A surprise loser in the wind farms game - bats.

Comparing the avian mortality per GW/hr for differing generators is fair enough in itself except that it has to be remembered that wind generators are not a substitute for fossil fuel or nuclear generators so by installing wind turbines we are still increasing avian mortalities.

This thread was about bats though.

Re the idea that correctly located wind turbines don't kill bats; the other side to the story is that where bats are found near wind turbines proposals, the wind developers simply apply for a licence that allows them to kill bats.

So building wind turbines increases avian and bat mortality.

(The Bat Conservation Trust might not be calling for an end to the development of wind energy but there's a great big "BUT" in their statement regarding wind turbine installations.)

Gurgle wrote: »

surely that's exactly what they are?

Sadly not. Even the hardiest supporters of wind turbines will tell you that wind turbines are additional to our other generators. I won't go into depth here because this thread is about bats and there are plenty of other threads on this board about this matter. Suffice to say that if we had 20% of our generating capacity supplied soley by wind and the wind isn't blowing or isn't blowing enough or is blowing too much (i.e. turbines shut down for safety reasons), we could find ourselves unable to meet demand.

Gurgle wrote: »

I've never heard of a bat killing license, and I believe that all types are protected here. Are you sure such a license is available?
Do you have any link to back this up?

Yes certainly, a quick google search has thrown up these:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/protecting-wildlife/legislation-licenses-protect-wildlife/ Scroll down on this page
Also:
http://www.bats.org.uk/pages/threats_to_bats.html
http://www.bats.org.uk/pages/threats_to_bats.html
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/species/epslicensing.aspx
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/default.aspx

Gurgle wrote: »

That's spin and nonsense, but as you said this is a bat thread.

How do you think demand can be met if the wind isn't turning the turbines? Can you provide evidence to support your statement above because unfortunately wind turbines are additional to a grid as explained by EON UK here http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/195/8061708.htm and they're being optimistic; generally the capacity credit of wind turbines is treated as zero in order to ensure a supply to meet demand. This thread is about bats but I respond to this point so that we are not left in a situation whereby we can say that wind turbines are a better option when they are not a substiute to other generators but additional to them and this means a net result of increased bat mortality.
Back to bats:

Gurgle wrote: »

The UK have always put development and industry over agriculture
and environment, have you any information that relates to Ireland?

www.dublincity.ie/.../Pages/BatMitigationGuidelinesforIreland.aspx
"2.2.1 When is a licence required?
The National Parks and Wildlife Service is frequently asked by consultants whether a derogation licence is required for a particular activity. Ultimately, however, this is a decision to be made by the consultant or client. A licence simply permits an action that is otherwise unlawful. To ensure that no illegal activities are undertaken, it is recommended that a licence is applied for if, on the basis of survey information and specialist knowledge, it appears that:
• the site in question is a breeding site or resting place for bats
• the proposed activity could result in an offence"
www.npws.ie/publications/IWM25.pdf

Gurgle wrote: »

I don't know what you think I'm claiming, and I'm not getting into it here.

That 'wind generators are a substitute for fossil fuel or nuclear generators' which they are not. Back to the bats themselves:

Gurgle wrote: »

You made this claim:
I've yet to see anything to back it up.
All the licensing info relates to disturbing bats and their habitats for study or development or any other reason. In all cases, any harm or damage must be mitigated by providing suitable alternative habitats.
There is no suggestion anywhere that bats are fair game if you have a license.

The document I linked to isn't very clear but their statement "• the proposed activity could result in an offence"" is not exclusive to roosts, it is illeagle to kill a bat deliberately or accidently and they do refer to wind turbines briefly, saying they pose a collision risk, mention of barotrauma is ommitted. In their mitigation section, they also mention habitats beyond the roost sites.

