Potential court action for people who don't pay household charge

Dannyboy83 · 03-05-2012 11:36PM #1

The Environment Minister Phil Hogan has said people who do not pay their household charge over the coming months face court action.

Mr Hogan said 57% of people have paid the €100 charge, and the rest will get letters of reminder to pay over the summer months.

He told the Dáil that if people do not pay up, they risk having to go to court.

"Ultimately, people have to decide whether they want to comply with the law or not, and if they don't comply with the law, they will face potential litigation," he said.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hogan-potential-court-action-for-people-who-dont-pay-household-charge-550127.html#ixzz1tqfXa4B5

This is beginning to become a bit silly.

What are they going to do?
Send people to jail for a week? -Many of whom would wear it as a badge of honour-

OK.......... And then what?

Perhaps Hogan should just admit defeat and deduct the charge at source next year?
He's beginning to seem like a tin pot dictator.

liammur · 03-05-2012 11:40PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This is beginning to become a bit silly.

What are they going to do?
Send people to jail for a week? -Many of whom would wear it as a badge of honour-

OK.......... And then what?

Perhaps Hogan should just admit defeat and deduct the charge at source next year?
He's beginning to seem like a tin pot dictator.

What happens if you don't pay your car tax?

Monty Burnz · 03-05-2012 11:41PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This is beginning to become a bit silly.

What are they going to do?
Send people to jail for a week? -Many of whom would wear it as a badge of honour-

OK.......... And then what?

Perhaps Hogan should just admit defeat and deduct the charge at source next year?
He's beginning to seem like a tin pot dictator.

Didn't they say months ago that they'd just take it plus a fine out of your income at source?

sdanseo · 03-05-2012 11:42PM

liammur wrote: »

What happens if you don't pay your car tax?

The car get's taken off you.

Hardly likely that they're going to confiscate houses over a €100 charge. Besides, the impound fee would be huge and they're bastards to get on the back of a flatbed.

Dannyboy83 · 03-05-2012 11:43PM

liammur wrote: »

What happens if you don't pay your car tax?

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

slimjimmc · 03-05-2012 11:56PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Didn't they say months ago that they'd just take it plus a fine out of your income at source?

How would they do that if you haven't registered your details and PPS against the property?

Suryavarman · 04-05-2012 12:02AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

Didn't a large number of the rioters end up in jail?

RichardAnd · 04-05-2012 12:39AM

Suryavarman wrote: »

Didn't a large number of the rioters end up in jail?

Those rioters were in jail for smashing up businesses, stealing and other mindless acts, not for protesting. There is a world of difference between rioting and not paying a 100 euro tax.

Suryavarman · 04-05-2012 12:45AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Those rioters were in jail for smashing up businesses, stealing and other mindless acts, not for protesting. There is a world of difference between rioting and not paying a 100 euro tax.

O I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out that the comparison mightn't be apt since a lot of the rioters were jailed and that the comparison would indicate that there is potential for people refusing to pay the household charge to end up in jail.

RichardAnd · 04-05-2012 12:49AM

Suryavarman wrote: »

O I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out that the comparison mightn't be apt since a lot of the rioters were jailed and that the comparison would indicate that there is potential for people refusing to pay the household charge to end up in jail.

True but I just can't see mass numbers of people ending up in jail/prison over this. Wardens are already refusing to take people into prisons over silly offences and besides, we're talking about a few hundred thousand people here, not a few hundred rioters. I just can't see it happening myself.

Suryavarman · 04-05-2012 12:57AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

True but I just can't see mass numbers of people ending up in jail/prison over this. Wardens are already refusing to take people into prisons over silly offences and besides, we're talking about a few hundred thousand people here, not a few hundred rioters. I just can't see it happening myself.

Well the first port of call for not paying the charge is a day in court and a fine. If they don't pay the fine then by the letter of the law they would go to prison I think.

I was forgetting about prison overcrowding for a minute though

. So yeah you're more than likely correct that nobody will be put in jail over this.

I wonder what will happen though.

Cedrus · 04-05-2012 01:18AM

It'll be the same as the anti bin charges protest a decade ago, a few prominent leaders will be jailed the rest of the cheerleaders will quietly pay (or it will be found out that they paid it ages ago) and thousands of people who can't afford it will get hit for fines and back charges.

It's a criminal offence not to register, and any TD with a criminal record has to stand down, so the ULA will bang their drums about it but none of them will be caught out.

Am Chile · 04-05-2012 02:06AM

Has anyone noticed the pattern. for a while hogan is quiet then he issues a threat, first it was the threat to trace people via esb bills/records, then it was the threat of sending council workers door to door for payment, then came the next threat of not being given a tax clearance cert for non payment, now its this weeks threat of bringing people to court, I think its pretty much safe to say that the household tax isn,t going as planned phil hogan.

mistermouse · 04-05-2012 05:15AM

I'd imagine that they will start to reduce funding to counties that have payment issues, obviously hitting even those who paid unfairly in those counties.

They will use it as an excuse for non proper funding of Local Authorities in any case and will do nothing in the interim to make sure that funding that is issued is spent well, another gripe of many payers and protesters alike

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2012 09:02AM

mistermouse wrote: »

They will use it as an excuse for non proper funding of Local Authorities in any case and will do nothing in the interim to make sure that funding that is issued is spent well, another gripe of many payers and protesters alike

Isn't it the role of citizens to ensure that their local councils spend the money well? You get the democracy you deserve.

KarmaBaby · 04-05-2012 09:21AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

Actually about 1 Million households have yet to register and in all counties there is a 50% or greater non-compliance rate.

In Donegal a whopping 73% have not registered.

No one will go to jail. The tax will be defeated.

