Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

Kess73 · 14-05-2012 05:06PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

At the same time folks, players are only human. The objective was CL. After the Everton game we were in a situation where 1) CL was not possible 2) There was a big game down the line that would define what people thought of the season

I mean, yeah, you can argue that they are getting paid to put in 100% all the time - but you need to be realistic. Most of you don't put in 100% in work every day of the year, and it's hard sometimes when there isn't much at stake.

100% all of the time is impossible, but a certain level of competence is to be expected though and I don't think the team as a whole came close to that over the course of the season.

For me the team were the footballing equivalent of Sex Panther this season.

60% of the time, it works every time.:D

Chucky the tree · 14-05-2012 05:13PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Why would you sack him (or his replacement) in such a scenario?

I never said anything about sacking his replacement. Well I don't think Kenny will ever be good enough to win us titles or CL, so finishing a few points off 4 won't change my opinion on that. Kenny should be sacked now. However I've heard people going on about one more season, what exactly does that entail? One more season so he can prove he isn't completely inept and then stick by him for how long?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

At the same time folks, players are only human. The objective was CL. After the Everton game we were in a situation where 1) CL was not possible 2) There was a big game down the line that would define what people thought of the season

I mean, yeah, you can argue that they are getting paid to put in 100% all the time - but you need to be realistic. Most of you don't put in 100% in work every day of the year, and it's hard sometimes when there isn't much at stake.

Except their managers job. It doesn't look very good about them not really caring about that.

spockety · 14-05-2012 05:17PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said anything about sacking his replacement. Well I don't think Kenny will ever be good enough to win us titles or CL, so finishing a few points off 4 won't change my opinion on that. Kenny should be sacked now. However I've heard people going on about one more season, what exactly does that entail? One more season so he can prove he isn't completely inept and then stick by him for how long?

What criteria would you apply to a replacement manager? i.e. What is it about a manager that would make you think he is good enough to win us titles or the Champions League?

LuckyLloyd · 14-05-2012 05:17PM

I think the same thing I thought in October 2006 with Kerr or May 2010 with Benitez - if there is someone demonstrably better out there then make a change. If the options are the likes of Martinez or Rogers then stick. We're disappointed, but it would be folly to label this season as a complete disaster, and no reason to sack him just because.

Chucky the tree · 14-05-2012 05:21PM

spockety wrote: »

What criteria would you apply to a replacement manager? i.e. What is it about a manager that would make you think he is good enough to win us titles or the Champions League?

Tactics, player selection, in-game management, player motivation mainly. Even a the impression that he has a plan and vision for the future in terms of how the team will play and it's something he intends to stick to. For me Kenny has done poorly in all of these areas. After 18 months I honestly still don't think he knows what his favourite formation is and what players he wants for that formation.

ush · 14-05-2012 05:22PM

SlickRic wrote: »

fair enough.

my statement was a bit broad, and in hindsight, wasn't meant to be so literal. it's just that i took exception to the "they're not playing for the manager" line.

i think up until the FA Cup semi-final, most of the team put the effort in. there are a few individual examples that go against that.

FA cup semi-final was in April. The wheels came off in March, at the latest.

Have you forgotten Bolton away? That was in January. Sandwiched between cup ties, in the middle of the Suarez mess, the team didn't turn up for a league match. League aspirations were melting.

Was it "Andy Carroll" who said on here that Kenny's brief was to get top 4. He ignored his brief and concentrated on cups.

Now Kenny losing the faith of the squad is a more reasonable explanation than the squad only being good enough for 8th. I think the quality is there, especially when Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea are wobbling.

If you don't accept him losing the squad or think the squad isn't good enough, what are you left with by way of explanation? A team that was allowed to consistently put in woeful performances and didn't beat the teams they should have. That is a far more damning verdict on Kenny.

Vudgie · 14-05-2012 05:23PM

This may be an unpopular position but I truely hope that if Kenny stays on he is advised (told) to change his poor conduct with the press. I don't need to see him giving smart ars* answers every week to the public detriment of the club. I don't necessarily blame him for the Suarez fiasco as I would hope that he was getting PR advice (bad advice) at that time (I emphasise hope!).

LuckyLloyd · 14-05-2012 05:33PM

Vudgie wrote: »

This may be an unpopular position but I truely hope that if Kenny stays on he is advised (told) to change his poor conduct with the press. I don't need to see him giving smart ars* answers every week to the public detriment of the club. I don't necessarily blame him for the Suarez fiasco as I would hope that he was getting PR advice (bad advice) at that time (I emphasise hope!).

I've heard that he simply doesn't suffer fools gladly. If he stays, he will treat the press like he has this season. I don't see the problem with that btw - modern media is a mixture of retards and scumbags and Kenny affords them all the time and dignity they deserve.

