Ireland and personal responsibility

Ghost Buster · 11-05-2012 05:35PM

Sleepy wrote: »

You can do the complete opposite: "Are you trying to break my door?!" said in the right tone of voice will put a small child who's just hurt themselves into absolute *fits* of giggles. Learned that one from my own mother and use it all the time with my kids.

Personally i think that this whole line of reasoning holds as much credibility as those who claim that kids who play violent video games are responsible for Columbine and other such atrocities. I really dont think Sean Quinns Mother slapping his door growing up caused his current financial problems.
Besides. This is a moot point. ITS EVERY BODYS FAULT. AUDREY SAID SO.;)

Dudess · 11-05-2012 05:38PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

We we we we we

I know, it's like the sound of a f'ucking toilet here at times. Appropriate though, seeing as the OP seems to be taking the piss. If not, you can be absolutely sure they don't include themselves, despite the "we" stuff.

I do agree there are some people with an atrocious sense of entitlement - but I'm talking more about those who won't pay their bills/fines/taxes but are happy to let others do so and to use the services these pay for; who for instance park illegally/speed and when clamped/fined it's the bastards they have to pay, not they themselves who are at fault.

But when it comes to much broader concerns (collective ones as opposed to individualised ones, e.g. bills) like the state of the economy, often it actually IS someone else's fault. Ok I didn't complain when times were good, I could leave a job and start a new one whenever I felt like it, I got paid good money for work that you'd get a pittance for these days, so I'm now happy to suck it up a teeny bit, but other than that, I didn't vote FF, didn't live beyond my means, so eh... no, I won't take personal responsibility for stuff that's not my fault and will laugh at lectures from someone who's apparently unaware of the irony of indiscriminately telling a whole faceless collective that they should take "individual" responsibility.

It's furthermore ironic that someone who condemns the "It's always someone else's fault" way of thinking is apportioning blame where it doesn't lie.

Reminds me a bit of the Edmund Burke "All it takes for evil to triumph" thingie which so many think is, loike, REALLY intelligent and deep and stuff, but is effectively saying "Let's blame lots of people who aren't to blame - it's easier than going to the trouble of actually bothering to find out who's really responsible."

ThinkAboutIt · 11-05-2012 05:38PM

Agree 100% with the OP.

Seachmall · 11-05-2012 05:40PM

Dudess wrote: »

If not, you can be absolutely sure they don't include themselves, despite the "we" stuff.

+1

Ghost Buster · 11-05-2012 05:40PM

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Agree 100% with the OP.

Really. Every single person in the country lived beyond their means and so are culpable?
Think about it....
Horse manure sir.....

tayto lover · 11-05-2012 05:42PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Is that you Enda ?

Bruce7 · 11-05-2012 05:45PM

seamus wrote: »

Or in other words, "It's not my fault my kids have no sense of personal responsibility?"

Yes, that's exactly it. Just wait and see how much you care about these concepts when your time comes.

Dudess · 11-05-2012 05:45PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Agree 100% with the OP.

Really. Every single person in the country lived beyond their means and so are culpable?
Think about it....
Horse manure sir.....

Besides ThinkAboutIt themselves of course...

Bruce7 · 11-05-2012 06:07PM

Dudess wrote: »

Besides ThinkAboutIt themselves of course...

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people doing the same thing and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

forfuxsake · 11-05-2012 06:11PM

Bruce7 wrote: »

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

Totally agree Dudess, fúck blaming the elected officials charged with running the country or the developers, banks , cheap credit - it's your fault for buying bread and going for a beer.

That could be the most ridiculous shyte ever posted.

Ghost Buster · 11-05-2012 06:17PM

Bruce7 wrote: »

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people doing the same thing and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

Or. In a nut shell. By living, consuming and working in ireland you are to blame.
Dumbest post since the original post.

forfuxsake · 11-05-2012 06:18PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Or. In a nut shell. By living, consuming and working in ireland you are to blame.
Dumbest post since the original post.

by not dying.

Bruce7 · 11-05-2012 06:18PM

forfuxsake wrote: »

Totally agree Dudess, fúck blaming the elected officials charged with running the country or the developers, banks , cheap credit - it's your fault for buying bread and going for a beer.

That could be the most ridiculous shyte ever posted.

You didn't understand the post. And you probably don't want to. Simple stories are comforting

suicide_circus · 11-05-2012 06:20PM

Agree 100% and it is an insidious phenomenon which pervades every part of our society.
However, it does not help matters when Joe Soap sees the financial and corporate classes making whopper immoral and criminal blunders only for the.political classes to bail them out with Joe Soap's tax dollars. Then the political classes tell Joe Soap to own up and knuckle down. Do as I say, not what I do. When our elites seem immune to taking responsibility, it does not foster an environment in which the proletariat are likely to take personal responsibility for anything.

Dudess · 11-05-2012 06:20PM

Bruce7 wrote: »

Dudess,

You don't have to have lived beyond your means, bought property, voted FF, or been a banker or whatever other stereotypical sin to have made a contribution to the rampant price inflation of 1995 - 2007.

