Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

ush · 16-05-2012 10:50PM

fred funk }{ wrote: »

I'm gutted he was sacked, wish he'd of walked before being pushed.

I don't expect that from anybody, in any walk of life. The man had a contract. The club were his employer. Walk away and he misses out on the renumeration all parties agreed upon.

I'd prefer Kenny to be sacked. KD convinced that he can't do the job and quietly leaving the club, would be a pathetic admission of defeat. He can leave with his head held high.

daithijjj · 16-05-2012 10:52PM

Blatter wrote: »

Well first of all, I don't really buy into the cup runs being a significant factor for the poor league form. I think the fact that there was no European football this season, pretty much cancels that out. How many more extra games did the cup runs lead to in comparison to what they typically would do for Liverpool, 6 or 7?

I do agree with your point about teams needing time to gel however only a certain amount of leeway can be given on that score otherwise several managers that are taking teams nowhere wouldn't be sacked for that reason alone. Once a certain line is crossed when it comes to results over the course of a season, the manager has to go imo. Only 6 wins at Anfield in the PL all season and finishing up with 52 points just wasn't acceptable in any way, shape or form.

Ask yourself, could you really see Downing, Adam, Henderson, Enrique, Carroll and Suarez all gelling to an extent where they could consistently challenge for the top four? I can almost say for certain Downing and Adam, no. Henderson and Carroll are a whole lot of maybes, Enrique - probably and Suarez most definitely. There are too many question marks over too many of his signings, which has imo, ultimately lead to his departure.

Add that to his bizarre decision to continue to play Carragher over Coates, bringing on Carroll in games whilst simultaneously taking off one of your best crossers in Downing, dropping Carroll when he seems to have hit some form, his general inability to change games that aren't going Liverpool's way, waiting too long to make substitutions and although less relevant, his handling of the Suarez fiasco hardly did him any favours.

Then consider the fact that he had been out of management for over 10 years and to be perfectly frank with you, it just didn't bode well for the future. I can absolutely 100% see why FSG felt the need to change manager.

I do believe they affected our team. We got drawn away from home every round, 2 legs against City, could be argued that some players started protecting themselves (which was not good enough but the manager didnt suggest it), anyway, enough of that.

When you say "leeway", you should look closer to home. Sorry to bring it up but Alex Ferguson spent heavily over 3 years '88/89/90 before it started to pay off, its true, he got lucky, you know it, he knows it, everyone knows it. Sure it was a different game but 'stability' and 'patience' are still the same old same old.

Our issue was scoring goals, nothing else, a striker should have come in, i wouldnt say it was a sackable offence. Carragher played less than half a season, he is and was on the way out, even for Kenny. Carroll never showed anything in alot of games, if he played him and played rubbish he would be accused of being too loyal, we played without Carroll at Norwich and were great, whats a man to do but start that team in the cup final?. Carroll has been a different man since he went to Newcastle again for that game, it was only 6 weeks ago he really showed up for the season. The Suarez saga was a club issue, the chain of command were as useful as tits on a bull, thats why we have a former FA chief exec come in to do a review of that part of the club and wield axes.

What does being out of the game for 10 years mean to our owners?, they are the same men who signed him up for 3 years. Either they made a brutal decision giving the contract or a brutal decision sacking him, whatever the outcome of deliberations, as far as we are concerned as fans, at least one brutal decision was made, possibly 2 depending on your view. Its the owners that have lost confidence today in a significant section, i dont know who said it but i like it..........'the only thing that beats Kings, is Aces, over to you FSG'......because we will be here when you show your hand and long after.

whatawaster · 16-05-2012 10:54PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

The proof is in the pudding mate! 3 managers in 3 years you've wanted sacked.

You've jumped the fence baby, as Dunphy would say.

I'm afraid I don't think you would. Football managers, by virtue of the amount of decisions they make & the amount of variables there is for those decisions, will ALWAYS make decisions people disagree with. AVB at Chelsea for example, I remember him making some weird subs & persisting with Lampard for a period when it was clear it wasn't working. Having the old guard on the bench as opposed to young up n coming players etc. You'd use things like that as justification for wanting any manager sacked if the results aren't going great. I'd put money on it

Nah, even when Rafa did the odd bizzare thing in his first 5 years at the club I defended them and him to the death, because I believed in what he was doing.

Mr Alan · 16-05-2012 10:55PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I do believe they affected our team. We got drawn away from home every round, 2 legs against City, could be argued that some players started protecting themselves (which was not good enough but the manager didnt suggest it), anyway, enough of that.

When you say "leeway", you should look closer to home. Sorry to bring it up but Alex Ferguson spent heavily over 3 years '88/89/90 before it started to pay off, its true, he got lucky, you know it, he knows it, everyone knows it. Sure it was a different game but 'stability' and 'patience' are still the same old same old.

