No myth without history and no history without myth

Grace O Malley would be a prime example of the blurring between myth and history. Irish folklore is rich with stories of the 'Pirate Queen of Connacht', tales of her defiance of English rule inspired Pearse to rewrite Óró, Sé do Bheatha 'Bhaile - for example he changed the original Jacobean version from

'Sé mo léan géar nach bhfeicim
Mur mbéinn beo 'na dhiaidh ach seachtain
Séarlas Óg is míle gaiscidheach
Ag fógairt fáin ar Ghallaibh'

(Alas that I do not see
If I were alive afterwards only for a week
Young Charles and one thousand warriors
Banishing all the foreigners)

to

'Tá Gráinne Mhaol ag teacht thar sáile,
Óglaigh armtha léi mar gharda,
Gaeil iad féin is ní Gaill ná Spáinnigh,
Is cuirfidh siad ruaig ar Ghallaibh.'

(Gráinne O'Malley is coming over the sea,
Armed warriors along with her as her guard,
They are Gaels, not French nor Spanish...
And they will rout the foreigners!).

Anne Chambers continued the mythology but with a feminist twist making 'Grace' an exceptional woman who pushed the boundaries and stood up to sexism.

Recent scholarly research has unearthed a very different picture of a living breathing woman named Gráinne Ní Mháille who was not a queen of any description but the daughter of one of the Uí Máille sept chieftains ( never the chieftain of all the Ui Máille as the myth states), who married firstly an Uí Flaithbhertaigh Tánaiste and after his death a high ranking member of the Búrcs of Burrishoole whom she helped become the Mac Uilliam Íochtar in 1580.

Yes - she commanded a fleet of ships. She appears to have inherited these from her father. She also had undoubted sea faring skills - no doubt taught to her by her father. She was groomed to be a sea trader and pirate - unlike her half-brother Domhnaill Na Piopa (Westport House was built on the ruins of his tower house) who was better know for his ability as a musician.

Yes - she led men in 'battle' (more skirmishes really as there were few actual 'battles' at the time) - but so did her contemporaries Fionnuala Inion Dubh Nic Dhomhnaill and Agnes Campbell. The former is recorded as having swum out to a crannoig to slit the throats of about 9 men who had 'insulted' her...the latter used her considerable personal army to prevent the Tudors - spearheaded by their poster boy Hugh O Neill - getting a foothold in Ulster in the 1580s.

Yes - Ní Mháille came into conflict with Tudor administrators when they tried to take what she felt was her's or threatened her large extended family -specifically Richard Bingham. But she also allied with Tudor administrators when those who were threatening her family were Gaelic Irish - she allowed Conyers Clifford use of her fleet against Áodh Ruadh Ua Domhnaill in the late 1590s (Red Hugh was trying to exert control over Mayo) and allied with Nicholas Malby in the early 1580s during a succession fight among the Búrcs - her side won).

So from 1584-1595 she was in direct conflict with Richard Bingham and his policies in Connacht but she was pardoned by both Lord Deputy John Perrott and Elizabeth I for her activities and pledged the use of her fleet to Elizabeth in 1593. Hardly Gráinne Mhaol coming over the sea with her Gaels to fight the foreigners of the myth.

As for pushing the boundaries of what her gender could do - that is to apply an Anglo concept of what was fitting for a woman to a Gaelic world in which women could and did enjoy independent wealth, were often the main advisers to chieftains, were frequently the main negotiators on behalf of the clan, held the clan pursestrings and had a veto over any of her husband's decisions which would negatively impact on the Clan.
Tudor commentators such as Edmund Spenser were horrified by the 'freedom' allowed to Gaelic women - who routinely interrupted the menfolk's important talk with not just personal opinion but advice and expected to be listened to. Spenser didn't know which was worse, that the women were 'allowed' to do this or that the men not only actually listened but often followed the advice given.

Ní Mháille did not push against the boundaries of what women could and could not do in Gaelic Ireland - she fulfilled exactly the role assigned to the wife of a Chieftain. But in her case she had a personal source of income (trading and piracy) which was difficult for any outsider (be they English or Irish) to interfere with so the influence she was able to wield was out of the ordinary.

The myth of Gráinne Mhaol/Grace O Malley kept this redoubtable woman's name alive, but at a huge cost. The reality of Gráinne Ní Mháille was lost in the legend- it is now being uncovered.

The historical evidence suggests such a disconnect between the myth and the reality that at this point it is easier (and more accurate) to consider them to be 2 different people - 'Grace' - a fictional character whose story is very loosely based on 'Gráinne' - a woman of her time.

TG4 did an excellent documentary on her a few years ago where serious historians did some excellent myth busting but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the doco - even though I was one of the talking heads (I was the very un-serious historian )

tac foley wrote: »

Very interesting stuff there, Sir.

And all so recent, historically speaking.

Now what about the age of heroes and our old pal Cúchulainn? Who might HE have been based on? and the Cattle raids of the Cooleys - did they actually happen at some time as a distinct event, or were the stories a conglomerate of older stories?

tac

According to Donnchadh Ó Corráin The Cycles of which the Cú Chulainn tale is part of the Ulster Cycle are Heroic Myths similar to those of the Greek and Norse tales about their Gods.
Meab etc being Gods of a Gaelic pantheon - Cú Chulainn being a 'Herculean' type figure.
The tales were originally part of the oral tradition but were transcribed by monks who on the whole sought to preserve these important parts of Gaelic culture but also wished to Christianise them so inserted comments on sexual morality (Bad Meab!!!) and tweaked them a bit - not least removing any reference to them being Gods.
A careful reading of the Tain , for example, demonstrates that many scribes were involved in compiling the tales - some were content to leave them alone while others were compelled to editorialise according to Christian doctrine.

slowburner wrote: »

. Yew is toxic to humans - animals might be capable of eating the berries (could be wrong on this, so don't feed Yew berries to your pet calf :eek:).