Here's a reference to needing a bat licence even when not touching the roost itself:
www.ceramicxwindfarmsucks.com/ Ceramicx%20Wind%20Turbine%20Bat%20Assessment%20Report.doc
"A development such as that planned, sited so close to a bat roost, with high potential to pose a risk to the bat colony, requires a derogation licence application under Regulation 23 of the EU Habitats Regulations 1997 to be submitted to the local authority as part of the planning application as described in the National Parks and Wildlife Service Circular Letter NPWS 2/07 reproduced in Appendix 4."

The problem is that wts (wind turbines) are proposed - surveys are done - bats are detected - mitigation is proposed - a licence is sought (so as not to be breaking the law if bats are killed by the wts) - wts are put up - post development survey done to see if bats killed / if mitigation works / if bat population suffers...
But what if the bat population has suffered - it's too late by then!

This is why the Bat Conservation Trust have a big "BUT" (see earlier link in thread) and the same concern is expressed here and is well worth a read:
http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Wind_Energy/Wind_Energy_2011_Conference/Bats_and_Wind_Farms,_State_of_the_Art_and_Best_Practice_Guide.pdf

"How are bats affected
1. Collision & barotrauma;
2. Changes to landscape including feeding habitat loss and loss of connectivity;
3. Loss of roosts."

"What we don’t know
– Mortality rates in Ireland;
– Whether mortality rates affect population viability;
– The extent to which bats migrate in Ireland;
– The potential risk posed to different species;
– How different bats react to change;
– How turbines interact with landscape;
– The potential effectiveness of mitigation measures."
etc

"What should we be doing NOW?
• Local authorities/An Bord Pleanala: Ensure that potential impacts on bats are fully and appropriately addressed in EIA studies – seek advice from NGOs or NPWS if not sure.
• Wind Energy Sector: Help to determine the extent of the impact in Ireland so that survey effort can be better focussed (CIBR Research)."

Macha wrote: »

It amazes me that people so dedicated to the protection of bats that they set up NGOs and trusts to promote awareness and policy change don't use bats as a scape goat to halt the development of wind turbines.

But they do halt the development of some wind turbine sites and they may or not come out more forecefully when the effects of wts on bats is better understood.
I'm sure the remainder of your comment was not intended as a snipe in my direction, but just in case it was, I would like to point out that I may be dedicated to protecting bats and have simply jumped on all the reasons that people are not in favour of wind turbines to reach my end goal of protecting bats.
Anyway, back to the topic of bats - do you have a point re bats and wind turbines other than the fact that some quite big organisations don't outright oppose wind turbines (yet).

Chloe Pink wrote: »

Do you have some examples of where developers sought to put wind turbine developments in Natura 2000 sites please and if so, were they successful in doing so?

Are you serious? LOL Part of the reason wind development has been slowed down, and rightly so, was the proliferation of applications and grants for wind farms in many of our SPA's around the country. I suggest you take a look at Stack's to Mullaghareirk Mountains, West Limerick Hills and Mount Eagle SPA 004161 for a start and I can tell you this from firsthand experience of working on a number of wind farm developments in this area.

Furthermore I can also tell you that bats form a large part of EIS work for most wind farms since at least 2009 and that in Ireland many of the wind farms are sited in upland sites which offer little or no suitable roosting and foraging habitats. Bats are also less of an issue in Ireland as we have less species than the rest of Europe and we do not host species which are known to migrate. The jury is still out on migration of Irish species but as it stands this is the consensus with the proviso that further studies are needed to learn more about Irish bats and their movements. The impact of a wind farm on the bats is also assessed in relation to distance from the site to the nearest known roost site, suitability of the site for foraging and roosting, the species likely to be found in the habitats present and the sensitivity of species to collision or barotrauma. In Ireland Leislers bats tend to be the species of greatest concern due to the distances they fly and how they utilise the landscape.

