Potential court action for people who don't pay household charge

Dannyboy83

The Environment Minister Phil Hogan has said people who do not pay their household charge over the coming months face court action.

Mr Hogan said 57% of people have paid the €100 charge, and the rest will get letters of reminder to pay over the summer months.

He told the Dáil that if people do not pay up, they risk having to go to court.

"Ultimately, people have to decide whether they want to comply with the law or not, and if they don't comply with the law, they will face potential litigation," he said.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hogan-potential-court-action-for-people-who-dont-pay-household-charge-550127.html#ixzz1tqfXa4B5

This is beginning to become a bit silly.

What are they going to do?
Send people to jail for a week? -Many of whom would wear it as a badge of honour-

OK.......... And then what?



Perhaps Hogan should just admit defeat and deduct the charge at source next year?
He's beginning to seem like a tin pot dictator.

liammur

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This is beginning to become a bit silly.

What are they going to do?
Send people to jail for a week? -Many of whom would wear it as a badge of honour-

OK.......... And then what?



Perhaps Hogan should just admit defeat and deduct the charge at source next year?
He's beginning to seem like a tin pot dictator.

What happens if you don't pay your car tax?

Monty Burnz

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This is beginning to become a bit silly.

What are they going to do?
Send people to jail for a week? -Many of whom would wear it as a badge of honour-

OK.......... And then what?



Perhaps Hogan should just admit defeat and deduct the charge at source next year?
He's beginning to seem like a tin pot dictator.

Didn't they say months ago that they'd just take it plus a fine out of your income at source?

sdanseo

liammur wrote: »

What happens if you don't pay your car tax?

The car get's taken off you.

Hardly likely that they're going to confiscate houses over a €100 charge. Besides, the impound fee would be huge and they're bastards to get on the back of a flatbed.

Dannyboy83

liammur wrote: »

What happens if you don't pay your car tax?

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

slimjimmc

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Didn't they say months ago that they'd just take it plus a fine out of your income at source?

How would they do that if you haven't registered your details and PPS against the property?

Suryavarman

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

Didn't a large number of the rioters end up in jail?

RichardAnd

Suryavarman wrote: »

Didn't a large number of the rioters end up in jail?

Those rioters were in jail for smashing up businesses, stealing and other mindless acts, not for protesting. There is a world of difference between rioting and not paying a 100 euro tax.

Suryavarman

RichardAnd wrote: »

Those rioters were in jail for smashing up businesses, stealing and other mindless acts, not for protesting. There is a world of difference between rioting and not paying a 100 euro tax.

O I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out that the comparison mightn't be apt since a lot of the rioters were jailed and that the comparison would indicate that there is potential for people refusing to pay the household charge to end up in jail.

RichardAnd

Suryavarman wrote: »

O I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out that the comparison mightn't be apt since a lot of the rioters were jailed and that the comparison would indicate that there is potential for people refusing to pay the household charge to end up in jail.

True but I just can't see mass numbers of people ending up in jail/prison over this. Wardens are already refusing to take people into prisons over silly offences and besides, we're talking about a few hundred thousand people here, not a few hundred rioters. I just can't see it happening myself.

Suryavarman

RichardAnd wrote: »

True but I just can't see mass numbers of people ending up in jail/prison over this. Wardens are already refusing to take people into prisons over silly offences and besides, we're talking about a few hundred thousand people here, not a few hundred rioters. I just can't see it happening myself.

Well the first port of call for not paying the charge is a day in court and a fine. If they don't pay the fine then by the letter of the law they would go to prison I think.

I was forgetting about prison overcrowding for a minute though . So yeah you're more than likely correct that nobody will be put in jail over this.

I wonder what will happen though.

Cedrus

It'll be the same as the anti bin charges protest a decade ago, a few prominent leaders will be jailed the rest of the cheerleaders will quietly pay (or it will be found out that they paid it ages ago) and thousands of people who can't afford it will get hit for fines and back charges.

It's a criminal offence not to register, and any TD with a criminal record has to stand down, so the ULA will bang their drums about it but none of them will be caught out.

