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Libertas posters have sprung up

245

Comments

  • #32
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    My post is still correct because the process is not complete. We can't be certain the Croatian Treaty will be ratified until it happens.
    So it will be quite easy for Mr Hollande to reverse that and add it to something we have already voted for.


  • #33
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    My post is still correct because the process is not complete. We can't be certain the Croatian Treaty will be ratified until it happens.

    Why is Croatia such a big deal in relation to this referendum?

    (I'm trying to figure out why the exact timing of Croatia completing a ratification process is such a show-stopper for you.)


  • #34
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    My post is still correct because the process is not complete. We can't be certain the Croatian Treaty will be ratified until it happens.

    Not really - your post very clearly implies that nothing was being done about the Protocols, which is demonstrably false. I also can't help but notice that people voting No don't appear to have been even slightly concerned about the Protocols until now.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #35
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Not really - your post very clearly implies that nothing was being done about the Protocols, which is demonstrably false. I also can't help but notice that people voting No don't appear to have been even slightly concerned about the Protocols until now.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    It's one of the main things that drive me crazy about the no campaign, the moving of the goalposts. You get "I'm voting no because (insert reason here)". It's pointed out that this reason is not based on the facts. Then you get "I'm voting no (insert different reason here)". This new reason is debunked and on it goes. It's bloody frustrating and very dishonest.


  • #36
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    You know I've been seeing quite a number of people online applauding how correct Ganley was on the Lisbon treaty and I really don't get it it.

    I think pretty much everything the said about the Lisbon treaty was a lie or wrong.
    Self amending treaty – lie
    Saved Brian Cowens Job – wrong
    European Army – lie
    Our last say on Europe – lie

    And now he’s saying “Cut the bank debt or no deal”. When he must know the last government basically paid off all the original bondholders and the bank debt is now our debt. (as much as I would wish it to be different).

    Am I missing something?


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  • #37
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    meglome wrote: »
    You know I've been seeing quite a number of people online applauding how correct Ganley was on the Lisbon treaty and I really don't get it it.

    I think pretty much everything the said about the Lisbon treaty was a lie or wrong.
    Self amending treaty – lie
    Saved Brian Cowens Job – wrong
    European Army – lie
    Our last say on Europe – lie

    And now he’s saying “Cut the bank debt or no deal”. When he must know the last government basically paid off all the original bondholders and the bank debt is now our debt. (as much as I would wish it to be different).

    Am I missing something?
    "Yes for Jobs" was a lie.


  • #38
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    "Yes for Jobs" was a lie.

    That's not really answering the question as to what Ganley was correct about. Do you think Ganley (or any of the Lisbon 'no' arguments for that matter) actually were right, with hindsight?

    If so which ones, out of curiosity?


  • #39
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    That's not really answering the question as to what Ganley was correct about. Do you think Ganley (or any of the Lisbon 'no' arguments for that matter) actually were right, with hindsight?

    If so which ones, out of curiosity?
    He was right that Lisbon would not bring jobs.


  • #40
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    He was right that Lisbon would not bring jobs.

    I don't remember him particularly claiming that, any more than every No campaigner was duty-bound to disagree with whatever the Yes side said.

    You're not exactly backing up the claim "he was right about Lisbon" here.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #41
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    He was right that Lisbon would not bring jobs.

    I didn't see that on any Libertas posters? Also I'd like to see a direct quote of Ganley stating there will be no jobs after Lisbon, if you are claiming that he was 'right' about it, lets see where he said it?

    Also, FYI, there have been several hundred jobs created in MNC's since the Lisbon treaty passed, the same MNC's who said that it was vitally important for inward investment that we be seen to be a stable, pro Europe country, demonstrated by a 'yes' vote. Just because there has been no net gain in jobs generally, or net fall in unemployment, does not mean no jobs were created in the exact sectors which claimed that they could help sell Ireland Inc. with a 'yes' vote.

    Not that I believe personally that there is massively direct causation involved.

    It's you making the claim, though, so let's see you back it up, or retract it.


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  • #42
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Just to remind everyone on what Libertas said on the lisbon treaty: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055566041
    1. It is self amending. The European Council can change the way the EU operates without the need for further treaties (or a referendum in Ireland) provided there is a majority vote.

    2. A new role of President of Europe is created. The President would represent you on the world stage, yet would not be elected by you. The President’s exact powers are unknown - they have not yet been drawn up.