Obviously in the situation with the roost 160m from a turbine it is a given that there is a significant risk which is evidenced by the report from the excellent Conor Kelleher. However, 160m is an unlikely scenario in relation to wind farms as turbines must be situated at least 500m from the nearest house. In the case of wind farms should a roost or flight path be found close to a turbine then the developer can adjust the turbine position to avoid the impact on bats. The BCT guidelines on best practice have recently (Feb 2012) been revised to include a chapter on wind farms and bats Bat Surveys: Good Practice Guidelines, 2nd edition. This is a really useful document and bases its approach on a risk assessment.

joela wrote: »

Furthermore I can also tell you that bats form a large part of EIS work for most wind farms since at least 2009 and that in Ireland many of the wind farms are sited in upland sites which offer little or no suitable roosting and foraging habitats. Bats are also less of an issue in Ireland as we have less species than the rest of Europe and we do not host species which are known to migrate. The jury is still out on migration of Irish species but as it stands this is the consensus with the proviso that further studies are needed to learn more about Irish bats and their movements. The impact of a wind farm on the bats is also assessed in relation to distance from the site to the nearest known roost site, suitability of the site for foraging and roosting, the species likely to be found in the habitats present and the sensitivity of species to collision or barotrauma. In Ireland Leislers bats tend to be the species of greatest concern due to the distances they fly and how they utilise the landscape.

Obviously in the situation with the roost 160m from a turbine it is a given that there is a significant risk which is evidenced by the report from the excellent Conor Kelleher. However, 160m is an unlikely scenario in relation to wind farms as turbines must be situated at least 500m from the nearest house. In the case of wind farms should a roost or flight path be found close to a turbine then the developer can adjust the turbine position to avoid the impact on bats. The BCT guidelines on best practice [/SIZE]have recently (Feb 2012) been revised to include a chapter on wind farms and bats Bat Surveys: Good Practice Guidelines, 2nd edition. This is a really useful document and bases its approach on a risk assessment.

I know bats form a large part of EIS work - they have to - if the EIS is not thorough enough, that in itself can be reason to turn down the planning application.
You say "Bats are also less of an issue in Ireland as we have less species than the rest of Europe" - having less species doesn't make bats less of an issue, you may currently have a haven for a large percentage of the world population of a particular bat.
You then say categorically "we do not host species which are known to migrate" and then admit that the "jury is still out on migration of Irish species"
You say "However, 160m is an unlikely scenario in relation to wind farms" - well the link I provided was for a wind turbine so while it may be unlikely, it has been proposed.
The 500m separation distance is only a guideline; it can be less.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0413/1224314683057.html
Furthermore bats will forage further than 500m from their roosts and they roost in caves and trees and underground not just in buildings.
As you say "further studies are needed to learn more about Irish bats and their movements." which is exactly what I pointed out in my post at 18.10 on 02/05 - meanwhile derogation licences are sought to allow activities that would otherwise be illegal.

joela wrote: »

We don't host species KNOWN to migrate although there are some who feel that further research is required to identify exactly how bats move in Ireland but they are not migratory species as those studied in Europe and the US.

Thank you for clarfying

joela wrote: »

Never said bats didn't forage further than 500m from roost but foraging and roosting are two completely different things when it comes to impacts and mitigation.

So, to be clear, siting wind turbines 500m from houses doesn't necessarily help bats as they may travel beyond 500m of peoples houses and it doesn't necessarily help bats as some may be roosting in places other than houses e.g. outbuildings, barns, caves, trees, underground

joela wrote: »

Derogation licenses are sought not to allow bats to be killed but to allow appropriate steps to be taken to mitigate for any proposed development..

But is mitigation working?
http://www.wildlifesurveys.net/
Wind farms have formed a major aspect of the survey work in recent years. Detector surveys of proposed wind farms can be undertaken as can bat corpse searches using a sniffer dog.

And are environmental assessments protecting wildlife?
http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/2012/01/17/spanish-wind-farms-kill-6-to-18-million-birds-bats-a-year/

joela wrote: »

The links posted by Chloe are not credible, the raptor politics site in particular is run by a person who has his own anti-wind agenda.

