Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

Feeona · 01-05-2012 08:30PM

PennyWise11 wrote: »

Having " principals/other teachers observing random classes and giving evaluation reports" as you suggest would absolutely DECIMATE staff relations in any school, in my opinion.

I agree with this, especially about having other teachers observe my work in order to review my perfomance. When I worked in an office, my team leader reviewed my work, the colleagues on my team didn't review my work. I wouldn't have accepted somebody at the same level as myself 'reviewing' my performance.

SerialComplaint · 01-05-2012 08:30PM

looksee wrote: »

I think teacher assessment is a good idea but I think involving the students in assessing teachers would be very bad for discipline in the long run. I can just imagine lippy louise trying to use 'I'll give you a bad report!' as a smart remark in class. It does not matter that she has been weighted out of the equation, just giving her the ammunition is a bad idea.

If you look on ratemyteacher.ie, where there is no accountability or tracking or control, you'll find that by and large, the vast majority of ratings and comments are sensible and measured. There are of course a few who don't have the maturity to give a sensible answer, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Funnily enough, before the ratemysolicitor.ie website got pulled down, the comments on it from the adult audience showed far less maturity than the comments on teachers from teenagers.

Feedback from students should be an important part of measuring teacher results, though the OPs original proposal is badly flawed.

ntlbell · 01-05-2012 08:34PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

DES inspectors have the power to remove a teacher.

Based on what critera?

how do they judge underperforming?

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 08:36PM

SerialComplaint wrote: »

If you look on ratemyteacher.ie, where there is no accountability or tracking or control, you'll find that by and large, the vast majority of ratings and comments are sensible and measured. There are of course a few who don't have the maturity to give a sensible answer, but they are the exception, not the rule.

.

Mainly because any teacher who took it seriously and took any notice of the silly site probably rated themselves!! I know one teacher in a grind school who boosted their ratings this way.How sad is that??Many responses were also removed from it. An anonymous internet site is not exactly a professional measure,now is it?

Feeona · 01-05-2012 08:40PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Fine then. No reports whatsoever. Just make it a practical exam where the inspectors mark the teacher out of 100 on their performance and adds a few suggestions at the bottom of the page outlining where improvements need to be made if the teacher fails.

Don't tell me there's something wrong with that too?

I work as a teacher. I'm giving you my opinion based on my experience, so I would greatly appreciate it if you saw my posts as such.

RE your suggestion, I'm reading your posts with interest because it's always good to have a fresh eye with regard to teacher performance and you don't seem the axe grinder type! However, if you mark a teacher on performance, then we're back to the problem of teacher with not so excellent class B against teacher with excellent class A

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 08:46PM

ntlbell wrote: »

Based on what critera?

how do they judge underperforming?

In the same way as they judge teachers during the dip year or at incidental visits, I'd imagine.

ntlbell · 01-05-2012 08:48PM

Feeona wrote: »

I work as a teacher. I'm giving you my opinion based on my experience, so I would greatly appreciate it if you saw my posts as such.

RE your suggestion, I'm reading your posts with interest because it's always good to have a fresh eye with regard to teacher performance and you don't seem the axe grinder type! However, if you mark a teacher on performance, then we're back to the problem of teacher with not so excellent class B against teacher with excellent class A

why is it we can judge performance on just about every single profesion imaginable bar teaching?

Why can't it be average?

If there's 3 6th class primary teachers in a school in tallaght with 90 students avergaing 30 students per class.

just base the performance on the average?

it's unlikley one teacher gets 30 rotten apples and one gets 30 brain surgeons.

come on this is not rocket science teachers teach people all day long to find soloutions yet can't find one for their own problem???

this is just crazy.

ntlbell · 01-05-2012 08:49PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

In the same way as they judge teachers during the dip year or at incidental visits, I'd imagine.

you said there's no way for you to be judged on performance.

then you say the DES can get rid of a teacher on the same.

yet no way to judge it.?

where does it end.

SerialComplaint · 01-05-2012 09:10PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Mainly because any teacher who took it seriously and took any notice of the silly site probably rated themselves!! I know one teacher in a grind school who boosted their ratings this way.How sad is that??Many responses were also removed from it. An anonymous internet site is not exactly a professional measure,now is it?