    3. The national parliament that you elected becomes devalued. If a national parliament believes that a proposal is outside of the remit of the EU, the unelected European Commission can decide to maintain, amend or reject the proposal.

    4. EU law will take primacy over a member state’s law if there is a difference between the two.

    5. You will have a common EU citizenship. You will have a duty of obedience to the European Union’s laws and loyalty to its institutions. Members of the European Parliament no longer represent “peoples of the member states” but will represent “citizens of the Union”.

    oh and scary lizard eyes girl too: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/247507/91863.jpg


    Sadly libertas have pulped their website and I cannot find a stable cache version of their site so you'll have to take the word from posts bringing the points of libertas to boards as your source for now.


  • #43
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    It's you making the claim, though, so let's see you back it up, or retract it.

    And like that... *whoosh*... he's gone...


  • #44
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    It's you making the claim, though, so let's see you back it up, or retract it.

    And like that... *whoosh*... he's gone...


    Well the poll in the other threads hasn't gone. Might not be any more accurate than Red C but still goes to show that a greater proportion of people aren't listening to the YES side...no matter who they drag in here to fight their corner!!!


  • #45
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    EURATS wrote: »
    Well the poll in the other threads hasn't gone. Might not be any more accurate than Red C but still goes to show that a greater proportion of people aren't listening to the YES side...no matter who they drag in here to fight their corner!!!

    I'd say that it's decidedly less accurate than Red C, scientifically. That aside, who has been dragged in here?


  • #46
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    Well the poll in the other threads hasn't gone. Might not be any more accurate than Red C but still goes to show that a greater proportion of people aren't listening to the YES side...no matter who they drag in here to fight their corner!!!

    I'd say that it's decidedly less accurate than Red C, scientifically. That aside, who has been dragged in here?


    And your reasons for making such scientific assumptions?

    U know yourself who has been dragged in here. Albeit willingly!!


  • #47
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    EURATS wrote: »
    And your reasons for making such scientific assumptions?

    U know yourself who has been dragged in here. Albeit willingly!!
    meglome wrote: »
    After posting on the Journal for the past few weeks about the Fiscal Compact I just wanted to share my observations on how the No side (for the most part) is operating.

    No side tactics…
    1. Pull on the heart strings.
    2. Try to drum up nationalistic fervour.
    3. Claim the person is a sheep, an idiot or whatever other name they fancy.
    4. Scaremongering. But they *are* stealing our babies.
    5. Blame anyone else, especially the Germans. (Often included with xenophobic mentions of Nazis, Fascists etc).
    6. Claim the person is being paid for their opinions.

    ...it's a sad reflection that the majority (IMO) of the No side are stooping to these.

    I think given Sam Vines post about No side lies on the Lisbon treaty it's really doesn't reflect well on the level of debate generally.

    I draw your attention to point 6.


  • #48
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    meglome wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    And your reasons for making such scientific assumptions?

    U know yourself who has been dragged in here. Albeit willingly!!
    meglome wrote: »
    After posting on the Journal for the past few weeks about the Fiscal Compact I just wanted to share my observations on how the No side (for the most part) is operating.

    No side tactics…
    1. Pull on the heart strings.
    2. Try to drum up nationalistic fervour.
    3. Claim the person is a sheep, an idiot or whatever other name they fancy.
    4. Scaremongering. But they *are* stealing our babies.
    5. Blame anyone else, especially the Germans. (Often included with xenophobic mentions of Nazis, Fascists etc).
    6. Claim the person is being paid for their opinions.

    ...it's a sad reflection that the majority (IMO) of the No side are stooping to these.

    I think given Sam Vines post about No side lies on the Lisbon treaty it's really doesn't reflect well on the level of debate generally.

    I draw your attention to point 6.


    How convenient...none of the above applies to the YES side..well once you believe it..that's the main thing!!!


  • #49
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    EURATS wrote: »
    How convenient...none of the above applies to the YES side..well once you believe it..that's the main thing!!!

    Well feel free to point out where the yes side did these things. I made this list from the things that were said directly to me.


  • #50
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    meglome wrote: »

    Well feel free to point out where the yes side did these things. I made this list from the things that were said directly to me.