Our issue was scoring goals, nothing else, a striker should have come in, i wouldnt say it was a sackable offence. Carragher played less than half a season, he is and was on the way out, even for Kenny. Carroll never showed anything in alot of games, if he played him and played rubbish he would be accused of being too loyal, we played without Carroll at Norwich and were great, whats a man to do but start that team in the cup final?. Carroll has been a different man since he went to Newcastle again for that game, it was only 6 weeks ago he really showed up for the season. The Suarez saga was a club issue, the chain of command were as useful as tits on a bull, thats why we have a former FA chief exec come in to do a review of that part of the club and wield axes.

What does being out of the game for 10 years mean to our owners?, they are the same men who signed him up for 3 years. Either they made a brutal decision giving the contract or a brutal decision sacking him, whatever the outcome of deliberations, as far as we are concerned as fans, at least one brutal decision was made, possibly 2 depending on your view. Its the owners that have lost confidence today in a significant section, i dont know who said it but i like it..........'the only thing that beats Kings, is Aces, over to you FSG'......because we will be here when you show your hand and long after.

Great post.

joe123 · 16-05-2012 10:56PM

amiable wrote: »

Not going to happen IMO

Only way I could of ever seen that was if he had won both the league and champions league with madrid.

But it will never happen anyways. (him joining us)

Rafa is our best hope.

Mr Alan · 16-05-2012 10:57PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Nah, even when Rafa did the odd bizzare thing in his first 5 years at the club I defended them and him to the death, because I believed in what he was doing.

He won a European Cup & an FA Cup in his first two seasons & we were in the CL every year he was at the club. The fact you even wanted him sacked in the end, despite all that was going on at the club kind of proves the point I'm making!

kingshankly · 16-05-2012 10:59PM

I'm sure kennys in for a pull of compensation that's more money down the drain

daithijjj · 16-05-2012 11:03PM

whatawaster wrote: »

That's not what most people are saying.

Whether or not you think Kenny was the right man for Liverpool goes beyond his league peformance this season. It's about whether or not you trust him to do the long-term rebuilding necessary.

Personally, I didn't rate his signings. I know he is not responsible for the prices paid, but f*** me, I could have told Kenny last summer that Downing would cost 15-20 million and Henderson 15m plus. Carroll cost 35 million, and you think Kenny had no idea that was going on? If signing Carroll was his decision, he could have pulled the plug when he realised the price. He didn't. He clearly thought these players were worth this money. That is my problem. It showed a lack of vision. Unimaginative, overpriced, overrated signings.

Furthermore, I don't think his tactics were much to write home about. I think his use of benches was downright awful (both in their makeup, and his actual substitutions) and he just filled me with no confidence in his ability to turn things around.

When the league went **** up, he made no effort to integrate Coates more into the team. Playing Carragher in the last game of the season was baffling.

Ultimately for me he had to go because I had no faith in him turning it around.
Simple as that. I think the owners felt the same way, and I'm glad they acted upon it.

Much better to have a vision and act upon it rather than the "let's wait and see what happens next season approach."

Strangely, for someone who has wanted 3 managers removed in 3 seasons (I'm not proud of that, and I was wrong about Benitez, in hindsight) I am more than willing to give a manager time.

If a young manager came in and finished 6th/7th next season I would be happy to keep them on if they looked like they were bringing the club forward. If they were implementing a style of play on the team, introducing younger players, signing the right kinds of players.

Kenny, from our lowest ebb, didn't bring us forward nearly enough for me.

Love him, but that comes a distant second to my concerns for the clubs future.

Whats your reasoning?, how can you determine this to be progress?, thats where Kenny has us? and you would be happy for another manager to come in, get more money? and finish ballpark same place? give him another year? why?. Progress indeed. What will you say next season if your new young manager gets the chop? and the next one after that?

Why should i come closer to your view of the future when your answer to mine is, Kenny had to go, why should i give the new guy longer to build off Kenny's work if its not good enough for KK?. Because he is young? he finished 7th?. Tell me how your vision of finishing 7th differs from my vision of finishing in a similar place and giving a manager some time to get it right!!! Give me a scenario where you see a team finish 7th next year and we have progressed.!!

whatawaster · 16-05-2012 11:04PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

He won a European Cup & an FA Cup in his first two seasons & we were in the CL every year he was at the club. The fact you even wanted him sacked in the end, despite all that was going on at the club kind of proves the point I'm making!

This is one argument I'm not going to re-visit. If I could go back two years, I wouldn't sack Rafa.