Phoenix Park · 14-05-2012 05:35PM

Vudgie wrote: »

This may be an unpopular position but I truely hope that if Kenny stays on he is advised (told) to change his poor conduct with the press. I don't need to see him giving smart ars* answers every week to the public detriment of the club. I don't necessarily blame him for the Suarez fiasco as I would hope that he was getting PR advice (bad advice) at that time (I emphasise hope!).

While i think Kenny's been poor with the media for 6 months or so, i won't lose any sleep over it. I'll lose sleep over us being shiite though. Get the team right, thats the main thing.

Kess73 · 14-05-2012 05:36PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think the same thing I thought in October 2006 with Kerr or May 2010 with Benitez - if there is someone demonstrably better out there then make a change. If the options are the likes of Martinez or Rogers then stick. We're disappointed, but it would be folly to label this season as a complete disaster, and no reason to sack him just because.

Yep pretty much what I have said on it. If Kenny is deemed not to be good enough by the owners, then he should only be replaced by a manager who has a track record that shows a certain level of quality, and who also impresses with his own vision/plans (realistic ones) for the role when interviewed.

It is pretty easy to pick a dream manager for the role. Klopp or Jose coupled with a hefty war chest would be simple to suggest. But short of having a City style cash supply this summer, we ain't getting one of them

I think in many ways we are in the same boat as when Rafa left, in that the incumbent manager should only be replaced if genuine quality is available to replace him. I would like to think that the Rafa situation has been a lesson on what happens when you don't upgrade once you decide a replacement is needed.

Kess73 · 14-05-2012 05:40PM

Vudgie wrote: »

This may be an unpopular position but I truely hope that if Kenny stays on he is advised (told) to change his poor conduct with the press. I don't need to see him giving smart ars* answers every week to the public detriment of the club. I don't necessarily blame him for the Suarez fiasco as I would hope that he was getting PR advice (bad advice) at that time (I emphasise hope!).

If Kenny stays, then it is on the pitch and league table where I want to see improvements. Winners can get away with giving the media a fair degree of jib. Ferguson is no angel in how he treats the media and he comes out with his own fair share of comments every season that would draw ridicule from the media had another said it.

Kenny was no lover of the media in his first term with us either, but his teams back then were winners like the man himself was on the pitch.

Sir Gallagher · 14-05-2012 05:43PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I've heard that he simply doesn't suffer fools gladly. If he stays, he will treat the press like he has this season. I don't see the problem with that btw - modern media is a mixture of retards and scumbags and Kenny affords them all the time and dignity they deserve.

He should be smarter than that and play the game, Kenny's personal feelings towards the media shouldn't come into it, he represents the club first and foremost.

OwaynOTT · 14-05-2012 05:44PM

spockety wrote: »

I can't stand assertions like this.

Am I the only one?

Especially when Carroll for example has improved recently and has been putting in the effort that was lacking before.

But yet Kenny has lost the squad

tibor · 14-05-2012 05:50PM

Coates to be sent out on loan?

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/05/sebastian-coates-could-be-loaned-out-next-season/

LimGal · 14-05-2012 05:52PM

tibor wrote: »

Coates to be sent out on loan?

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/05/sebastian-coates-could-be-loaned-out-next-season/

Thanks tibor.......you just took the jam out of MY doughnut with that bit of news.

Kess73 · 14-05-2012 05:59PM

tibor wrote: »

Coates to be sent out on loan?

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/05/sebastian-coates-could-be-loaned-out-next-season/

If true then it strengthens the rumour that the club are looking at bringing in a new CB this summer.

Hannibal · 14-05-2012 06:04PM

Coates cost £7m according to that article, all other sources i've seen reported £4.9m

kingshankly · 14-05-2012 06:04PM

I reckon villa will be straight in for Martinez now

Turtyturd · 14-05-2012 06:05PM

tibor wrote: »

Coates to be sent out on loan?

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/05/sebastian-coates-could-be-loaned-out-next-season/

Stuff like this might move me into the Kenny out camp.:pac:

K-9 · 14-05-2012 06:06PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Tactics, player selection, in-game management, player motivation mainly. Even a the impression that he has a plan and vision for the future in terms of how the team will play and it's something he intends to stick to. For me Kenny has done poorly in all of these areas. After 18 months I honestly still don't think he knows what his favourite formation is and what players he wants for that formation.

If we had Lucas I'd say we'd have a better idea but we didn't and as we know our midfield isn't that great, he can only work with what he has. We spent €110 Million poorly, Carroll was a panic buy IMO, I think we could have spent wiser than Henderson and Downing we know was over priced. Some of that blame has to go on Kenny.

