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Intelligent voting

124

Comments

  • #92
    RussellTuring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 866 ✭✭✭RussellTuring


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    This is one of the biggest falacies that the No side are peddling.

    Leaving aside the bank debt, there is a €15 billion gap between what we take in, and what we spend. 40% of that is spent of social welfare. 35% is spent on Health. The remaining 25% is general stuff like wages and pensions for politicians, civil servants, etc, running costs of government buildings, and so on.

    So even if all politicians took a 95% cut to all pensions and wages in the morning, that would still amount to less than 25% of the day-to-day running costs of the State.

    What's telling about the above stats is that if Ireland vote to reject the Treaty, the govt will start cutting the areas of biggest spend, i.e. Social Welafe and Health. Is that really what you want?

    As somebody else mentioned, the fact that they get paid so much while claiming to represent the public is what annoys most people. This means that they are never going to be truly representative of their constituents, although I still don't think they would be even if they were paid far less, i.e. what most of us live on. It's not just their high salaries, pensions and various benefits; it's the fact that they don't have to face the same realities as most of us.

    Your last point is also typical of this superior attitude held by people once they're given power. The fact that they may be capable of punishing us for voting no doesn't mean voting yes is right.


  • #93
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    RussellTuring wrote: »
    As somebody else mentioned, the fact that they get paid so much while claiming to represent the public is what annoys most people. This means that they are never going to be truly representative of their constituents, although I still don't think they would be even if they were paid far less, i.e. what most of us live on. It's not just their high salaries, pensions and various benefits; it's the fact that they don't have to face the same realities as most of us.
    .

    Of course, the flip side to all this populist hurf-durfing about politicians being paid too much is that even if the took the salary down to the minimum wage it wouldn't fix this problem of "they're not like us".

    You put the remuneration down to minimum wage and the only people who are going to do a job like that are people who are already rich.
    Well done jackasses, you just made the problem worse.


  • #94
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    RussellTuring wrote: »
    As somebody else mentioned, the fact that they get paid so much while claiming to represent the public is what annoys most people. This means that they are never going to be truly representative of their constituents, although I still don't think they would be even if they were paid far less, i.e. what most of us live on. It's not just their high salaries, pensions and various benefits; it's the fact that they don't have to face the same realities as most of us.

    A fair point, but it's not germane to the discussion, and therefore should not be used as a reason to vote no.
    RussellTuring wrote: »
    Your last point is also typical of this superior attitude held by people once they're given power. The fact that they may be capable of punishing us for voting no doesn't mean voting yes is right.

    It's not a punishment, it's the reality of what will need to be done if we reject the Treaty.


  • #95
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    Dravokivich wrote: »



    Not understanding doesn't have to mean the vote is ignorant. If someone doesn't understand what they are voting on, then I'd see it as an issue with the level of information provided and how it's presented. Voting No is more than valid in that instance and is well worth getting off the sofa for.

    no its not, thats ridiculous. voting no on something because you dont understand it? how does that make any sense...


  • #96
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    no its not, thats ridiculous. voting no on something because you dont understand it? how does that make any sense...

    You reject something when its reason or purpose isnt made clear to you. Thats not ridiculous, its just as valid a reason as voting no because you reject its terms.


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  • #97
    Peanut2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Peanut2011


    kneemos wrote: »
    Should people be made to give a coherent and valid reason for voting yes or no in the coming election.Some people seem to have the most obscure reasons for voting.


    I thought Ireland being democratic country, one is free to vote or not to vote for any reason they want to!

    Isn't that what democracy is all about??