Am Chile

Has anyone noticed the pattern. for a while hogan is quiet then he issues a threat, first it was the threat to trace people via esb bills/records, then it was the threat of sending council workers door to door for payment, then came the next threat of not being given a tax clearance cert for non payment, now its this weeks threat of bringing people to court, I think its pretty much safe to say that the household tax isn,t going as planned phil hogan.

mistermouse

I'd imagine that they will start to reduce funding to counties that have payment issues, obviously hitting even those who paid unfairly in those counties.

They will use it as an excuse for non proper funding of Local Authorities in any case and will do nothing in the interim to make sure that funding that is issued is spent well, another gripe of many payers and protesters alike

Monty Burnz

mistermouse wrote: »

They will use it as an excuse for non proper funding of Local Authorities in any case and will do nothing in the interim to make sure that funding that is issued is spent well, another gripe of many payers and protesters alike

Isn't it the role of citizens to ensure that their local councils spend the money well? You get the democracy you deserve.

KarmaBaby

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

Actually about 1 Million households have yet to register and in all counties there is a 50% or greater non-compliance rate.

In Donegal a whopping 73% have not registered.

No one will go to jail. The tax will be defeated.

KarmaBaby

mistermouse wrote: »

I'd imagine that they will start to reduce funding to counties that have payment issues, obviously hitting even those who paid unfairly in those counties.

They will use it as an excuse for non proper funding of Local Authorities in any case and will do nothing in the interim to make sure that funding that is issued is spent well, another gripe of many payers and protesters alike

They've already reduced funding considerably for local authorities, and the household tax wasn't going towards that funding anyway. It was being use to pay banking debts.

There is no chance that they would "punish" local authorities for non collection as this would spark a revolt from local councillors in the same political parties.

It's just another idle threat.

Monty Burnz

KarmaBaby wrote: »

Actually about 1 Million households have yet to register and in all counties there is a 50% or greater non-compliance rate.

In Donegal a whopping 73% have not registered.

No one will go to jail. The tax will be defeated.

They will just attach the earnings or SW of those who don't pay it, and they could also put a lien on properties so that it will be taken out of them when they are sold.

liammur

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

An individual or 700,000 of them?

It's a bit like an individual stealing from a shop vs. the England 2011 riots, isn't it?

So why should we pay car tax and not pay property charges?

Davidth88

So they ( Phil Hogan ) is saying they are going to write to people who have not registered/paid the charge

Would this the same people they claimed they could not send bills to because they didn't know who/where they were .

This is the biggest farce I have ever seen

Phil Hogan really specialises in making him self look arrogant , stupid and downright mad.

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They will just attach the earnings or SW of those who don't pay it, and they could also put a lien on properties so that it will be taken out of them when they are sold.

They wanted to set up a database of property owners so that they could administer AEOs and other nasties that they may dream up. Unfortunately for them, this attempt has failed miserably. They can't do AEOs unless they know who the house owner is.

People of Ireland: 1
government: 0

Statistician

liammur wrote: »

So why should we pay car tax and not pay property charges?

Property charges were brought in after 2008, so they are inherently unfair.
The money will be misappropriated and it is the duty of Irish citizens not to pay.

Only by not paying will we see real change.

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

They wanted to set up a database of property owners so that they could administer AEOs and other nasties that they may dream up. Unfortunately for them, this attempt has failed miserably. They can't do AEOs unless they know who the house owner is.

People of Ireland: 1
government: 0

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

Dannyboy83

KarmaBaby wrote: »

No one will go to jail. The tax will be defeated.

I can't see the tax being defeated - they need the money and they are going to get it somehow. Probably at source.

But a bit of adult maturity from Phil Hogan really wouldn't go astray.

It's starting to remind me of Moby Dick.
You would think a colleague would pull him aside and say "Listen Phil, don't take take this personally, but here's a suggestion..."

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

Property charges were brought in after 2008, so they are inherently unfair.

Oh, ok then. Also, I declare taxes starting with the letter 'B' and anything introduced on a Monday to be inherently unfair.

TwoShedsJackson

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

What's the rationale for not using these sources to send bills for the tax in the first place? Why did they insist on going the 'voluntary registration' route?

