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No Side Tactics

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Comments

  • #62
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    The fact that it is largely official sector does not mean we cannot get a write-down/off. Much of this is govt-to-govt lending. Govts come and go. We need to play hardball like Hollande and the German parliament.

    There is a rule, in the TFEU in Art 125 which states that one State or EU body cannot be made responsible for the debts of another. This rule is what prevents the official sector from granting us any debt relief, even if they were so minded, which they are not. Art 125 means that so long as we remain in the EU, we have to pay our debts to our official creditors. All of them.

    No amount of hardball playing is going to change this, and I think you're going to be sorely disappointed by your great expectations of M Hollande.


  • #63
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    The fact that it is largely official sector does not mean we cannot get a write-down/off. Much of this is govt-to-govt lending. Govts come and go. We need to play hardball like Hollande and the German parliament.

    Dear Spain. Do you mind awfully if we offload a truckload of debt onto your tax payers. Yours Sincerely, Ireland.

    Edit: Oversimplistic - I retract that attempt at irony or whatever it is...


  • #64
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    There is a rule, in the TFEU in Art 125 which states that one State or EU body cannot be made responsible for the debts of another. This rule is what prevents the official sector from granting us any debt relief, even if they were so minded, which they are not. Art 125 means that so long as we remain in the EU, we have to pay our debts to our official creditors. All of them.

    No amount of hardball playing is going to change this, and I think you're going to be sorely disappointed by your great expectations of M Hollande.
    We should demand that Article 125 be amended to write-off down the debt and should refuse ratification until then.


  • #65
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    We should demand that Article 125 be amended to write-off down the debt and should refuse ratification until then.

    Pfft!

    Not ratifying the stability treaty hurts us. Not ratifying the stability treaty does not hurt Germany.

    I'm going to sit here and hold my breath until you decide to vote yes*


    *Make any difference to you? Thought not but I'm turning blue here. Not the best possible negotiating tactic


  • #66
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    Pfft!

    Not ratifying the stability treaty hurts us. Not ratifying the stability treaty does not hurt Germany.

    I'm going to sit here and hold my breath until you decide to vote yes*


    *Make any difference to you? Thought not but I'm turning blue here. Not the best possible negotiating tactic
    It's called the Fiscal Compact - not the Stability Treaty.


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  • #67
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    We should demand that Article 125 be amended to write-off down the debt and should refuse ratification until then.

    Oh come on! I thought I was being a bit silly in my last post but evidently I wasn't! You want another country to be responsible for our debt position? Which one? I'd be happy for Goldman Sachs, Koch Bros et al to take a big kicking given my suspicions that it was them doing a lot of happy-go-lucky lending to idiot institutions like Anglo "what can possibly go wrong" Irish but other countries is a bit much. Even Greece wasn't even attempting to ask that and they're stuffed.

    I'm going to scream and scream until I'm sick. And I can....


  • #68
    timbyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭timbyr


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    It's called the Fiscal Compact - not the Stability Treaty.

    Actually it is titled TREATY ON STABILITY, COORDINATION AND GOVERNANCE IN THE ECONOMIC AND MONETARY UNION


  • #69
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,246 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    beeftotheheels wrote: »
    There is a rule, in the TFEU in Art 125 which states that one State or EU body cannot be made responsible for the debts of another. This rule is what prevents the official sector from granting us any debt relief, even if they were so minded, which they are not. Art 125 means that so long as we remain in the EU, we have to pay our debts to our official creditors. All of them.

    No amount of hardball playing is going to change this, and I think you're going to be sorely disappointed by your great expectations of M Hollande.

    I think you'd be incredibly surprised at what can be accomplished when there are lawyers involved. Look at NAMA - entirely against the spirit of the law, but entirely within the letter of it due to the figleaf of 51% private ownership - those private owners being false flags for the government.

    There's nothing that would prevent a treaty outside of the EU structures, or the creation of a supranational or privately owned but state/ECB funded structure which would serve as the vehicle for a real bailout.

    Now - I do not believe Germany want to do this, but should they wish to, then a way will be found. They'll just throw lawyers at it until no one even remembers there being an Article 125.


  • #70
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    Sand wrote: »
    There's nothing that would prevent a treaty outside of the EU structures, or the creation of a supranational or privately owned but state/ECB funded structure which would serve as the vehicle for a real bailout.

    Like the ESM turning into a bank of sorts, which was suggested by someone on TV. Spain has being playing some games too with their banks borrowing from the ecb and then buying govmt bonds to fund the govmts bailout of banks. I see that ending well.


  • #71
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Any chance we can start the F.C. poll again based on what we have learned during the campaign and events that some say are "game-changers" like the French/Greek election results? I am on the no side but I still feel this way.


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  • #72
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,717 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Ozymandius2011 wrote: »
    Any chance we can start the F.C. poll again based on what we have learned during the campaign and events that some say are "game-changers" like the French/Greek election results? I am on the no side but I still feel this way.


    Are you still calling it the "Fiscal Compact"?
    timbyr wrote: »
    Actually it is titled TREATY ON STABILITY, COORDINATION AND GOVERNANCE IN THE ECONOMIC AND MONETARY UNION


    Did you miss this link? If people posting on this thread cannot learn from their mistakes, reject the SF/ULA axis of ignorance, and agree to vote yes, what is the point of re-opening the poll?


  • #73
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭meglome


    meglome wrote: »
    After posting on the Journal for the past few weeks about the Fiscal Compact I just wanted to share my observations on how the No side (for the most part) is operating.

    No side tactics…
    1. Pull on the heart strings.
    2. Try to drum up nationalistic fervour.
    3. Claim the person is a sheep, an idiot or whatever other name they fancy.
    4. Scaremongering. But they *are* stealing our babies.
    5. Blame anyone else, especially the Germans. (Often included with xenophobic mentions of Nazis, Fascists etc).
    6. Claim the person is being paid for their opinions.

    Don't me wrong I'm not saying this Fiscal Compact is the best thing ever, far from it. But it's a sad reflection that the majority (IMO) of the No side are stooping to these.

    I think given Sam Vines post about No side lies on the Lisbon treaty it's really doesn't reflect well on the level of debate generally.

    Actually I'm going to add another one.

    No side tactics…
    1. Pull on the heart strings.
    2. Try to drum up nationalistic fervour.
    3. Claim the person is a sheep, an idiot or whatever other name they fancy.
    4. Scaremongering. But they *are* stealing our babies.
    5. Blame anyone else, especially the Germans. (Often included with xenophobic mentions of Nazis, Fascists etc).
    6. Claim the person is being paid for their opinions.
    7. Claim bias at every possible opportunity.

    No 7. is interesting as especially SF are great at claiming bias but their default position on every treaty with Europe is a no.


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