  • #98
    kermit_the_dog
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭kermit_the_dog


    im voting NO , as i watch the various developments around europe on a weekly basis , i realise that ireland is pretty irellevant in the grand scheme of things , nothing crystalised this more for me than last weekends G8 summit , when the main focus of the summit is the euro and the most powerfull man in the world sees fit to prioritise its possition , you know two things , first that little ireland will have no real say in whatever final descision is made and secondly that what way we vote is at worst irrelevant and at best PR window dressing

    at this stage of the crisis , it will take more than illustrated enthusiasm for the european project by way of an irish YES to save the single currency , as such i think it would be a mistake to support anything which is unclear that this stage , we do not want to find ourselves having signed up to something which later transpires to have been something altogether different and which leaves us in a much weakened possition from a soverign POV , the goverment wont postpone the referendum for fear of loosing face but no such vanity afflicts the rest of us

    the sensible thing to do is to vote NO , europe and the world have so many increasing problems , the result will barely raise a shrug of the shoulders in the real corridors of power throughout the world


  • #99
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    I thought Ireland being democratic country, one is free to vote or not to vote for any reason they want to!

    Isn't that what democracy is all about??
    Not if you go back to the earliest democracy's. They didn't make ignorant decisions and all citizens where actively involved in the government.


  • #100
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    You reject something when its reason or purpose isnt made clear to you. Thats not ridiculous, its just as valid a reason as voting no because you reject its terms.

    what if you didnt understand, and you voted no, and then you realise by voting no it would have negatice implications for you, you'd feel pretty stupid, people in ireland feel they have to vote on everything, thats half the problem, leave voting to people bothered to understand


  • #101
    kermit_the_dog
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭kermit_the_dog


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    what if you didnt understand, and you voted no, and then you realise by voting no it would have negatice implications for you, you'd feel pretty stupid, people in ireland feel they have to vote on everything, thats half the problem, leave voting to people bothered to understand

    the exact same arguement can be made for voting NO , if you dont understand , you might feel silly afterwards were it to have negative consequences

    weak arguement , condescending too


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  • #102
    Plazaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Plazaman


    I'm only voting YES so I can finish my sentence* on the ballot paper to reflect my intense hatred at shower of imbeciles that are running this country into the ground and haven't a clue of how to even try to fix the economy as witnessed by Rabbitte the muppet during the week.



    * terday, all my money seemed not that far away ♫ ♪


  • #103
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Peanut2011 wrote: »
    I thought Ireland being democratic country, one is free to vote or not to vote for any reason they want to!

    Isn't that what democracy is all about??

    For a reason yes. Not going to the polling station because they fancy a natter.


  • #104
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    kermit_the_dog wrote: »
    the exact same arguement can be made for voting NO , if you dont understand , you might feel silly afterwards were it to have negative consequences

    weak arguement , condescending too

    thus abstain from voting, i'm not suggesting just vote yes, your vote will do nothing more than distort the result that should be based on competent and rational voting, not foolish disregard for the state and voting for the craic


  • #105
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    You reject something when its reason or purpose isnt made clear to you.

    Heaven fucking forbid people actually take it upon themselves to figure this stuff out, though.

    That's just madness!


  • #106
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    thus abstain from voting, i'm not suggesting just vote yes, your vote will do nothing more than distort the result that should be based on competent and rational voting, not foolish disregard for the state and voting for the craic
    If a majority of the voting population doesn't vote though I think it somewhat invalidates the outcome because it's not representing the people it's only representing a small minority of the people. If the outcome of the vote doesn't work out down the road the majority of people can just turn around and say we didn't ask for this.


  • #107
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    ScumLord wrote: »
    If a majority of the voting population doesn't vote though I think it somewhat invalidates the outcome because it's not representing the people it's only representing a small minority of the people. If the outcome of the vote doesn't work out down the road the majority of people can just turn around and say we didn't ask for this.

    whats the point in voting if your not voting for the topic. spoile your vote dont us it in the wrong way, making a mockery of the voting system


  • #108
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    what if you didnt understand, and you voted no, and then you realise by voting no it would have negatice implications for you, you'd feel pretty stupid, people in ireland feel they have to vote on everything, thats half the problem, leave voting to people bothered to understand

    What if you didnt understand and you voted yes which had a negative effect ? What if you didnt understand and didnt vote and the outcome had a negative effect ? Its all the same bloody thing, each person has a right to vote and nobody else can tell them which way to vote. So any reason you use to justify your vote is valid because there's always gonna be someone who disagrees with it and there can never be anyone who can disregard your vote.