No indeed, it's not exactly a professional measure. I wasn't suggesting that an anonymous internet site would be the appropriate feedback mechanism. I was simply pointing out that most students give sensible feedback most of the time. With an in-school system, the feedback would be reasonably reliable.

Who knows the teachers better than the students?

gaeilgebeo · 01-05-2012 09:14PM

ntlbell wrote: »

you said there's no way for you to be judged on performance.

then you say the DES can get rid of a teacher on the same.

yet no way to judge it.?

where does it end.

Rather than trolling the thread, why not offer a suggestion as to how teachers performance can be measured? Do you have any feasible suggestions?

Powerhouse · 01-05-2012 09:15PM

ntlbell wrote: »

why is it we can judge performance on just about every single profesion imaginable bar teaching?

Because you probably don't have the same variables in any other job. I know a teacher at the moment who is trying to get a 'self-harming' student to show up for school and another who is fearful in case one student might get less than an A1 in honours Irish in the Leaving Cert. People outside teaching hate to hear that as they are tbound up in the whole I'll-appraise-your-performance-and-we'll-deal-with-the-sackings-later mentality. But that's the reality. You get huge variations in one class never mind across schools.

(Incidentally, as someone who worked outside of teaching for some time I know that it is a fallacy that all jobs/professions are subjected to really critical reviews of performance. Many in my experience were pointless exercises just going through the motions - others where it didn't happen at all; there either was enough business to keep you going or there wasn't.)

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 09:16PM

ntlbell wrote: »

you said there's no way for you to be judged on performance.

then you say the DES can get rid of a teacher on the same.

yet no way to judge it.?

where does it end.

I said that linking pay to pupil performance in state exams/standarised tests was not possible, as there are too many variables.

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 09:18PM

SerialComplaint wrote: »

No indeed, it's not exactly a professional measure. I wasn't suggesting that an anonymous internet site would be the appropriate feedback mechanism. I was simply pointing out that most students give sensible feedback most of the time. With an in-school system, the feedback would be reasonably reliable.

Who knows the teachers better than the students?

From what age?Junior infants?How do you arrive at the idea that most students would be reasonable in giving feedback?

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 09:27PM

Feeona wrote: »

I work as a teacher. I'm giving you my opinion based on my experience, so I would greatly appreciate it if you saw my posts as such.

I do. But you're focusing too much on minor issues like how reports might be perceived instead of the major picture which is the need for self-regulation.

RE your suggestion, I'm reading your posts with interest because it's always good to have a fresh eye with regard to teacher performance and you don't seem the axe grinder type! However, if you mark a teacher on performance, then we're back to the problem of teacher with not so excellent class B against teacher with excellent class A

Well no, not really. If Class A are all A1 students and think their teacher is great, all well and good. If Class B are struggling and think their teacher is great, again all well and good.

If Class C are struggling and don't think their teacher is doing a particularly good job, this can be communicated to the the Department of Education via a student review. They'll flag the teacher for a series of three inspections over the following term and see for themselves how the teacher is performing. The student's opinions will have absolutely no bearing on how the teacher's performance is assessed by the inspector.

The elegance of the system I suggest lies in the fact that it doesn't put teachers at the mercy of their student's opinions. It's the inspector (Who will be another teacher) who ultimately decides whether or not a teacher is fit to teach or not.

It's not that different to any other profession really. If a Dentist's patients think they're terrible at their job they'll inform the dental council. The dental council goes in to see for themselves and they take appropriate action to protect the name and image of dentists in Ireland.

If anything, a system of self-regulation like the one i'm suggesting would greatly improve the public's perception of teachers.

Toto Wolfcastle · 01-05-2012 09:29PM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

ntlbell wrote: »

you said there's no way for you to be judged on performance.

then you say the DES can get rid of a teacher on the same.

yet no way to judge it.?

where does it end.

Rather than trolling the thread, why not offer a suggestion as to how teachers performance can be measured? Do you have any feasible suggestions?

If you have a problem with a post please report it rather than calling someone a troll on thread.

ntlbell please stop badgering people for answers if you are not willing to provide any of your own. It's disrupting the thread.

As usual please do not reply to this warning on thread. PM me if you need to clarify anything.