Dannyboy83

liammur wrote: »

So why should we pay car tax and not pay property charges?

I don't know..........I never said we shouldn't pay property charges.

First word which springs to mind would be 'ringfencing'.

But this is Ireland.

Monty Burnz

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

What's the rationale for not using these sources to send bills for the tax in the first place? Why did they insist on going the 'voluntary registration' route?

I suppose because it's cheaper for the taxpayer if they don't have to set hundreds of civil servants digging up this stuff, and one of the most important criteria for any tax is that it is efficient to levy it. If it costs them €50 to dig out the info for a €100 tax, it's not exactly good value for the taxpayer.

Of course, money lost in digging out the info due to non-payers will just have to be raised or cut from somewhere else. Cue howls of outrage over longer waits for hospital appointments etc...

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

No they can't. There are two huge problems with this:
- Data protection
- The data would not be 'correct'. Utility bills, for example, do not tell you who actually owns the house

This is why they want their database.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

These people in the Dail do not represent me or my views. The members of the irish government are only in it for themselves. This is the unfortunate nature of Irish 'democracy'.

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Oh, ok then. Also, I declare taxes starting with the letter 'B' and anything introduced on a Monday to be inherently unfair.

Why? I can not see any logic with that.

In September 2008 the Irish government guaranteed the Irish banks. This was the turning point. Public money being blatantly misappropriated. I will resist any new taxes or charges introduced after Sept 2008

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

No they can't. There are two huge problems with this:
- Data protection
- The data would not be 'correct'. Utility bills, for example, do not tell you who actually owns the house

This is why they want their database.

Data protection is only a 'problem' when it suits them. Even if it were a problem, can you think of any way a government could get around a legal problem? Because I can...

Aside from that, the Land Registry is accessible to anyone:

3. Certified Copy Folio/Title Map
The folios and title maps of the Register constitute a public record and any person may apply to inspect or obtain a copy folio/title plan, on payment of the appropriate fee.
If you know the relevant folio number you can apply for a copy by downloading and completing the Application Form for Copy Folio (fee €6) or Application Form for Copy Folio/Title Map (fee €25 or €60 for a map showing appurtenant rights of way and/or other “special features” relating to the lands) and sending the completed form together with a cheque/postal order for the appropriate fee to:
Customer Service Unit
Property Registration Authority
Chancery Street
Dublin 7
If you don’t know the relevant folio number you can apply for a mapping search or names index search to be carried out.

crusher000

Bye bye Phil, like carbon taxes etc. these are policies placed upon us by failed governments and politicans that we must endure long after they've left government. So I'll hang in their for the next two years until the next election and not vote for them like I didn't the last time. Yawn yawn court jails etc. heard it all before. This government talks to us like their the headmaster and we're little dis-obient children. I hate all our politicians equally.

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

In September 2008 the Irish government guaranteed the Irish banks. This was the turning point. Public money being blatantly misappropriated. I will resist any new taxes or charges introduced after Sept 2008

Great. We will all pay extra to make up for you dodging taxes so.

ResearchWill

Cedrus wrote: »

It'll be the same as the anti bin charges protest a decade ago, a few prominent leaders will be jailed the rest of the cheerleaders will quietly pay (or it will be found out that they paid it ages ago) and thousands of people who can't afford it will get hit for fines and back charges.

It's a criminal offence not to register, and any TD with a criminal record has to stand down, so the ULA will bang their drums about it but none of them will be caught out.

A TD is only disqualified from holding office if he convicted and receives a term of imprisonment exceeding 6 months. (Section 41 Electoral Act 1992) I believe that the Household Charge Act only allows for fines, so there is no problem with any TD being convicted.

crusher000

Good to see some actual facts being quoted rather than waffle.

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Great. We will all pay extra to make up for you dodging taxes so.

You are paying extra because of decisions the FF/FG government have made. You are paying money to private individuals, with unsecured debt who are (probably) richer than you are.

By not paying these taxes, I am taking all the risks on your behalf. You should be grateful.