Carroll and Henderson type deals shouldn't happen again with Comolli gone. The one I think Kenny needs to learn from is Downing and to a lesser degree Enrique, if we don't get our first target don't spend massively on the second choice, take stock and see are there other options out there.

Leiva · 14-05-2012 06:13PM

Twitter is spreading rumors that Drente is still in Liverpool and not gone home cause due to have talks ... with who I wonder ???

Chucky the tree · 14-05-2012 06:15PM

K-9 wrote: »

If we had Lucas I'd say we'd have a better idea but we didn't and as we know our midfield isn't that great, he can only work with what he has. We spent €110 Million poorly, Carroll was a panic buy IMO, I think we could have spent wiser than Henderson and Downing we know was over priced. Some of that blame has to go on Kenny.

Carroll and Henderson type deals shouldn't happen again with Comolli gone. The one I think Kenny needs to learn from is Downing and to a lesser degree Enrique, if we don't get our first target don't spend massively on the second choice, take stock and see are there other options out there.

As I said if I had Lucas I would have done well. Every other manager has to deal with losing their best players, how a manager reacts to that is huge. Kenny failed miserable with how he reacted and even failed miserable he how he thought going into the season with only one above average midfielder was a smart idea. All of the blame has to go for Kenny, no matter what the money spent was, how he thought the likes of Carroll, Henderson, Downing and Adam would be a big upgrade to our squad I'll never know.

At the end of the day 19 other managers in the league would have far been season then they did if they had a player like Lucas for all of it. However I'd still expect a manager to be able to motivate his players to a far better level than Kenny has.

Leiva · 14-05-2012 06:16PM

Turtyturd wrote: »

Stuff like this might move me into the Kenny out camp.:pac:

I dont think it's that straight forward and unfortunately it seems he is not happy.
The guy himself might be looking for this loan, so I would say it's abroad.

Could Coates be the secret player that hadn't the right mental attitude/strength Comolli was on about ?

Kess73 · 14-05-2012 06:17PM

Leiva wrote: »

Twitter is spreading rumors that Drente is still in Liverpool and not gone home cause due to have talks ... with who I wonder ???

Tranmere I hope.

Jesus Wept · 14-05-2012 06:23PM

Vudgie wrote:

This may be an unpopular position but I truely hope that if Kenny stays on he is advised (told) to change his poor conduct with the press. I don't need to see him giving smart ars* answers every week to the public detriment of the club. I don't necessarily blame him for the Suarez fiasco as I would hope that he was getting PR advice (bad advice) at that time (I emphasise hope!).

Phoenix Park wrote: »

While i think Kenny's been poor with the media for 6 months or so, i won't lose any sleep over it. I'll lose sleep over us being shiite though. Get the team right, thats the main thing.

Kess73 wrote: »

If Kenny stays, then it is on the pitch and league table where I want to see improvements. Winners can get away with giving the media a fair degree of jib. Ferguson is no angel in how he treats the media and he comes out with his own fair share of comments every season that would draw ridicule from the media had another said it.

Kenny was no lover of the media in his first term with us either, but his teams back then were winners like the man himself was on the pitch.

I agree with Vudgie and have said the same previously.

Now I note that some here have expressed the opinion that they don't care what he says in interviews and also their view that the media are tools (words to that effect) who 'deserve it'.
The fact is that it is a poor reflection on the club.

Commercially, this is a popularity contest. You can become more popular by winning things, you can become more popular by being likable but you will certainly become less popular by being hated.

It's not good because it'll only be detrimental in the club's attempts to attract new fans (especially in the U.S) which is obviously important commercially.

Any potential fan who tunes in/happens to catch our managers interviews will find him to be an unlikeable, leering, pointlessly abrasive and an aggressive drooling gob****e. We may as well let Joey Barton handle our interviews.

An example of someone who did the opposite would be Ian Holloway, I wasn't a massive fan tbh but it was clear that he endeared a lot of people to Blackpool when in charge and they gained a lot of goodwill in their battle to stay in the league, more than any other strugglers. Whether this translates into more fans or not I don't know but I would imagine so.

Now I am not suggesting that we need a manager who is cracking jokes or preforming stand up, but on the other side of the coin, they can't be a bitter crank the entire time.
Ferguson may get away with it but that isn't to say it helps Man United, they can afford to get away with it as they are winning things and already have a massive fan base.
When you are losing and being as pointlessly arrogant and abrasive as Kenny, you'll just be generally hated by anyone who isn't already a fan or could potentially become a fan.

I'd compare it to the interviews movie stars have endure. They want to make movies, they make a movie but they have to (if they want to help the movie be a commercially success) attend premiers and give red carpet interviews.
The majority of the questions will be very samey, they'll get to know the interviewers, most of the questions will be banal but they have to smile and answer them if they want to maintain and grow their fanbase. It doesn't matter if the interviewer is someone they don't like, they aren't really talking to the person holding the mic, they are talking to the person at home watching.