    - kenny uses the IRA past to continue to drum up anti Sinn Féin rhetoric..and he knows only too well that this works with a lot of the electorate. He doesn't seem to mind sitting beside (former workers party/official Sinn /official IRA) Eamon Gilmore.

    - With regard to pulling on the heart strings, both sides are guilty of this. Remove yourself from denial if you can manage it!


    - drumming up nationalist fervour..terrible thing to be proud of your nation. Certainly we have no pride in our clueless and spineless politicians.


    - with regards to the Germans...if the shoe fits!



    - In relation to referring to sheep and idiots...is it not true to say that the EU is looking to herd all the states into a little pen and when they are fat enough..take them to slaughter?


  • #51
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    EURATS wrote: »
    And your reasons for making such scientific assumptions?

    U know yourself who has been dragged in here. Albeit willingly!!

    Red C apply statistically sound methodologies in extrapolating general results from carefully chosen sample data, which matches as closely as possible the general voting populace. The boards poll is of a self selecting sample of the denizens of the politics forum of boards.ie.

    I actually don't know myself, I'm genuinely confused as to who you are talking about??


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  • #52
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    EURATS wrote: »
    And your reasons for making such scientific assumptions?

    U know yourself who has been dragged in here. Albeit willingly!!

    Red C apply statistically sound methodologies in extrapolating general results from carefully chosen sample data, which matches as closely as possible the general voting populace. The boards poll is of a self selecting sample of the denizens of the politics forum of boards.ie.

    I actually don't know myself, I'm genuinely confused as to who you are talking about??

    A poll..is a poll..is a poll. And nothing more. All the polls in here seem to be 56% NO. So you are saying that it's a rubbish poll then. Fair enough


  • #53
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    EURATS wrote: »
    A poll..is a poll..is a poll. And nothing more. All the polls in here seem to be 56% NO. So you are saying that it's a rubbish poll then. Fair enough

    I'm not concerned with the results of the poll, it would be no more scientific if it showed 56% yes. I'm talking about methodology.

    Edit: can you clarify your comment above on who has been 'dragged' in here?


  • #54
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    EURATS wrote: »
    - kenny uses the IRA past to continue to drum up anti Sinn Féin rhetoric..and he knows only too well that this works with a lot of the electorate. He doesn't seem to mind sitting beside (former workers party/official Sinn /official IRA) Eamon Gilmore.

    I've seen him and Gilmore laugh at the Sinn Fein economic polices but then I do that myself as they are rubbish. Haven't seen him do what you say though regarding the Fiscal compact.
    EURATS wrote: »
    - With regard to pulling on the heart strings, both sides are guilty of this. Remove yourself from denial if you can manage it!

    Really? So you've been told that our children and grandchildren will suffer terribly if we vote Yes? I have quite a number of times.
    EURATS wrote: »
    - drumming up nationalist fervour..terrible thing to be proud of your nation. Certainly we have no pride in our clueless and spineless politicians.

    I've been told repeatedly that I must hate my country for promoting a Yes. Have you been told that ever?
    EURATS wrote: »
    - with regards to the Germans...if the shoe fits!

    Well people certainly people say it fits. Not very forthcoming on any proof for it though.
    EURATS wrote: »
    - In relation to referring to sheep and idiots...is it not true to say that the EU is looking to herd all the states into a little pen and when they are fat enough..take them to slaughter?

    What possible sense does that make? We are the EU as much as anyone is.


  • #55
    crusher000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    I say get rid of our Government as they have no say in the running of this country. We're been run by the money markets with Merkel at the top. Protect the banks of Europe at all costs. So we would save a fortune if we get rid of our politicans and let Merkel run us directly. Cut out the middle man vote yes/no doesn't matter let your pants down around your ankles because Europe will be back to us regardless of result. And the mantra of our Government is by Ireland voting yes it will bring stability.Jesus we should have had this vote three years ago and we wouldn't have austerity. Can I have more than one vote please I'm going to fix the whole mess.


  • #56
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Re:meglome

    Kenny and Gilmore aren't really in a position to be laughing at people. Kenny hasn't the bottle to do a TV debate, and Gilmore made an absolute cock up of his debate the other night(my opinion). As you would say..rubbish!!
    You interestingly ignore Gilmores IRA past. Kenny and co. do that too. Obviously the FG/Labour line.


    We have been told that the country and our children will suffer terribly if we vote NO???...absolutely!!

