I can't believe there are still Northern Irish people like this.

cesc77 wrote: »

I dont mean to be patronising,Jackie boy but believe me I could if I wanted to.

You dived into a conversation there without reading the full thread

I dont give a damn what countries people decide to play for.What i do give a damn about is fcking bigots.

I am not one (agnostic) but calm the feck down and stop watching 12s movies.

If you would like a chat about each of the bloody sentences I wrote I will gladly speak slowly to you.......

Now read back through the thread and give me a coherent response argument.

To be fair the poster is right. There is no "Northern Ireland" Olympic team. Athletes born in the 06 choose to represent Ireland or Britain.

true wrote: »

fixed that for you. Thats what the passports say.

Team GB or Ireland.

Right well to be slightly controversial...as one who used to be a regular on OWC (havent read it much the last year or 2) and have followed Norn Iron through thick and much thin over the last 10-15 years.

OWC itself - believe it or not was set up by some of the more "progressive" NI fans and is as much a cold house for the really hard old-school loyalist support as it is to trolls who want to rile. It was OWC who set up initiatives such as Sea of Green (which sickened old-school support whose thought process was something along the lines of "green is for taigs"), and continues to provide a forum for debate on anthems, emblems, and progressing the Football for All program.

The Football for All policy is a big part of the reason why NI football is a far, far different animal to the Windsor Park atmosphere in 93.

I would be genuinely surprised if anyone on OWC condoned the extreme vitriol (threats of violence etc) that came to James McClean from some quarters - but noone should be surprised if supporters arent overly impressed if a promising young player who has turned out at various school and underage levels turns round and says he never wanted to play for them. I'm all for choice, if a player doesnt want to play for NI then don't play - but don't take a squad place through the youth system that then denies a player who does want to play for NI.

OWC other sports (even GAA)...an attempt at irony at worst. I cant access now as its become a paid part of the site, but there used to be some quite in-depth GAA discussion.

OWC threads where pubs etc are outed as being anti-NI - absolutely. The crux of OWC is that there are a huge majority of followers of NI who are of a moderate disposition (but pro NI mindset by definition) who are busting balls to change opinions, yet are continuing to be tarred as a group by a society at large who think of NI and its whole support as being the uber loyalist, widespread vocal sectarianism crowd that was in the Windsor that night in 93, and for many years before that, and for a few years after. So yes it does offend me that pubs in mixed areas continue to discriminate against me if I wear an NI top, yet in some cases would allow an RoI top or GAA jersey.

I'm a moderate, but of a unionist mindset and background - but I've more Catholic friends than Protestant, I'm engaged to a Catholic from Dublin, but I like that NI is my wee country, and I want to be able to be proud to follow my team and wear my shirt in a mixed pub in NI without being seen as a bigot. I've even worn an NI scarf around Dublin - not to rub people up the wrong way, but because it was quite cold. I'll happily chat football with RoI supporting NI and RoI workmates and can happily have the piss taken out of me about us currently being dire, and I'll gladly return the favour when yous get chinned in the Euros. That is progress - but I know that because of the NI "situation" any part of my conversation could be construed by someone who is looking to be offended as being bigoted /sectarian etc etc, when in fact its a bit of football rivalry and banter between friends.

On Neil Lennon - that night (which was incidentally my first NI match) was in my opinion a watershed moment for the NI support. Any halfwit with a 20p and access to a phonebox can make a deaththreat via the Belfast Telegraph, yet the whole NI support was again tarred as bigots. That night was (I believe) the lowest home attendance at an NI match in memory, and it was after that that support galvanised through OWC and attracted a new and different crowd shortly afterwards with a different atmosphere, to replace the old crowd who were put off because singing Billy Boys was no longer socially acceptable. The news reports of that night very rarely mention the 10 mins before and after the game when the whole ground stayed in chanting One Neil Lennon.

For example when I travelled to the Faroes last year for a qualifier there were a couple of old school "fans" present - one of whom shouted "No Surrender" during the anthems and was promptly told to f*ck up by about 30 others, and another who questioned Niall McGinns place on the team due to his club affiliation - and ended up getting gubbed for his trouble.

Admittedly there definitely are some (quite a few at some matches) dicks who will go for the old party tunes - I believe that a good few went to the Aviva matches but that was because they wanted to stick one up at ye's. The rest of us (the significant silent majority) stayed at home and were embarassed by the whole lot. You wont find much support for that behaviour on OWC, unless I'm much mistaken. And you won't find it at home matches either, as the majority are there and the few remaining dicks dont even try anything because they know they'll be drowned out.

I'd say there would definitely be opinions on OWC that would put boards.ie noses out of joint - by definition its a Northern Ireland football team forum, they like that Northern Ireland exists which many here struggle to come to terms with (which is a different topic) which is something NI society and the IFA are trying to and will continue to try to come to terms with - there is a feeling of injustice on OWC because there has been huge change, yet perceptions remain the same. Changes of the last remaining divisive symbols (flag, anthem) are continually being debated on forums like OWC - and there is a diverse spectrum of opinion on it, just as there is a diverse spectrum of opinion on everything else in NI.