It IS very poisonous to animals - including cattle !

Bannasidhe wrote: »

According to Donnchadh Ó Corráin The Cycles of which the Cú Chulainn tale is part of the Ulster Cycle are Heroic Myths similar to those of the Greek and Norse tales about their Gods.
Meab etc being Gods of a Gaelic pantheon - Cú Chulainn being a 'Herculean' type figure.
The tales were originally part of the oral tradition but were transcribed by monks who on the whole sought to preserve these important parts of Gaelic culture but also wished to Christianise them so inserted comments on sexual morality (Bad Meab!!!) and tweaked them a bit - not least removing any reference to them being Gods.
A careful reading of the Tain , for example, demonstrates that many scribes were involved in compiling the tales - some were content to leave them alone while others were compelled to editorialise according to Christian doctrine.

Meḋḃ Lethderg (Meadhbh for those who can't do punc's) specifically was a sovereignty goddess with regards to Tara. Thence "Rath Maeve" which is bout 1km south of Tara.

Some have alluded that they represent a mytholgisation of a possible war between Ulster and the Connachta (specfically the ancestors of the Uí Néill). Given that Meḋḃ Lethderg is connected to Connachta kings there might be an allergorical usuage of the name in the Táin.

Emhain Mhaca was abandoned by the 1st century AD, the nearby site on Cathedral hill in Armagh had radiocarbon dating in it's ditch from the 2nd century AD. Of course they pseudo-history has it that the Ulaid were defeated by the three Colla's who are said to be ancestors of the Airghialla. These were given a false genealogy later connecting them with Connachta/Uí Néill by claiming they were descended from Cairbre Lifechair (son of Art Mac Cuinn -- grandson of Conn).

More then likely the nine hostages in Niall's title were from each of the nine tuatha of the Airghialla. Who more then likely were subject/military vassals who switch allegience from the Ulaid to the rising Uí Néill power in the 5th century.

slowburner wrote: »

I wonder if genetic research has indicated anything, one way or the other, about the first Irish settlers originating in Phoenicia.

Irish interaction with Carthage and the rest of Phoenician society is still debated. They certainly traded up around this end of the world, so the people present in Ireland at the time certainly traded with them. There is some theories about their influence on the Irish language, but most likely this amounted to a few borrowings and nothing else.

I think the professor quoted in the OP might have been talking more about the way a particular interest group, be it a country, an ethnic group, a section of society or any other group of "like minded people" interprets events from history in a way that suits their point of view, rather than any apocryphal story that attains legendary status.

Considering World War One, for example, was he talking about the "Angel of Mons" legend, or the superstition that the war would not end until a damaged statue (in Ypres I think) finally toppled, which it did in 1918?

Or was he talking about the way the history of it has become mythologised so that it was "the war to end wars" or "to make the world safe for democracry" or that its purpose was to "come to the aid of small nations".

All of these build on selective facts about the time but are manipulated and edited to support a particular outlook.

Other myths might be the way the Australians and New Zealanders view the history of Gallipoli. Only a couple of weeks ago, in Dublin, the Australian ambassador talked about the importance of Gallipoli in the development of New Zealand national consciousness. It was, he said “now viewed as a defining moment in the development of nationhood in Australia and New Zealand”.

A more caustic reading of the record might conclude that the ANZACs originally volunteered for service precisely because they were British as opposed to being representatives of their "own" countries. The subsequent interpretation of that campaign as a great national awakening is a product of the imagination as much as an inference from the facts.

It differs greatly from the Irish consensus view of Gallipoli. It's just another event in our subservient past for us. Even though there were almost certainly more Irishmen killed at Gallipoli than New Zealanders.

Some nowadays level the accusation that subsequent generations of Irish people have "written these men out of history" but that's simply not true.

We just haven't written them INTO a national myth.

And that's not the same thing at all.

slowburner wrote: »

Isn't there a common theme about tasting the flesh of a particular animal, and being transformed as a consequence?
For Cúchulainn it was the breadán feasa and for the Vikings, it was (I think) the salmon eating otter.

I would assume you mean Fionn mac Cumhaill with regards to the Bradán.

Though in the case of Cú Chulainn there is an important plot device in his death tale regarding food. Specifically he had a geis that banned him from eating dog meat. However he also had another geis that bound him to always accept food from a woman. So when the old hag offers him dog-meath he is the position where he is "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't". This sets a train of motion that results in his death.

slowburner wrote: »

That's the lad.
I hope those from the Royal county haven't been offended by his dietary requirements

Of course the ironic thing about the Province of Meath is that the actual sub-component where the name comes from (Midhe -- Mí = modern irish) basically maps onto modern Westmeath. The modern county of Meath in comparison maps to the sub-kingdom of Brega (Bregha -- the heights). Of course when the two counties were created they were originally called: Westmeath and Eastmeath

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry not meaning to change topic but just clocked your signature, did you get your dna mapped?

I've done testing yes, specifically on my Y Chromosome. I also got a million SNP's mapped on my wider genome. However it's too expensive as of let to do a full genome. The price if falling rapidly though. At the moment I believe it's on order of 5-7 grand. Couple more years it be down to €500 (by 2020 anyways)

I remember seeing a documentary some years ago where there was a search for the real Robin Hood. If my memory serves me correctly they found three Robert Hoods, all of whom lived during the right time period but they settled on one who was described somewhere as an outlaw. Think they were pretty sure he didn't hide out in Sherwood Forest though!