    I wouldn't say you hate your country for voting YES..I would say that you are disloyal and unionist(European). Your priority is the European "project" first and foremost.

    We are the EU as much as anyone else?..what a joke. We are disposable as far as Europe are concerned. And as you threaten..we will see that when the EU "move on" without us in the event of a NO vote.


  • #57
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    Sadly libertas have pulped their website and I cannot find a stable cache version of their site so you'll have to take the word from posts bringing the points of libertas to boards as your source for now.
    Internet archive ftw!

    http://web.archive.org/web/20090428221234/http://www.libertas.eu/en/policies/reasonslisbontrreaty
    crusher000 wrote: »
    Jesus we should have had this vote three years ago and we wouldn't have austerity. Can I have more than one vote please I'm going to fix the whole mess.
    So you think vote yes for austerity, and vote no for... what? Can't get the money from Germany, so get it from the people. Increase the tax on booze bread, cigs, condoms, and other random "luxury" items. May as well increase the tax on milk and petrol.

    Or where does Ganley hope to get the cash from. Of course, as he's not in the Dail, he doesn't have to think of a way, does he? He can just sit on the side-line flinging mud... :mad:


  • #58
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    EURATS wrote: »
    Re:meglome

    Kenny and Gilmore aren't really in a position to be laughing at people. Kenny hasn't the bottle to do a TV debate, and Gilmore made an absolute cock up of his debate the other night(my opinion). As you would say..rubbish!!
    You interestingly ignore Gilmores IRA past. Kenny and co. do that to. Obviously the FG/Labour line.

    Is there some rule that says Enda Kenny has to do a debate on the Fiscal treaty? I seemed to have missed that one. And I notice you're still lacking any proof for what you said.
    EURATS wrote: »
    We have been told that the country and our children will suffer terribly if we vote NO...absolutely!!

    Really where did any Yes campaigner say our children and grandchildren will suffer?
    EURATS wrote: »
    I wouldn't say you hate your country for voting YES..I would say that you are disloyal and unionist(European). Your priority is the European "project" first and foremost. .

    hahahaha is that right. My my it must be a strange world in your head. Here's a little tip for you... supporting the European 'project' and supporting your country are not contradictory positions, both can happily live with each other. And if there's a conflict I'll vote in favour of this country.
    EURATS wrote: »
    We are the EU as much as anyone else?..what a joke. We are disposable as far as Europe are concerned. And as you threaten..we will see that when the EU "move on" without us in the event of a NO vote.

    We are a minor player in European terms but we are the EU as such as anyone is. I'm not overplaying our importance just stating a fact.


    I can't help but notice you didn't prove anything you were claiming initially. Nothing new there though.


  • #59
    wilson10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭wilson10


    gurramok wrote: »
    In the last 24hours or so, I've noticed Libertas posters have sprung up over North Dublin(Blanchardstown, Finglas, Ballymun, Santry) and even in the not so populated areas. The posters are quite numerous and not just on the odd telegraph pole. I'd have to assume its similar in other areas near the city centre and beyond?

    Anyway, I'm curious how a tiny political group could muster the funds for such a poster campaign on the scale of a large political party?:confused:

    Did you notice that these Libertas posters have sprung up where there had been Yes posters.

    I don't know how widespread the practice is but I have seen Yes posters torn down and replaced with Libertas No posters in mid Louth.

    I believe it is an offence to remove a poster before an election or referendum.


  • #60
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    the_syco wrote: »
    Or where does Ganley hope to get the cash from?
    My guess is, he's counting on his arms dealing friends.


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  • #61
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Re: meglome

    There isn't a rule stating Kenny has to participate in a televised debate. I never said there was. I said he hadn't the bottle. You, as usual, didn't grasp that or ignored it.

    In relation to threats..saying that a NO vote would definitely mean a worse budget? Well anyone with a brain knows that this is threatening the irish family. You can camouflage that all you like, you're not doing a very good job!

    In relation to the EU..we are a Nation first..and part of the EU project second. Otherwise, why are we paying our politicians so much money?? when really their roles are menial and of minimum relevance on the grander scale of things and therefore they should be paid and respected accordingly.

    You contradicted yourself by saying we are minor players, and yet WE ARE THE EU?
    Manure.

    In relation to Gilmore..Bury your head in the sand if you wish. Did you ever see Gerry Adams with an Ak?


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