Anyway thats my tuppence. There will always be a political dimension to an NI football team, by definition. I'd just like it if being proud to be a Northern Irishman didn't immediately cause me to be labelled a bigot by default. That would be progress.

aquascrotum, I'm not quoting your post because it is long. You made a lot of fair and valid points. I noticed you felt that mixed pubs discriminate against you when you wear an NI top.
In my opinion everyone who wears an NI top is making some type of political statement whereas someone wearing a ROI top may not be.
When I see a NI top I am aware that they may not be a bitter loyalist but I can be 99% sure that they are a unionist/partitionist and someone I want to steer clear of in a pub.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

aquascrotum, I'm not quoting your post because it is long. You made a lot of fair and valid points. I noticed you felt that mixed pubs discriminate against you when you wear an NI top.
In my opinion everyone who wears an NI top is making some type of political statement whereas someone wearing a ROI top may not be.
When I see a NI top I am aware that they may not be a bitter loyalist but I can be 99% sure that they are a unionist/partitionist and someone I want to steer clear of in a pub.

So wearing an NI top in Northern Ireland is political, but wearing an RoI top in Northern Ireland isn't? You don't see the irony or inconsistency in that? The main OWC gripe is this inconsistency - mixed pubs viewing an NI top as political but a GAA top (which is just as polarised in NI) as acceptable. Either allow all or ban all to kill the argument.

Kind of sums the whole thing up as per my original post. There are a majority of NI supporters who want to do just that - support their team, without making a political point. Instead if you saw me in the Bot in Belfast you'd think "bigot".

So who has the problem? Given the title of this thread, who is it that hasn't really moved on?

aquascrotum wrote: »

So wearing an NI top in Northern Ireland is political, but wearing an RoI top in Northern Ireland isn't? You don't see the irony or inconsistency in that? The main OWC gripe is this inconsistency - mixed pubs viewing an NI top as political but a GAA top (which is just as polarised in NI) as acceptable. Either allow all or ban all to kill the argument.

Kind of sums the whole thing up as per my original post. There are a majority of NI supporters who want to do just that - support their team, without making a political point. Instead if you saw me in the Bot in Belfast you'd think "bigot".

So who has the problem? Given the title of this thread, who is it that hasn't really moved on?

I chose to support the ROI because they are called Ireland and represent more of Ireland than the NI team does. Nonetheless, it irks me that the FAI only represent the Island of Ireland when it suits them.

When you choose to support NI you are choosing to accept a sectarian partition. In many cases this is not because the supporter is sectarian but they are making a choice which entrenches the divide.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Passports for all Irish citizens are issued by the Dail government i.e. the Republic regardless of which side of the border you reside on.

Dáil Éireann is the government of Ireland. "The republic of Ireland" is a description not a title. It is also a name FIFA gave the FAI representative team. There was a dispute with Northern Ireland over who should be called Ireland. Ireland is the internationally recognised name of the 26 counties (actually we have 34 counties, this is to be reduced).

Anyway back to the point Ireland issued my passport. The united kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland issued Passports to those of a unionist persuasion in Northern Ireland!

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

When you choose to support NI you are choosing to accept a sectarian partition. In many cases this is not because the supporter is sectarian but they are making a choice which entrenches the divide.

Generations ago it was a sectarian divide. To someone born today it is simply the status quo.

I am not a unionist because I am anti Irish - I am a unionist (if only marginally arsed about it) partly because of the background into which I was born and mostly because that is the situation that exists currently and I have no overriding fears or desires to change it that would make my life any better.

Am not sure what vintage you are, but if your older than me then perhaps we're living proof that NI is indeed moving on. I find everything about your classification of me and my support for NI as sectarian as pretty distasteful, and frankly outdated.

true wrote: »

Its ironic that some of those wearing the RoI top - whither it be in Belfast or in Glasgow - get their money from the UK government, then support the team and fly the flag of a different country.

I'm sorry but that is a nothing comment! Plenty of people throughout the UK receive benefits and don't support the four home nations. Why single out Irish people living in Northern Ireland?

true wrote: »

I know more than a few Catholics in N. I. who have UK passports. Maybe its the usual thing worldwide to have the passport of the government which you pay your taxes to and which in return provides the social services etc of the jurisdiction in question.

Of course I know people there have the choice to get the other passport either, and no harm in that.

Are Catholics not allowed to be unionists? Do they not pay taxes to entitle them to equal British or Irish status?

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If I know that someone is a unionist and I am in a pub (where drunk words are aplenty) I would avoid them to keep myself safe.

Holy god. Don't know where to start with that. Must go put my taig-beater back in its box.

All them bad pradestants and all that. Would ye cop on man!

true wrote: »

They are and many - I would say about a third - of Catholics in N. Ireland wish to stay in the UK.

Even here in the republic there are more than a few who realise we are not capable of governing ourselves. Even Gay Byrne, arguably Irelands most famous media person, suggested we hand the country back to the Queen with a note of apology!

So why distinguish them from unionists? Surely unionism is now a political view and not a social status/religously motivated opinion! There are thousands of unionists in Ireland and about 70% of Northern Ireland are currently unionist!