E.T. · 01-05-2012 09:29PM

What about if Class D are struggling, don't want to be in school, have parents who tell the teachers that they "don't give a f*ck" about school, and have a teacher who's working to the bone to get them to pass exams? And decide that it would be good craic to give the teacher poor reports and get them in trouble, cos sure it's not like teachers do any work anyway!

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 09:33PM

E.T. wrote: »

What about if Class D are struggling, don't want to be in school, have parents who tell the teachers that they "don't give a f*ck" about school, and have a teacher who's working to the bone to get them to pass exams? And decide that it would be good craic to give the teacher poor reports and get them in trouble, cos sure it's not like teachers do any work anyway!

Class C = Class D

Read my post again. The student's opinions are not taken in to account when deciding whether or not to pursue the 5-15-25-Termination/Resit route.

Other teachers (Inspectors) know exactly how teaching works and they're well able to tell a good teacher doing the best job possible with an incredibly challenging class and a bad teacher completely out of their depth and exacerbating a problem.

E.T. · 01-05-2012 09:38PM

If Class C are struggling and don't think their teacher is doing a particularly good job

What I posted in my example of the fictional (but sadly very factual) Class D is that they "decide that it would be good craic to give the teacher poor reports and get them in trouble". Not the same thing at all.

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 09:46PM

You cannot say class A are better than class b or vice-versa. There is a classroom dynamic, one child may set off a few others in being giddy or disruptive, so the day that child is elsewhere, the class may present differently at primary level.One child may need a larger amount of one-to-one or a greater deal of scaffolding in some subject areas than others and so on.There is no such thing really, as a class,it is a group made up of 30 individuals which is why work must be differentiated and so on.

In secondary,the individual thing comes into play to a lesser extend in that children are following the same syllabus to a greater degree. Class A might do ok at, say, home ec. but might not be so hot in maths-even if you had all the same students.

seavill · 01-05-2012 10:11PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Class C = Class D

Read my post again. The student's opinions are not taken in to account when deciding whether or not to pursue the 5-15-25-Termination/Resit route.

Other teachers (Inspectors) know exactly how teaching works and they're well able to tell a good teacher doing the best job possible with an incredibly challenging class and a bad teacher completely out of their depth and exacerbating a problem.

I think you are missing a point there whether bad reports from students get the inspectors called in or get pay docked it still has the effect of labelling a teacher bad whether it true or not. The fact that the inspectors are called in on possibly a good teacher with a group of students with an axe to grind would have a bad effect on the morale of the teacher or indeed start rumours etc.

My opinion on this before I am seen as anti inspection from the above paragraph.

I agree with you in principle but do not think that student reports as the basis of bringing in inspectors is the way to go.
Someone mentioned ratemyteacher. They mentioned that most posts were balanced and generally good, however these good posts were generally from past students not current ones. Current ones can have an axe to grind. For example one week after I started in a school I got a comment on ratemyteacher that I was bossing everyone around the place etc. This was based on hall supervision 1 week after starting. Teenagers not always the most balanced, some are some are not.

From being a teacher I think the best way to go with all this is giving the principal the power. I do think that there should be random visits from management and this should be the basis of whether a teacher is up to the job or not. As someone said they know the staff, the kids, the problems etc. Ideal for the job.
I would have no problem with a teacher at the same level as myself reviewing my lessons but I do know that I would be in the minority on this. Irish teachers need to open up a bit and not be so closed in.
The only problem wiht using the principal I see is that any principal I know never has a minute during the day to even have a break sometimes, anytime they come into the staffroom they get jumped on by 10 teachers who have been waiting to see them, In the corridor every student wants to see them. The admin tasks of the principal would need to be looked at first for this to be a success.
Obviously the DP could also be used.

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 10:15PM

E.T. wrote: »

What I posted in my example of the fictional (but sadly very factual) Class D is that they "decide that it would be good craic to give the teacher poor reports and get them in trouble". Not the same thing at all.

Again, re-read my post. The student's opinions alone will not be able to "get teachers in trouble".

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You cannot say class A are better than class b or vice-versa. There is a classroom dynamic, one child may set off a few others in being giddy or disruptive, so the day that child is elsewhere, the class may present differently at primary level.One child may need a larger amount of one-to-one or a greater deal of scaffolding in some subject areas than others and so on.There is no such thing really, as a class,it is a group made up of 30 individuals which is why work must be differentiated and so on.

The system i'm suggesting isn't very workable at primary level. It's really only suitable at secondary level.