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Data protection is only a 'problem' when it suits them. Even if it were a problem, can you think of any way a government could get around a legal problem? Because I can...

Aside from that, the Land Registry is accessible to anyone:

Data protection laws are there for a reason.

Do you think these should also be disregarded? At this stage we might as well just bring in a full jack boot police state and have done with it.

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

Data protection laws are there for a reason.

Do you think these should also be disregarded? At this stage we might as well just bring in a full jack boot police state and have done with it.

Wait a minute, why are you trying to change this into a philosophical argument?

You said that they couldn't figure out who owned what due to data protection legislation. I said they could with the land registry data, and that they could also change DP legislation if they wanted to.

So are you conceding the point?

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Wait a minute, why are you trying to change this into a philosophical argument?

You said that they couldn't figure out who owned what due to data protection legislation. I said they could with the land registry data, and that they could also change DP legislation if they wanted to.

So are you conceding the point?

No, I'm not conceding the point.

If they use land registry data to administer the household charge, then they would be in contravention of Data Protection, because the data is being used for a different purpose to why it was originally collected. There is also the technical issue as to how clean,accurate and accessible the data is, and if all the relevant fields are there.

Do you not think that if this government could do this that they wouldn't have done so already?


Do you believe data protection legislation should be changed so that data can be used for any purpose once it it collected?

KarmaBaby

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They can check the land registry, electoral register, utility bills, the Revenue Commissioners etc., whatever. It's kind of hard to hide a house.

I believe that due to laws Under the freedom of information act the government can only access utility bills from the ESB which in itself does not prove ownership of a house. In fact it is already evident that, while the government has established that there are 1.85 Million households liable for registration, there is no database of the owners of those properties available.

The nature of the registration process should have told you this already. Households must register for the tax. If the government knew exactly who was liable, they'd just send them the bill. No registration required.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'd point out that the 'people of Ireland' and their representatives in the Dail are on the same side against sovereign default, so at best this is an own-goal.

"on the same side"?

The tax is being brought in under the terms of the agreement with troika which in itself is a vehicle for those organisations to funnel funds from the irish tax payer to cover debts incurred by European banks.

Even if you didn't agree that this was the case, it is far from an "own goal" to oppose a tax which in clearly unfair in its implementation, since it is not means tested in any way in terms of the value of the property or the income of the property owner.

Paying the tax would be an own-goal, and would allow this government a foot in the door to grow another unfair form of taxation. The ESRI, the unofficial think tank for FG has already stated that the tax is likely to increase sharply to to an average of 1000 euro (when water charges are included) per household.

Paying an unjust tax that can be defeated is just stupid and its clear that majority are opposed to it. Many of those that did pay, only did so out of fear; such is the nature of the governments tactics in introducing new taxes, treaties whatver...

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

No, I'm not conceding the point.

If they use land registry data to administer the household charge, then they would be in contravention of Data Protection, because the data is being used for a different purpose to why it was originally collected. There is also the technical issue as to how clean,accurate and accessible the data is, and if all the relevant fields are there.

The data in the land registry is there to show who owns what property. That is exactly what the government would use it for. The only 'fields' they would require would be the address and the name of the owner. The land registry is accurate.

Statistician wrote: »

Do you not think that if this government could do this that they wouldn't have done so already?

I imagine it will involve a lot more expense to do it that way.

Statistician wrote: »

Do you believe data protection legislation should be changed so that data can be used for any purpose once it it collected?

I would be happy to see it changed to catch criminals and tax-dodgers.

KarmaBaby

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I imagine it will involve a lot more expense to do it that way.

Pretty lame response that Monty. Not doing this has already cost the government €100 Million in uncollected taxation. How the **** could it have been more expensive to refer to the land registry?

gurramok

Most of the 43% who have not paid will probably get nervous for a day in court. A possible conviction(non-custodial) and fine will not go down well with their employers, this is where it will hurt and I reckon the route they will use to get compliance. Is it worth losing your job over non-payment?

Monty Burnz

KarmaBaby wrote: »

Pretty lame response that Monty. Not doing this has already cost the government €100 Million in uncollected taxation. How the **** could it have been more expensive to refer to the land registry?

