took was that there was sufficient evidence to indicate that the way that Rangers had been paying their players was via a dual method, the payroll and EBTs, so there was a case to answer for,” says David Roberts, of the legal firm, Olswang, that represented Bill Miller during his bid for the Ibrox side and held discussions with the SPL. “What Duff & Phelps said to us was that there may be some reticence pushing the investigation forward because a beneficiary of the EBT payments [Campbell Ogilvie] was now on the SFA board, but we saw no evidence of that. My genuine belief was that this was an issue that gave rise to a potential breach of the rules and the SPL were discharging their governing body duties by looking at it. It may also breach the SFA rules as well. It was something being taken very seriously by the authorities.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile...de28763ff332d8

I did donate to RFFF, and... ?

Link doesn't work btw.

If you're asking "what good would it do?" in relation to players being chased up for monies borrowed, if that's the case what good would the rfff do as it is (currently £500,000+) small change in comparison.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/sport/football/caught-on-camera-contract-issues-at-heart-of-tax-case.17694754?_=619b7f2c7440776e5362a04735de28763ff332d8

Dempsey · 25-05-2012 03:59PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18211947

Rangers have asked the Court of Session to overturn a year-long transfer ban imposed on the club by the Scottish Football Association.

Surely after all Sion went through, every QC in the land knows that CAS is your next stop not the Court of Session. Even if you win, any player registration over the age of 18 will still be considered invalid by the SFA because they will only adhere to a ruling made by CAS

EDIT

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7778032/HMRC-fail-in-rule-challenge

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs' attempt to have the Football Creditors' rule declared unlawful has been dismissed by the High Court.

Could HMRC be stalling on the BTC because of what they are trying to do down in Engerland? They can appeal this decision

Eirebear · 25-05-2012 04:25PM

Dempsey wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18211947

Rangers have asked the Court of Session to overturn a year-long transfer ban imposed on the club by the Scottish Football Association.

Surely after all Sion went through, every QC in the land knows that CAS is your next stop not the Court of Session. Even if you win, any player registration over the age of 18 will still be considered invalid by the SFA because they will only adhere to a ruling made by CAS

EDIT

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7778032/HMRC-fail-in-rule-challenge

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs' attempt to have the Football Creditors' rule declared unlawful has been dismissed by the High Court.

Could HMRC be stalling on the BTC because of what they are trying to do down in Engerland? They can appeal this decision

It certainly seems a strange move given the clubs already precarious position. The last thing we need is further punishments coming from irrational etc.

As for hmrc, I'm not sure how it links, but given that our case is widely thought of as
a test case before they take on the epl I wouldn't be surprised if there is a link.

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 06:52PM

Apparently the IPA will start an investigation into Duff and Phelps.

bobmalooka · 25-05-2012 07:21PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Apparently the IPA will start an investigation into Duff and Phelps.

should have happened months ago, they are not acting in your interests.

Love when i googled it first hit was a ranersmedia thread blaming celtic,the bbc and that the head of the IPA has an irish sounding name

never mind the actual evidence

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 07:28PM

Erm, of course they're not acting in our interests, that's the whole idea behind administrators: They work for the creditors.

bobmalooka · 25-05-2012 07:44PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Erm, of course they're not acting in our interests, that's the whole idea behind administrators: They work for the creditors.

your right very very badly worded. what i meant is that if they acted quickly and correctly in the manner an administrator should then ye would be closer to a resolution and the road to recovery would be set in place.

as it stands their 'irregular' approach to administration seems to have caused ye plenty of harm

Jelle1880 · 25-05-2012 07:48PM

I don't think so, it's been clear that they had valid reasons to keep rejecting TBK's bid, since it was never close to what was needed.

I also think they managed to get a CVA made in a decent time-frame (if it's accepted, that is).

It's their links with Whyte which concern me most.

All in all an investigation into them is a good thing, you have to question the timing again though.

bobmalooka · 25-05-2012 08:19PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I don't think so, it's been clear that they had valid reasons to keep rejecting TBK's bid, since it was never close to what was needed.

I also think they managed to get a CVA made in a decent time-frame (if it's accepted, that is).

It's their links with Whyte which concern me most.

All in all an investigation into them is a good thing, you have to question the timing again though.

The timing wont affect anything, the proposed CVA will be rejected as liquidating the club is almost certain to be a better deal for the creditors. (according to D&P's valuations)

your right to be worried about their links with whyte cos he is well positioned to claim the spoils in the event of liquidation.

The idea that the BBC are trying to sink ye is laughable, they have consistently been shining the torch on the people who are going to bury Rangers.

Leiva · 25-05-2012 09:20PM

Poor oul Darlington FC today have to start over again four leagues down :eek:

Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

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