Chucky the tree · 16-05-2012 11:04PM

Scoring goals wasn't our only problem. We had plenty of game where we were just terrible as well. That was the major problem with Kenny, we were consistently inconsistent which was a big worry for me. Couldn't seem to keep the players motivated and performing well enough for a length of time.

lmao · 16-05-2012 11:07PM

Terry McDermott @TerryMac777

I just want to say how gutted i am that LFC have sacked Kenny today. The man is LFC through and through and he would have got it right. Whoever is next has to be a big name proven top flight manager, the Liverpool job isnt a job for a novice. In the modern day game its business people making football decisions and not football people making football decisions Kenny stabilised the club last year when they were in free fall, people shouldnt forget that. I agree some of the signings havent been a success this year but players need time, i needed 2 years and i ended up doing ok didnt I??

5starpool · 16-05-2012 11:08PM

The list of "what the fúck are they on" LFC related posters that I disagree with before they've even posted on this forum has increased from about 2 a couple of years ago, to close to 10 now at this stage. It's a worrying trend, and I'm relatively tolerant.

Morzadec · 16-05-2012 11:09PM

Anyone think that a new manager might mean a fairly decent transfer kitty this summer, perhaps more than we were expecting?

whatawaster · 16-05-2012 11:10PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Whats your reasoning?, how can you determine this to be progress?, thats where Kenny has us? and you would be happy for another manager to come in, get more money? and finish ballpark same place? give him another year? why?. Progress indeed. What will you say next season if your new young manager gets the chop? and the next one after that?

Why should i come closer to your view of the future when your answer to mine is, Kenny had to go, why should i give the new guy longer to build off Kenny's work if its not good enough for KK?. Because he is young? he finished 7th?. Tell me how your vision of finishing 7th differs from my vision of finishing in a similar place and giving a manager some time to get it right!!! Give me a scenario where you see a team finish 7th next year and we have progressed.!!

What is progress to one man is going backwards to another.

Signings I agree with, better use of youth players, someone who prefers the promising youth (Coates etc) over dinosaurs (Carragher), someone who changes tactics during matches when plan A is not working, someone who picks players on current form rather than past form.

That's just some of it.

They're personal to me. Not everyone values the same attributes in a manager. That's why some people wanted Kenny to stay and I didn't.

Mr Alan · 16-05-2012 11:14PM

So if a new manager comes in, plays Carra a bit, struggles tactically at times, doesnt make the subs you would & doesn't really give Sterling more than a couple of cameos & comes 6th, you'll want him sacked?

mike65 · 16-05-2012 11:16PM

Morzadec wrote: »

Anyone think that a new manager might mean a fairly decent transfer kitty this summer, perhaps more than we were expecting?

Only better in the sense that FSG clearly wouldn't have trusted Dalglish to spend much above net spend of zero (which is why they sacked him of course).

If they have a plan, and one trusts they do having staged a night of the long
knives, then they do need to be willing to back that up to a plausible level.

Tusky · 16-05-2012 11:17PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Scoring goals wasn't our only problem. We had plenty of game where we were just terrible as well. That was the major problem with Kenny, we were consistently inconsistent which was a big worry for me. Couldn't seem to keep the players motivated and performing well enough for a length of time.

Exactly - and that never improved during the season. I don't think he was sacked for missing out on fourth - he was sacked because the owners didn't believe he could get fourth next year. The team showed no signs of improvement, consistency or direction during this campaign. Kenny got the job because he did an exceptional job for the second half of last season. I think it surprised a lot of people, myself included, but there a question mark remained about whether he could make the step up. I just don't think he did enough this season to get rid of that question mark unfortunately.

16-05-2012 11:19PM

daithijjj wrote: »

When you say "leeway", you should look closer to home. Sorry to bring it up but Alex Ferguson spent heavily over 3 years '88/89/90 before it started to pay off, its true, he got lucky, you know it, he knows it, everyone knows it. Sure it was a different game but 'stability' and 'patience' are still the same old same old.

.

Great post.

Most utd fans probably too young on here to remember this banner.Different times but just shows you http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Tara1.jpg

I think it's a sad day for the club myself, good news tomorrow please

Leiva · 16-05-2012 11:20PM

I would say there are a few Liverpool players quaking in their boots, and rightly so .

sweetie · 16-05-2012 11:21PM

Leiva wrote: »

Not even an amoeba would question Kennys legendary status, but yet again this is the soccer forum .

Surely he wouldnt, didn't he manage Shola at newcastle?

16-05-2012 11:22PM

kingshankly wrote: »

I'm sure kennys in for a pull of compensation that's more money down the drain

Someone mentioned £8m - 2 years x £4m

Add that to Hodgson and Rafa compo and it's the guts of a top class player. Plus, we'll probably end up paying Wigan to take Martinez only to sack him in a year :pac:

klose · 16-05-2012 11:22PM

The avb talk is picking up speed I say go for it before martinez,lambert and co.