You probably did your bit by doing things you saw as completely blameless like buying bread when the price went up, paying rent when the price went up, changing job to get a pay rise, continuing to drink in the same bar that put up its prices after the euro changeover, maybe buying a house, etc., etc over the course of 10-15 years. Multiply everything you did by 3-4 million people doing the same thing and you get what we got.

You poured more fuel on the flames than some, and less than others, but you did as much as was within your means to. What was the alternative? Be like other people, the Germans maybe. But we are who we are, and we do what we do. You probably won't understand this, but that's ok.

Nice passive-aggressive shyte there - why would I probably not understand this? Are you telling yourself I'm not very bright simply because you disagree with what I've posted?

As you'd have read but obviously ignored, I admitted I have something of a role, and outlined the details explaining what. For that, I am happy to take responsibility. I won't take any more responsibility than I have though.
The bread and milk thing is just silly - and probably an idea dreamed up by people who actually did fuk up big style with money and want others to go down in the sinking ship with them. If you purchased essentials you are not to blame - the alternative would have been to live as a hunter-gatherer. Do YOU feel you owe a considerable debt of responsibility for simply buying e.g. disposable nappies in Dunnes instead of recycling old rags into reusable nappies?

Ghost Buster · 11-05-2012 06:21PM

Bruce7 wrote: »

You didn't understand the post. And you probably don't want to. Simple stories are comforting

No. He does and, like me, disagrees with it as it is stupid.

Ghost Buster · 11-05-2012 06:22PM

Dudess wrote: »

Nice passive-aggressive shyte there - why would I probably not understand this? Are you telling yourself I'm not very bright simply because you disagree with what I've posted?

As you'd have read but obviously ignored, I admitted I have something of a role, and outlined the details explaining what. For that, I am happy to take responsibility. I won't take any more responsibility than I have though.
The bread and milk thing is just silly - and probably an idea dreamed up by people who actually did fuk up big style with money and want others to go down in the sinking ship with them. If you purchased essentials you are not to blame - the alternative would have been to live as a hunter-gatherer. Do YOU feel you owe a considerable debt of responsibility for simply buying e.g. disposable nappies in Dunnes instead of recycling old rags into reusable nappies?

So if Ray Mears and Bear Grylls were Irish Audrey wouldnt have started this thread?
Sigh.......

Richard tea · 11-05-2012 06:24PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem in this country at the moment, and the biggest stumbling block on the road back to stability is the lack of personal responsibility. From the office of the Taoiseach down to the ordinary Joe soap it seems that no-one wants to own up to their mistakes, be it politicians denying they made promises they could keep to the ordinary refusing to acknowledge they took out a mortgage they couldn’t afford or bought too many properties.

It’s always some-one else fault; the bank who bullied you into taking out that mortgage, the Minister who lied during the election campaign etc. Except it isn’t just their fault. We all make personal choices and its time we all take responsibly for them instead of the constant whinging and self-pitying and scape goating.

If we don’t or won’t acknowledge our personal mistakes, in all levels of society, then how can we ever learn from them? How can we ever make steps towards change and recovery if those who made the mistakes don’t accept the part they each played?

Tripe & bull****. No matter who's fault it is you can be guaranteed one thing. Its '' Joe soap'' that pays for it. And you can take that to the bank

ThinkAboutIt · 11-05-2012 06:25PM

Richard tea wrote: »

Tripe & bull****. No matter who's fault it is you can be guaranteed one thing. Its '' Joe soap'' that pays for it. And you can take that to the bank

Yep, it's someone else's fault.

Dudess · 11-05-2012 06:26PM

The "we're all to blame" brigade tend to be incapable of critical thought, or trying to pawn off their own mistakes, or are "I'm all right Jack" types who just say it because they think it sounds clever/virtuous, but in no way actually blame themselves.

Dudess · 11-05-2012 06:28PM

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Richard tea wrote: »

Tripe & bull****. No matter who's fault it is you can be guaranteed one thing. Its '' Joe soap'' that pays for it. And you can take that to the bank

Yep, it's someone else's fault.

You don't really live up to your username tbh.
It looks like you're deciding "Yeah, people - except me - abdicate personal responsibility and that's why Ireland's in its current state" yet don't consider any other angles...

You're pretty much saying it's someone else's fault too. What responsibility are you taking? Besides telling everyone else to take responsibility for stuff they haven't done?

desertcircus · 11-05-2012 06:36PM

It's feasible to hold someone responsible for decisions they could have made differently. Not buying food is not a serious alternative to buying food.

Bruce7 · 11-05-2012 06:40PM

Dudess wrote: »

Nice passive-aggressive shyte there - why would I probably not understand this? Are you telling yourself I'm not very bright simply because you disagree with what I've posted?