KarmaBaby · 04-05-2012 09:23AM

mistermouse wrote: »

I'd imagine that they will start to reduce funding to counties that have payment issues, obviously hitting even those who paid unfairly in those counties.

They will use it as an excuse for non proper funding of Local Authorities in any case and will do nothing in the interim to make sure that funding that is issued is spent well, another gripe of many payers and protesters alike

They've already reduced funding considerably for local authorities, and the household tax wasn't going towards that funding anyway. It was being use to pay banking debts.

There is no chance that they would "punish" local authorities for non collection as this would spark a revolt from local councillors in the same political parties.

It's just another idle threat.

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2012 09:34AM

KarmaBaby wrote: »

Actually about 1 Million households have yet to register and in all counties there is a 50% or greater non-compliance rate.

In Donegal a whopping 73% have not registered.

No one will go to jail. The tax will be defeated.

They will just attach the earnings or SW of those who don't pay it, and they could also put a lien on properties so that it will be taken out of them when they are sold.

liammur · 04-05-2012 09:43AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

So why should we pay car tax and not pay property charges?

Davidth88 · 04-05-2012 09:44AM

So they ( Phil Hogan ) is saying they are going to write to people who have not registered/paid the charge

Would this the same people they claimed they could not send bills to because they didn't know who/where they were .

This is the biggest farce I have ever seen

Phil Hogan really specialises in making him self look arrogant , stupid and downright mad.

Statistician · 04-05-2012 09:59AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They will just attach the earnings or SW of those who don't pay it, and they could also put a lien on properties so that it will be taken out of them when they are sold.

They wanted to set up a database of property owners so that they could administer AEOs and other nasties that they may dream up. Unfortunately for them, this attempt has failed miserably. They can't do AEOs unless they know who the house owner is.

People of Ireland: 1
government: 0

Statistician · 04-05-2012 10:02AM

liammur wrote: »

So why should we pay car tax and not pay property charges?

Property charges were brought in after 2008, so they are inherently unfair.
The money will be misappropriated and it is the duty of Irish citizens not to pay.

Only by not paying will we see real change.

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2012 10:05AM

Statistician wrote: »

They wanted to set up a database of property owners so that they could administer AEOs and other nasties that they may dream up. Unfortunately for them, this attempt has failed miserably. They can't do AEOs unless they know who the house owner is.

People of Ireland: 1
government: 0

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

Dannyboy83 · 04-05-2012 10:06AM

KarmaBaby wrote: »

No one will go to jail. The tax will be defeated.

I can't see the tax being defeated - they need the money and they are going to get it somehow. Probably at source.

But a bit of adult maturity from Phil Hogan really wouldn't go astray.

It's starting to remind me of Moby Dick.
You would think a colleague would pull him aside and say "Listen Phil, don't take take this personally, but here's a suggestion..."

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2012 10:07AM

Statistician wrote: »

Property charges were brought in after 2008, so they are inherently unfair.

Oh, ok then. Also, I declare taxes starting with the letter 'B' and anything introduced on a Monday to be inherently unfair.

TwoShedsJackson · 04-05-2012 10:09AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

What's the rationale for not using these sources to send bills for the tax in the first place? Why did they insist on going the 'voluntary registration' route?

Dannyboy83 · 04-05-2012 10:12AM

liammur wrote: »

So why should we pay car tax and not pay property charges?

I don't know..........I never said we shouldn't pay property charges.

First word which springs to mind would be 'ringfencing'.

But this is Ireland.

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2012 10:15AM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

What's the rationale for not using these sources to send bills for the tax in the first place? Why did they insist on going the 'voluntary registration' route?

I suppose because it's cheaper for the taxpayer if they don't have to set hundreds of civil servants digging up this stuff, and one of the most important criteria for any tax is that it is efficient to levy it. If it costs them €50 to dig out the info for a €100 tax, it's not exactly good value for the taxpayer.

Of course, money lost in digging out the info due to non-payers will just have to be raised or cut from somewhere else. Cue howls of outrage over longer waits for hospital appointments etc...

Statistician · 04-05-2012 10:18AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

No they can't. There are two huge problems with this:
- Data protection
- The data would not be 'correct'. Utility bills, for example, do not tell you who actually owns the house

This is why they want their database.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

These people in the Dail do not represent me or my views. The members of the irish government are only in it for themselves. This is the unfortunate nature of Irish 'democracy'.

Statistician · 04-05-2012 10:23AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Oh, ok then. Also, I declare taxes starting with the letter 'B' and anything introduced on a Monday to be inherently unfair.

Why? I can not see any logic with that.

In September 2008 the Irish government guaranteed the Irish banks. This was the turning point. Public money being blatantly misappropriated. I will resist any new taxes or charges introduced after Sept 2008

Monty Burnz · 04-05-2012 10:23AM

Statistician wrote: »

No they can't. There are two huge problems with this:
- Data protection
- The data would not be 'correct'. Utility bills, for example, do not tell you who actually owns the house

This is why they want their database.

Data protection is only a 'problem' when it suits them. Even if it were a problem, can you think of any way a government could get around a legal problem? Because I can...

Aside from that, the Land Registry is accessible to anyone:

3. Certified Copy Folio/Title Map
The folios and title maps of the Register constitute a public record and any person may apply to inspect or obtain a copy folio/title plan, on payment of the appropriate fee.
If you know the relevant folio number you can apply for a copy by downloading and completing the Application Form for Copy Folio (fee €6) or Application Form for Copy Folio/Title Map (fee €25 or €60 for a map showing appurtenant rights of way and/or other “special features” relating to the lands) and sending the completed form together with a cheque/postal order for the appropriate fee to:
Customer Service Unit
Property Registration Authority
Chancery Street
Dublin 7
If you don’t know the relevant folio number you can apply for a mapping search or names index search to be carried out.

Potential court action for people who don't pay household charge

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