I explained earlier in the thread. What's the point of inflicting a tax that costs a lot to collect? (this is why you don't pay any import duties on things costing less than €25 or whatever)

This protest will just mean that a fortune will be wasted in gathering the money - a fortune that will have to be cut or taxed from somewhere else. The amount of money the government repays the ECB will be the same anyway.

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The data in the land registry is there to show who owns what property. That is exactly what the government would use it for. The only 'fields' they would require would be the address and the name of the owner. The land registry is accurate.

Would they need PPSN for example? Could there be cases where the person liable is not reflected in the land registry database? You are vastly underestimating this.

The government would be using this data to find out who owns the property, but to also levy a charge.

I would be happy to see it changed to catch criminals and tax-dodgers.

People who refuse to pay unfair taxes and charges are not criminals or tax-dodgers in my opinion. In my opinion, 'unvouched expenses' is a tax dodge.

Even so, the data should still only be used for the intention it was collected for. Otherwise you'd have every TD or councillor wanting the data for their own nasty little schemes.

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

Even so, the data should still only be used for the intention it was collected for. Otherwise you'd have every TD or councillor wanting the data for their own nasty little schemes.

You don't seem to understand: the sole purpose of the land registry is to show who owns what. I've already shown you this, but I'll post it again:

3. Certified Copy Folio/Title Map
The folios and title maps of the Register constitute a public record and any person may apply to inspect or obtain a copy folio/title plan, on payment of the appropriate fee.
If you know the relevant folio number you can apply for a copy by downloading and completing the Application Form for Copy Folio (fee €6) or Application Form for Copy Folio/Title Map (fee €25 or €60 for a map showing appurtenant rights of way and/or other “special features” relating to the lands) and sending the completed form together with a cheque/postal order for the appropriate fee to:
Customer Service Unit
Property Registration Authority
Chancery Street
Dublin 7
If you don’t know the relevant folio number you can apply for a mapping search or names index search to be carried out.

reprazant

Statistician wrote: »

People who refuse to pay unfair taxes and charges are not criminals or tax-dodgers in my opinion. In my opinion, 'unvouched expenses' is a tax dodge.

Its not for you to decide what is fair or unfair in the realms of tax.

That's like someone with high car insurance deciding that it is 'unfair' so he just won't have any.

Statistician

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You don't seem to understand: the sole purpose of the land registry is to show who owns what. I've already shown you this, but I'll post it again:

I have no problem with that. The government, or any one else can look up the database to see who owns what.

The problem is the next step in the process. Using the data to administer the household charge. The data is now being used for another purpose. It is also being processed in a different way than was originally intended.

I'm not just making this up. Here you go:
http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/responsibilities/3bii.htm&CatID=54&m=y

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

I have no problem with that. The government, or any one else can look up the database to see who owns what.

The problem is the next step in the process. Using the data to administer the household charge. The data is now being used for another purpose. It is also being processed in a different way than was originally intended.

I'm not just making this up. Here you go:
http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/responsibilities/3bii.htm&CatID=54&m=y

But what you are arguing is that the land registry data is just there as a curiosity. Everybody who pays good money to look at the data does so as a first step in a process - you don't just go and have a look at it for a laugh.

You seem to think that it is like a phone book that you can look at for fun but not dial any of the numbers?

(and aside from this, the government can amend the legislation anyway)

Statistician

reprazant wrote: »

Its not for you to decide what is fair or unfair in the realms of tax.

That's like someone with high car insurance deciding that it is 'unfair' so he just won't have any.

I'm free to decide it something is unfair or not.

I don't see the connection with car insurance. My car insurance is used for the purposes of insuring my car. The money is not all going to be handed over to unsecured debt holders.

Monty Burnz

Statistician wrote: »

I don't see the connection with car insurance. My car insurance is used for the purposes of insuring my car. The money is not all going to be handed over to unsecured debt holders.

How do you know where the money is going to go? More likely it is your income tax that will be paying off the ECB (the overwhelming majority of the bonds are repaid now).

Perhaps you should not pay your income tax and pay your household charge as that money will be directed towards local services for you and your community?