  • #109
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    What if you didnt understand and you voted yes which had a negative effect ? What if you didnt understand and didnt vote and the outcome had a negative effect ? Its all the same bloody thing, each person has a right to vote and nobody else can tell them which way to vote. So any reason you use to justify your vote is valid because there's always gonna be someone who disagrees with it and there can never be anyone who can disregard your vote.

    if you dont understand full stop you shouldnt vote, of course we all have a right vote, i agree with that, i disagree with people using it stupidly, and voting either yes or no based on NOT UNDERSTANDING what you are voting for is nothing short of utter stupidity and not really justifiable by any means


  • #110
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Heaven fucking forbid people actually take it upon themselves to figure this stuff out, though.

    That's just madness!

    If the government is advocating a yes vote and feels its necessary for the protection of the state then they should be educating people. Plenty of people do figure things out for themselves but if your in a position to say something is this important and then say "let people figure it out for themselves" to be honest you really have no business in a position to be running a country.

    Likewise anyone who thinks someone else should not be voting because they disagree with their reason for voting or the vote they cast really do not understand the foundation which this state is built upon. If everyone can vote, then everyone can vote which ever the hell way they want for whatever reason they want. Welcome to democracy !!


  • #111
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    if you dont understand full stop you shouldnt vote, of course we all have a right vote, i agree with that, i disagree with people using it stupidly, and voting either yes or no based on NOT UNDERSTANDING what you are voting for is nothing short of utter stupidity and not really justifiable by any means

    Because no changes can be made if its a no vote thats why it would be rejected by someone who doesnt understand it.

    You dont stand back and reject your right to vote on something because you think you have no right to vote on it if you dont understand it. Thats what would be utterly stupid. I dont understand this let others make the decision for me rather than saying I think no changes should be made until this all becomes clearer and voting accordingly.


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  • #112
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    If the government is advocating a yes vote and feels its necessary for the protection of the state then they should be educating people.

    Fine, but if you don't feel sufficiently educated after that the next step is to take it upon yourself to engage in extra research until you do. Not to go "lol, I dunno" and vote anyway.

    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Likewise anyone who thinks someone else should not be voting because they disagree with their reason for voting or the vote they cast really do not understand the foundation which this state is built upon.

    Well done on arguing against something I've not said.
    Have a gold star.
    LordSmeg wrote: »
    If everyone can vote, then everyone can vote which ever the hell way they want for whatever reason they want.

    Of course they can, the ones that refuse to honour their side of the deal to be informed voters are just shitty people and should be treated with contempt.
    But nobody is stopping them from casting their vote, even if they feel that as an adult a little reading and critical thinking is just simply too much to ask.

    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Welcome to democracy !!

    fuck off with that bullshit, protecting people's inability to live up to the responsibilities that come with having a vote isn't "democracy". And couching your terrible insistence that we respect peoples wilful ignorance isn't going to become legitimate just because you like to use that word like an insta-win trump card.


  • #113
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    if you dont understand full stop you shouldnt vote,
    I would say there's very few people that fully understand what's going to happen. People don't trust the politicians and bankers that came up with this deal and we all know at the back of our minds that the people making this deal are probably covering their own arses as much as anything. It's not just about understanding what changes will be made in Ireland, there will be other ramifications down the road that we won't be able to vote on.

    I'm voting no because I don't trust the people making the deal, I don't understand what's going to happen and I'm not willing to put in the months of research I'd need to fully understand how it would effect me and my country (reading a pamphlet and listening to the polar opposite war of words between the vested interests isn't really enough). I think anyone that thinks they fully understand this is only reading the synopsis on the back of the book and don't even have access to the rest of the book to educate themselves any further.