In secondary,the individual thing comes into play to a lesser extend in that children are following the same syllabus to a greater degree. Class A might do ok at, say, home ec. but might not be so hot in maths-even if you had all the same students.

That's not really a big deal as the subjects will be taught by different teachers. But again, I think you may be misunderstanding the system i'm proposing. Teacher's won't be assessed on their student's grades. Their teaching ability is assessed by another teacher (Inspector) upon being flagged by the student review system.

SerialComplaint · 01-05-2012 10:26PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

From what age?Junior infants?How do you arrive at the idea that most students would be reasonable in giving feedback?

Why not Junior Infants - via an age appropriate feedback method of course.

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 10:29PM

seavill wrote: »

I think you are missing a point there whether bad reports from students get the inspectors called in or get pay docked it still has the effect of labelling a teacher bad whether it true or not.

Students have an incentive not to exaggerate. If it's found that the students returned bogus reviews just to try and get the teacher flagged they'll either have their review rights revoked or their reviews down weighted to something insignificant. There's also the fact that the reviews will be on a term-by-term basis. A bad review at the end Christmas that leads to a teacher being flagged would probably lead to inspections around February/March. It's not the best way of "getting" at a teacher.

Also, to completely eliminate the possibility of students abusing the system if the inspector finds that the teacher is doing an exceptionally good job they can be given a 5% pay rise. Good teachers get pay rises and bad teachers face reduction in pay and eventual termination from their post if they don't improve.

As for teachers who get their pay docked there's no question of it being "true or not" as they will have been assessed by an external inspector.

The fact that the inspectors are called in on possibly a good teacher with a group of students with an axe to grind would have a bad effect on the morale of the teacher or indeed start rumours etc.

If there's the possibility of a pay rise arising from the inspection, students with an axe to grind will be hesitant to try and abuse the system.

From being a teacher I think the best way to go with all this is giving the principal the power. I do think that there should be random visits from management and this should be the basis of whether a teacher is up to the job or not. As someone said they know the staff, the kids, the problems etc. Ideal for the job.

They're ideal for the job but i'd imagine the atmosphere in the staff room would be terrible. Collective resentment of the DoE inspectors is fine but causing teachers to resent their colleagues isn't a good idea.

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 10:42PM

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Why not Junior Infants - via an age appropriate feedback method of course.

Because a junior infant's view changes depending on what has happened in the last half hour, they don't really get the overall picture when they are four years of age.Hence, the child who says x is her best friend may well have y as a best friend by next break.

seavill · 01-05-2012 10:57PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Students have an incentive not to exaggerate. If it's found that the students returned bogus reviews just to try and get the teacher flagged they'll either have their review rights revoked or their reviews down weighted to something insignificant. There's also the fact that the reviews will be on a term-by-term basis. A bad review at the end Christmas that leads to a teacher being flagged would probably lead to inspections around February/March. It's not the best way of "getting" at a teacher.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree in this one. I've seen you explain this a few different times but still don't think it makes sense ( in my head anyway )

Also, to completely eliminate the possibility of students abusing the system if the inspector finds that the teacher is doing an exceptionally good job they can be given a 5% pay rise. Good teachers get pay rises and bad teachers face reduction in pay and eventual termination from their post if they don't improve.

So am I right in saying that a teacher who gets consistently ok reports so does not flag any inspection does not get the chance if the pay rise. In general there is a difference between a teacher who can keep kids happy and a good teacher. We all know one of those teachers who tries to be one if the lads to get liked by the kids. Generally works for non exam classes. May get found out at and of 3rd and 6th year but for the other 5 years kids think he's a legend regardless of how good a teacher is. Don't tell me this doesn't happen.

I still think the principal is the only way. They are management. Resentment from some staff is part if the job. But in reality as I think you said good teachers have nothing to worry about

As for teachers who get their pay docked there's no question of it being "true or not" as they will have been assessed by an external inspector.

If there's the possibility of a pay rise arising from the inspection, students with an axe to grind will be hesitant to try and abuse the system.

They're ideal for the job but i'd imagine the atmosphere in the staff room would be terrible. Collective resentment of the DoE inspectors is fine but causing teachers to resent their colleagues isn't a good idea.