Your view is that the raptor politics site isn't credible - which of the other links that I have given do you find not credible, I notice you used links (plural) not link?

joela wrote: »

The second link is for a survey provider in Ireland and the corpse searches mentioned form part of monitoring requirement for planning compliance at many wind farm sites. The corpse searches are a means of monitoring the wind farm and gathering data to inform future studies and increase scientific knowledge.

Thanks for confirming

joela wrote: »

These searches as a good thing because the monitoring provides information on interactions between wind farms and birds/bats.

Depends where you're coming from; the dead bats and birds might have preferred that the turbines weren't there.

joela wrote: »

... for some reason you have decided potential impacts on bats is somehow a supporting argument against wind turbines.

Maybe I'm a bat

Besides, its certainly not a supporting argument for wind farms is it

Joela, do you or do you not agree with the below?

Bats are affected by wind turbines through
1. Collision & barotrauma;
2. Changes to landscape including feeding habitat loss and loss of connectivity;
3. Loss of roosts.

We don’t know
– Mortality rates in Ireland;
– Whether mortality rates affect population viability;
– The extent to which bats migrate in Ireland;
– The potential risk posed to different species;
– How different bats react to change;
– How turbines interact with landscape;
– The potential effectiveness of mitigation measures."
etc

What should be happening:
• Local authorities/An Bord Pleanala: Ensure that potential impacts on bats are fully and appropriately addressed in EIA studies – seek advice from NGOs or NPWS if not sure.
• Wind Energy Sector: Help to determine the extent of the impact in Ireland so that survey effort can be better focussed (CIBR Research)."

HI Folks

Interesting discussion.
There was a plan to site a wind-turbine at a local factory just 160m from the nearest house in my rural neighbourhood.

We were greatly relieved to hear, just this week, than An Bord Pleanala have overturned the local Planning Authority's decision to grant approval, because the original applicant 'refused' to undertake a bat survey.

The house mentioned above has breeding colonies of Brown Long-Eared bats and Pippistrels (spelling?) - but the local planners had concluded that the erection of this 42m-tall turbine wouldn't have any effect on the local ecology. (!!)

Full story here - www.ceramicxwindfarmsucks.com

Apparently this is the first time in Ireland that a turbine application has been refused on the basis of bats...

Adrian

djpbarry wrote: »

There's no mention of bats anywhere on that page?

My apologies - it's on the News page....

The Home page pre-dated the bats' involvement...

Links from the News page ...

http://www.ceramicxwindfarmsucks.com/news.htmlhttp://www.ceramicxwindfarmsucks.com/news.html

... take you to the various documents submitted - including Conor's excellent survey.

Adrian

The biggest difference between here and mainland Europe and US is that they have a much greater number of species and some of these species have known migratory routes. The US & some of mainland Europe have large migrations of huge numbers of bats during spring and autumn and this is when the risk of mortality is greatest.

The situation regarding the single turbine mentioned in a previous post relates to a known roost of Brown Long-eared bat situated in close proximity to an 80m turbine. The developer was advised to carry out extensive tracking surveys to determine flight paths and chose not to which is why he didn't get planning. However, most wind farms are located in upland regions and not in close proximity to bat roosts. If a bat roost is discovered during surveys for the wind farm then appropriate mitigation, as per Natural England etc.,is put in place. The first approach would be to move the turbine away completely, all turbines will be sited at recommended distances from any commuting or foraging routes.

Most Irish bats are generally found along woodland edges, along hedgerows, along rivers or lakes. However Leisler bats are known to fly significant distances over open ground and are therefore considered to be the species most at risk from turbines in Ireland. Again these bats, while found in open spaces, will still require suitable habitat in the surrounding area for foraging and roosting. Irish bats do not have similar large scale migrations during the year but they do migrate within the country just not the same distances or scale as those on mainland Europe & US.