Anyways I'll always love kenny and what he's done for the club past and present, he's liverpool through and through, cut his veins and he bleeds liverpool red. It is the right decison and im sure the club will remain his 2nd most loved thing next to his family, I wish him well.
The clubs priorities go first before affiliations, ask a united fan what would they like to see happen if fergie had a meltdown/poor season/signings etc.. and im sure theyd put the club before fergie. Bitter pill to swallow but such is life.

Ceretainly a massive summer ahead for the club, hopefully some good news in the weeks ahead!

5starpool · 16-05-2012 11:23PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Great post.

Most utd fans probably too young on here to remember this banner.Different times but just shows you http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Tara1.jpg

I think it's a sad day for the club myself, good news tomorrow please

Not a chance in a million years would he have survived if the internet was around those days like it is now. None whatsoever.

16-05-2012 11:26PM

5starpool wrote: »

Not a chance in a million years would he have survived if the internet was around those days like it is now. None whatsoever.

http://i.imgur.com/psIdL.jpg

doc_17 · 16-05-2012 11:30PM

Sad day for the club. The only man I'd want now is Rafa. You can take Martinez, Lambert and Rodgers and shove up your backside. He won't have the backing of the fans.

When Hodgson came in he never had a chance for 2 reasons, the other being that he stepped into the shoes of a popular and likeable manager.

If we sack a legend like Kenny after 1 full season then we'd dump Martinez after 2 defeats

K-9 · 16-05-2012 11:31PM

djPSB wrote: »

After we beat City in the CC.

He got criticism from the first leg for going 5 at the back and then bringing on Carra as a DM. We'd no Lucas or Spearing and were playing City away! Suarez was out around that time too.

mike65 · 16-05-2012 11:31PM

5starpool wrote: »

Not a chance in a million years would he have survived if the internet was around those days like it is now. None whatsoever.

The internet didn't see off Dalglish (which is full of apologists btw) 130 million quid and 8th place (plus Suarez controversy) did that.

Andre Vilas-Boas chatter does indeed seem to be gathering pace, not a surprise
I guess - high profile, young, probably gifted despite Chelsea.

doc_17 · 16-05-2012 11:32PM

Stability is the key. If only we'd kept Rafa. I

Dont be at yourself · 16-05-2012 11:33PM

I can't really criticize the owners for this, because a lot of Liverpool fans were probably like myself and very much conflicted on whether he should stay or go. It's not an unjustifiable sacking, when you take our league form and off-the-pitch antics into account.

The absolutely crucial thing, of course, is appointing the right man to replace him. Liverpool are now in a position where we literally cannot afford another mistake. We can't have another mess like Hodgson's reign. More than that, and before we appoint a manager, we need a director of football who will impose an unshakeable philosophy on the club - a philosophy which will dictate the shortlist of managers.

The contenders, as I see them:

Martinez: Hasn't really 'done' a lot, but clearly a bright manager with bags of potential. A cheap option.

AVB: Did really well in a poor league, and won the UEFA Cup. Failed spectacularly at Chelsea, much of it his own fault. Would be a massive, massive risk. If we're looking at him based on his time at Porto, we should be looking at Steve McClaren too, surely...

Rodgers: He plays nice football and it would fit with the 'pass and move' tradition of the club. Totally unproven, though. Another cheap option.

Lambert: Another bright, tactically astute manager, but sometimes seems a bit of a 'tinkerman'. Again, unproven and cheap.

Bielsa: Left-field option. Tactics maybe a bit avant-garde for a league still weening itself off 4-4-2. Impressive record and very highly regarded. Bit of a fiery character though, and not sure how good is English is. Not sure if he'd leave Bilbao either.

Klopp: Off the back of a German domestic double, and second title in two years. Plays great football, excellent motivator and tactician, but questionable record in Europe. Also probably wants to stay at Dortmund for another crack at the whip next year. Untested outside Germany.

Rafa: The owners are probably wary of going back to a former manager again, but hard to argue against him. He gets the club, he loves the club. He knows the league, he knows the players. Has a proven record. Would answer a big 'What if?'

Capello: A born winner, he's done it in Spain and Italy, but his stint with the England team raises concerns. Has a history of falling out with players too, so I doubt things would be plain sailing. Out of work though, so not massively expensive.

Lowe: Hasn't done great at club level, but has the German team playing probably the best football on the planet. Might not want to hang around another two years to take Germany to Brazil, but will be in big demand if he decides to move on.

Then we have... Blanc, Deschamps, Van Gaal, Pardew, Mourinho, Guardiola, Emery, Pellligrini, Jorge Jesus, De Boer, Hamann, Di Canio, Rodolfo Borrel

Happy Monday · 16-05-2012 11:35PM

Leiva wrote: »

I would say there are a few Liverpool players quaking in their boots, and rightly so .

You think they give a fcuk?
Andy Carroll was laughing his head off fron the bench before the FA Cup Final.
Those donkies signed fat contracts 12 months ago.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

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