    I think I'm fully entitled and right to vote no as the people making the deal want the biased banking system to return to power even though we all know it will fail again as failure is a reoccurring and desired side effect of the current monetary system.


  • #114
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Fine, but if you don't feel sufficiently educated after that the next step is to take it upon yourself to engage in extra research until you do. Not to go "lol, I dunno" and vote anyway.

    This is a pretty complex thing we are voting on, not everyone is going to be able to do the research and write a fcukin thesis on why they are voting. The media is the means by which this information is given to people so if nobody can adequately get the necessary information across that way for people to make an informed decision then you cannot moan about people being uninformed on the matter.

    Well done on arguing against something I've not said.
    Have a gold star.

    Edit: Perhaps you didnt I was just speaking generally at the view that some peopels opinions are more valid than others despite that not actually being the case as far as the law ans peoples rights in this country are concerned. It wasnt meant as an attack on you personally.

    Of course they can, the ones that refuse to honour their side of the deal to be informed voters are just shitty people and should be treated with contempt.
    But nobody is stopping them from casting their vote, even if they feel that as an adult a little reading and critical thinking is just simply too much to ask.

    You dont want people voting because you disagree with their reasoning. And your calling these people uninformed shítty people who should be treated with contempt ? Because you dont like that they vote ?
    fuck off with that bullshit, protecting people's inability to live up to the responsibilities that come with having a vote isn't "democracy". And couching your terrible insistence that we respect peoples wilful ignorance isn't going to become legitimate just because you like to use that word like an insta-win trump card.

    I used it because its a fcukin fact. This is a democracy and each persons vote is equal regardless of the reasons they cast it. If you dont understand that and insist your vote is more valid than others and they should be treated with contempt because of that fact they your not really in keeping with the rest of people in this democracy. Your the odd one out not those who are misinformed or uninformed. If you want people to be informed then go out and inform them, if not shut your fcukin hole and stop whinging.


  • #115
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,252 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Pedant wrote: »
    The OP raises a valid question.

    The brand of democracy we live in at the minute seems to base its legitimacy on the premise that the majority will of the electorate is infallible. This is a clear fallacy.

    If no-one is infallible, how would the majority of the electorate be infallible?

    The brand of democracy we live in at the moment is based on the majority, not the infallibility of the majority.

    What a silly premise.


  • #116
    leggit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭leggit


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    This is a pretty complex thing we are voting on, not everyone is going to be able to do the research and write a fcukin thesis on why they are voting. The media is the means by which this information is given to people so if nobody can adequately get the necessary information across that way for people to make an informed decision then you cannot moan about people being uninformed on the matter.




    Edit: Perhaps you didnt I was just speaking generally at the view that some peopels opinions are more valid than others despite that not actually being the case as far as the law ans peoples rights in this country are concerned. It wasnt meant as an attack on you personally.




    You dont want people voting because you disagree with their reasoning. And your calling these people uninformed shítty people who should be treated with contempt ? Because you dont like that they vote ?



    I used it because its a fcukin fact. This is a democracy and each persons vote is equal regardless of the reasons they cast it. If you dont understand that and insist your vote is more valid than others and they should be treated with contempt because of that fact they your not really in keeping with the rest of people in this democracy. Your the odd one out not those who are misinformed or uninformed. If you want people to be informed then go out and inform them, if not shut your fcukin hole and stop whinging.

    You hurt my brain, couldn't be arsed arguing against your points as you'll no doubt come back with something even more insane than what you've just posted.

    Please shread your voting card


  • #117
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    leggit wrote: »
    You hurt my brain, couldn't be arsed arguing against your points as you'll no doubt come back with something even more insane than what you've just posted.

    Please shread your voting card

    You couldnt be arsed discussing any points, call me insane for stating we live in a democracy where everyone's vote is equal and think I shouldnt be voting because of that ?