As you'd have read but obviously ignored, I admitted I have something of a role, and outlined the details explaining what. For that, I am happy to take responsibility. I won't take any more responsibility than I have though.
The bread and milk thing is just silly - and probably an idea dreamed up by people who actually did fuk up big style with money and want others to go down in the sinking ship with them. If you purchased essentials you are not to blame - the alternative would have been to live as a hunter-gatherer. Do YOU feel you owe a considerable debt of responsibility for simply buying e.g. disposable nappies in Dunnes instead of recycling old rags into reusable nappies?

All the Celtic Tiger was was a period of rampant inflation. Of goods like milk and bread as well as mink coats and diamond rings. Of property like one room bedsits and mansions on Shrewsbury Road. Of services like your salary and mine as well as the price of Merrill Lynch's consultancy fees.

Inflation means rising prices. In order for prices to rise, transactions have to be completed. This means that a buyer and a seller have to agree to complete a transaction.

We can't just blame the sellers. We're the buyers and millions of us willingly paid higher prices for everything day after day, year after year. Billions and billions of individual purchasing decisions all pushing prices the same way. The price of property, the price of goods, the price of services.

Did the sellers take advantage of us? Yes. They still do - look at all the businesses that charge way more here than anywhere else. Why were / are they able to? Because of our culture - and this is the point of this thread. The Germans don't let this kind of thing happen.

You either understand this or you don't.

secretambition · 11-05-2012 06:44PM

Well the main argument for the "we're all to blame" line would be that we elected essentially the same government for 15 years and we could see what their policies were early on, but wanted to believe that after nothing but economic doom and gloom in our history, that the miracle of a never ending boom was real and a ridiculously overperforming property market was sustainable. We only had to look at what happened to our next door neighbour, the UK, in the 90's to see that there would be a severe crash but we preferred to indulge ourselves with dreams of soft landings and continue to support a government promoting bad policies.

ThinkAboutIt · 11-05-2012 06:47PM

Dudess wrote: »

You don't really live up to your username tbh.
It looks like you're deciding "Yeah, people - except me - abdicate personal responsibility and that's why Ireland's in its current state" yet don't consider any other angles...

You're pretty much saying it's someone else's fault too. What responsibility are you taking? Besides telling everyone else to take responsibility for stuff they haven't done?

I take responsibility for my actions. I'm currently paying my debts, currently paying my taxes (without moaning, I understand the need to bring the deficit down) and I can see it is no one's fault bar my own. I like my house, car and belongings though. And I'll pay for them even if in negative equity, sure what difference does it make if you aren't selling.

Dudess · 11-05-2012 06:49PM

Bruce7 wrote: »

We're the buyers and millions of us willingly paid higher prices for everything day after day, year after year. Billions and billions of individual purchasing decisions all pushing prices the same way. The price of property, the price of goods, the price of services.

Did the sellers take advantage of us? Yes. They still do - look at Tesco and other chains charging way more here than anywhere else. Why were / are they able to? Because of our culture - and this is the point of this thread. The Germans don't let this kind of thing happen.

You either understand this or you don't.

Being of the view that it's unfair to use this to apportion a large amount of blame doesn't mean you don't understand it. If you could lose the condescending tone - provoked by nothing - it would be cool too, cheers. What do the Germans do to prevent such price increases?

HazDanz · 11-05-2012 06:50PM

FCUK YOU DEPUTY STAG!! :mad:

Dudess · 11-05-2012 06:51PM

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

You don't really live up to your username tbh.
It looks like you're deciding "Yeah, people - except me - abdicate personal responsibility and that's why Ireland's in its current state" yet don't consider any other angles...

You're pretty much saying it's someone else's fault too. What responsibility are you taking? Besides telling everyone else to take responsibility for stuff they haven't done?

I take responsibility for my actions. I'm currently paying my debts, currently paying my taxes (without moaning, I understand the need to bring the deficit down)

I'm the very same but I won't just bend over and say we're all to blame for the economy being in the toilet.

ThinkAboutIt · 11-05-2012 06:57PM

Dudess wrote: »

I'm the very same but I won't just bend over and say we're all to blame for the economy being in the toilet.

Well no one made me go into debt, so it's all my fault. Useless you lose your job, the economy doesn't really effect your live too much - bar the price of petrol etc, but I can live with a few extra cent on it and so be it. That's life, people tend to make a bigger deal of everything than it actually is.

secretambition · 11-05-2012 06:58PM

The extent of blame definitely varies hugely. A property developer who racked up €millionns of debt that the taxpayer is now dealing with, is far more to blame than the ordinary person who went a bit too mad shopping. But I do think that while people who willingly purchased expensive bread and milk are not the worst culprits by far, the simple weekly grocery shopping is indicative of the problematic attitude at a micro level. I'll give an example. I lived with a foreign housemate and we once went grocery shopping together and she was appalled that someone would pay an extra euro to buy pre-chopped tomatoes, she would do it herself in seconds. If everyone said that, that product wouldn't exist. Many people were too complicit in paying for whatever rip-offs were going which contributed to spiralling prices.

Ireland and personal responsibility

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