Many proposed wind farms in Ireland are exceptionally uninteresting in terms of bat activity and are not very exciting to survey. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule but in general upland blanket bog, conifer plantations and the lack of field boundaries make for a paucity of bat life, thankfully!

Wind farm developers do not undertake the EIA, the competent authority e.g. LA or ABP, undertakes the EIA based on the EIS which is provided by the developer. The developer commissions the surveys to inform the EIS. In this situation it was a single turbine and did not require an EIS which is largely part of the problem as at the very least a single 80m turbine in such an area should automatically trigger an EcIA. If the proponent of the project/plan doesn't commission them then who does and who pays for them?

The existence bat roost may have been known but there are bat roosts in lots of places and no one raises an eyebrow when something happens to it or is developed beside it. Then you get a situation like this and suddenly everyone cares about the bats :rolleyes: It wasn't a wind farm developer either in this situation but a business looking to install a single, ridiculously large, turbine. He actually commissioned an excellent company from NI to review the bat work done by Conor Kelleher but when they highlighted surveys required he refused to do them. So hardly able to commission a report to say what he wants now eh?

Finally I take great offence on my behalf and on behalf of my professional colleagues who work very hard adhering to professional codes of practice, following best practice, ensuring we are up to date on literature and research. There are always bad eggs in every profession but they are the exception rather than the norm. There are also situations where people do the work but don't do it very well, again exception rather than rule I feel. Do you have the professional expertise to assess the reports you refer to?

Furthermore the poorly sited housing developments etc. were often sub-threshold not requiring an EIA, developers were pretty cute at building in phases thereby keeping developments under the threshold. It has little to do with the ecological reports etc. commissioned and more to do with the faulty legislation and lack of enforcement. You may have a problem with wind farms but be honest about it and don't blame it on those carrying out survey work.

Chloe, please see quote from a previous post of mine

Most Irish bats are generally found along woodland edges, along hedgerows, along rivers or lakes. However Leisler bats are known to fly significant distances over open ground and are therefore considered to be the species most at risk from turbines in Ireland. Again these bats, while found in open spaces, will still require suitable habitat in the surrounding area for foraging and roosting. Irish bats do not have similar large scale migrations during the year but they do migrate within the country just not the same distances or scale as those on mainland Europe & US.

Leisler's bats will sometimes migrate up to 50 kilometres to their hibernation roosts. Early in the evening, Leisler's bats leave their roosts. They often travel over 10 kilometres to hunt along water courses and open fields.

http://mammals.biodiversityireland.ie/speciesinfo.php?TaxonId=119464&PHPSESSID=a8706f3e6618ffc1627cd202ce4d8861

Migration Leisler’s bat is considered a long distant migrant in continental Europe (Strelkov 1997) with movements up to 1567km being
recorded (Ohlendorf et al. 2000). There is some evidence to
indicate that Leisler’s bats may, to some extent, migrate over
www.ni-environment.gov.uk/nh-research.htm Review of ASSI designation for bats 16 small distances within Ireland (Shiel & Fairley 1998; Hopkirk &
Russ 2004) but none to show that they leave the island.

http://www.doeni.gov.uk/niea/review_of_assi_designation_for_bats_amended.pdf

I could go on but I think you may now understand the difference between the IRISH situation and that of mainland Europe/US. Therefore the potential impacts of wind turbines on bats is different in here not only due to bat ecology but also to do with the bat species and the types of habitats present in upland areas where wind farms are primarily located in Ireland.

Please don't come back and misquote and misuse information, if you had carried out any bat surveys or even read any reports then you wouldn't make the claims you have. Turbines & their interactions with bats are of course of potential concern, I most certainly don't want to see vast numbers of bat deaths as a result of inappropriate wind farm siting. There is a PhD currently underway to study same on Irish wimd farms and I hope it brings lots of new information to help ensure appropriate surveys and mitigation are being undertaken for every wind farm.