    This is logical and reasoned thought to you ?


  • #118
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    This is a pretty complex thing we are voting on, not everyone is going to be able to do the research and write a fcukin thesis on why they are voting.

    Then they should abstain form voting until they know what they're voting on.
    It's a simple concept.
    LordSmeg wrote: »
    The media is the means by which this information is given to people so if nobody can adequately get the necessary information across that way for people to make an informed decision then you cannot moan about people being uninformed on the matter.

    Wow, so the only source of information for people is the media. It's a crying shame we never got around to creating some kind of virtual, world spanning network of computers absolutely full of information. A damn, damn shame.
    Or educated people to the point of being able to read and reason on their own from multiple sources. That'd have been swell too.

    LordSmeg wrote: »
    You dont want people voting because you disagree with their reasoning. And your calling these people uninformed shítty people who should be treated with contempt ? Because you dont like that they vote ?

    Pretty much, I consider it contemptible that people who would openly admit they don't understand what they're doing would still go and vote.
    This is not unreasonable, they are terrible people.


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    I used it because its a fcukin fact. This is a democracy and each persons vote is equal regardless of the reasons they cast it. If you dont understand that and insist your vote is more valid than others and they should be treated with contempt because of that fact they your not really in keeping with the rest of people in this democracy. Your the odd one out not those who are misinformed or uninformed. If you want people to be informed then go out and inform them, if not shut your fcukin hole and stop whinging.

    Cry me a river, kid.
    Stop lauding laziness and ignorance.

    I don't care if you believe that the "rest of this democracy" think that voting with total ignorance is just fine.
    They are wrong and so are you.

    I wonder why you're so insistent that it's ok that people who have no damn clue what they're doing, by their own admission, should just vote anyway. What do we gain in this scenario? That if enough people just vote blindly that we'll magically reach the best decision?
    That the result is more valid by sheer weight of numbers involved in reaching it, regardless of the understanding those voting had of the issue.

    And I do love the 'retort' to the idea that people need to take their responsibilities seriously is "why don't you go spoon feed them, then?"

    And as a final repetition, because you can't seem to grasp it. I understand and accept that all votes are equal, but what I'm driving at and you're constantly ignoring, is that if you want to vote you have a responsibility to be informed about what it is you're voting on.
    If you can't do that then you should do the decent thing and stay at home. And there is no shame in that.

    However claiming it's too hard or people didn't spoon feed you enough information or whatever else you want to make up isn't an excuse, it's a cop out and those who engage in it and those who are apologists for it are as bad as each other.


  • #119
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    hooradiation wrote: »
    And as a final repetition, because you can't seem to grasp it. I understand and accept that all votes are equal, but what I'm driving at and you're constantly ignoring, is that if you want to vote you have a responsibility to be informed about what it is you're voting on.
    If you can't do that then you should do the decent thing and stay at home. And there is no shame in that.
    I don't see how anyone could be sure they understand the treaty. It was written by hundreds of politicians, solicitors, economists and all sorts of highly educated collage graduates across Europe. How can one average Joe citizen understand what's really happening? This like all votes is a popularity contest, the people will vote for the side they feel they trust.


  • #120
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    LordSmeg wrote: »
    Because no changes can be made if its a no vote thats why it would be rejected by someone who doesnt understand it.

    You dont stand back and reject your right to vote on something because you think you have no right to vote on it if you dont understand it. Thats what would be utterly stupid.

    so voting on something you dont understand is a smart thing to do?
    LordSmeg wrote: »
    I dont understand this let others make the decision for me rather than saying I think no changes should be made until this all becomes clearer and voting accordingly.

    you do understand voting no does not mean NOTHING will happen, quite the opposite.


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  • #121
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    ScumLord wrote: »
    This like all votes is a popularity contest, the people will vote for the side they feel they trust.

    http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/facepalm.jpg


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