If <insert popular actor> is constantly an abrasive dickhead every single time he is interviewed then the general school of thought will be that is a nasty individual and his stock will plummet and that would damage his/her fanbase.

Ok, I have rambled a bit but you get the idea and just because it is something that is very difficult or the effect of which is impossible to accurately measure doesn't mean it isn't true.

You need to play the game, you need a manager who plays the game. He doesn't have to be a PR genius or take it to Tom Hanks levels of likeability or joviality (or whomever you think is very 'likeable) but he can't continue to be so infinitely detestable.

I mean, I am a Liverpool fan and I can't stand his interviews, how do you think the yanks will take to it. He's no John McEnroe in terms of entertainment, he just comes off as a bitter old crank with his sleeves rolled up waiting for a fight.

Jesus Wept · 14-05-2012 06:23PM

Leiva wrote: »

Twitter is spreading rumors that Drente is still in Liverpool and not gone home cause due to have talks ... with who I wonder ???

Suarez.

K-9 · 14-05-2012 06:49PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

As I said if I had Lucas I would have done well. Every other manager has to deal with losing their best players, how a manager reacts to that is huge. Kenny failed miserable with how he reacted and even failed miserable he how he thought going into the season with only one above average midfielder was a smart idea. All of the blame has to go for Kenny, no matter what the money spent was, how he thought the likes of Carroll, Henderson, Downing and Adam would be a big upgrade to our squad I'll never know.

At the end of the day 19 other managers in the league would have far been season then they did if they had a player like Lucas for all of it. However I'd still expect a manager to be able to motivate his players to a far better level than Kenny has.

That is true but it also kind of ignoring the previous 3 years pre Kenny. Lucas is a good example, ideally we should have better back up, Spearing would not have been relied on to develop or would have a been a 3rd choice DM and we wouldn't have played Adam there when Spearing was out. It's a bit like comparing us to Spurs who have had 3 or 4 years of on and off field progress, Kenny is only here a year when you take out the caretaker period. Getting into the top 4 is difficult enough without chopping and changing so much and the financial disadvantage we are recovering from.

As for Kenny being wholly responsible for the transfers, we'll know if he was in the next few days, if he was I think he has no hope of staying.

K-9 · 14-05-2012 06:52PM

Leiva wrote: »

I dont think it's that straight forward and unfortunately it seems he is not happy.
The guy himself might be looking for this loan, so I would say it's abroad.

Could Coates be the secret player that hadn't the right mental attitude/strength Comolli was on about ?

Don't think so, I'd say he was just eased into English football though if we hadn't have taken the cups so seriously, he might have played more.

Downing or Henderson for me.

Chucky the tree · 14-05-2012 07:10PM

K-9 wrote: »

That is true but it also kind of ignoring the previous 3 years pre Kenny. Lucas is a good example, ideally we should have better back up, Spearing would not have been relied on to develop or would have a been a 3rd choice DM and we wouldn't have played Adam there when Spearing was out. It's a bit like comparing us to Spurs who have had 3 or 4 years of on and off field progress, Kenny is only here a year when you take out the caretaker period. Getting into the top 4 is difficult enough without chopping and changing so much and the financial disadvantage we are recovering from.

As for Kenny being wholly responsible for the transfers, we'll know if he was in the next few days, if he was I think he has no hope of staying.

Newcaslte haven't had to much trouble recovering from financial disadvantage. Also if we take out his care-taker period then has a net spend of about £45m+ on pretty poor players. Lucas is a great example, Kenny doesn't bother getting in a back-up DM and also thinks he can play Lucas in every single game, extremely poor management tbh.

Ulysses Gaze · 14-05-2012 07:15PM

If Liverpool do let Dalglish go then they have to replace him with the best available. So who are we looking at apart from the likes of Martinez and co:

For a short term option with winning pedigree & experience? Fabio Capello. In his 60's but he's won it all and knows the English game. A safe pair of hands to get the team back on track and back into the top 4. Can get the best out of players and whilst the football won't be pretty, it'll be effective. He'll cost a fortune to hire though.

For the future? Vilas Boas: Reputation is tarnished by his Chelsea experience but he has the makings of a top-manager.

Back to Benitez? Not my choice but he knows the club, has an affinity for it and has a track record in the English game.

And of course there is the option of trying to lure Guardiola to Anfield. Maybe the chance to revive the fortunes of one of the great European sides would appeal to him. He rates the youth system highly and whilst there will be pressure at Anfield it will pale in comparison to the pressure he was under at Barcelona. It'd be less pressure than trying to replace Ferguson at Utd for instance.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

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