Principal is there to manage not be everyone's best pall just like with the kids. The good kids like the principal in general. The bold ones don't. Again good teachers nothing to worry about principal appraisal is normal in other countries and other jobs. b

jumpguy · 01-05-2012 11:18PM

looksee wrote: »

I think teacher assessment is a good idea but I think involving the students in assessing teachers would be very bad for discipline in the long run. I can just imagine lippy louise trying to use 'I'll give you a bad report!' as a smart remark in class. It does not matter that she has been weighted out of the equation, just giving her the ammunition is a bad idea.

A good teacher in that situation would tell Louise where to shove her bad feedback, dole out the discipline, shut her up and continue teaching the rest of the class. I'm sure the rest of the class will more than make up for the bad feedback if the teacher doesn't allow a few unruly students to take over a class.

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 11:33PM

seavill wrote: »

So am I right in saying that a teacher who gets consistently ok reports so does not flag any inspection does not get the chance if the pay rise. In general there is a difference between a teacher who can keep kids happy and a good teacher. We all know one of those teachers who tries to be one if the lads to get liked by the kids. Generally works for non exam classes. May get found out at and of 3rd and 6th year but for the other 5 years kids think he's a legend regardless of how good a teacher is. Don't tell me this doesn't happen.

In practice, this will never be a problem. Teachers teach a variety of classes. If they're useless at teaching but nice then they'll be reviewed accordingly by 3rd and 6th years and the inspector will see for themselves if they can teach or not.

As for pay rises, I see them as being a very rare occurrence used to mark out excellent teachers who are coping well with challenging students. Teachers teaching cooperative "non-problem" classes aren't doing anything out of the ordinary to a high standard aren't doing anything out of the ordinary.

I still think the principal is the only way. They are management. Resentment from some staff is part if the job. But in reality as I think you said good teachers have nothing to worry about

The principal is busy with other things. They can't spend their day supervising their teachers. Not only that but the whole idea behind my proposed system is that the inspectors are external so that the entire process is impartial.

ntlbell · 02-05-2012 08:07AM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Rather than trolling the thread, why not offer a suggestion as to how teachers performance can be measured? Do you have any feasible suggestions?

I all ready have. please read the thread.

thanks

seavill · 02-05-2012 08:09AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In practice, this will never be a problem. Teachers teach a variety of classes. If they're useless at teaching but nice then they'll be reviewed accordingly by 3rd and 6th years and the inspector will see for themselves if they can teach or not.

As for pay rises, I see them as being a very rare occurrence used to mark out excellent teachers who are coping well with challenging students. Teachers teaching cooperative "non-problem" classes aren't doing anything out of the ordinary to a high standard aren't doing anything out of the ordinary.

The principal is busy with other things. They can't spend their day supervising their teachers. Not only that but the whole idea behind my proposed system is that the inspectors are external so that the entire process is impartial.

Firstly I will say I am not against inspection by anyone in anyway but I do think your whole point is far too simplistic and not reality when it come to the day to day lives of teenagers.
Yes that may seem very logical to us adults but from dealing with kids day in day out this is not as simple as you are making it out.
Are you a teacher?

ntlbell · 02-05-2012 08:13AM

Powerhouse wrote: »

Because you probably don't have the same variables in any other job. I know a teacher at the moment who is trying to get a 'self-harming' student to show up for school and another who is fearful in case one student might get less than an A1 in honours Irish in the Leaving Cert. People outside teaching hate to hear that as they are tbound up in the whole I'll-appraise-your-performance-and-we'll-deal-with-the-sackings-later mentality. But that's the reality. You get huge variations in one class never mind across schools.

(Incidentally, as someone who worked outside of teaching for some time I know that it is a fallacy that all jobs/professions are subjected to really critical reviews of performance. Many in my experience were pointless exercises just going through the motions - others where it didn't happen at all; there either was enough business to keep you going or there wasn't.)

Just about every job has variations but we managge to deal with them]

I have all ready pointed out.

averages.

you don't have to base a pay increase on a single student.

peer review.

independant review.

a 360 approach with personal and perforamance related goals.

You take averages.

The teacher stays in the average of her peer group.

if it drops of it's investigated and if needs be monitored or put on "probation" then around we go again.

There is TONS of solutions. The issue I see is the teachers are not putting them forward as this would put the responsibility back on to them to perform.

Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

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