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Grace O' Malley

  • 23-06-2011 3:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,526 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me find pictures of the ships that the Irish pirate queen sailed. I've only ever managed to find pics of herself and of her castle. Even just the names of them would be great. Thanks in advance!


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me find pictures of the ships that the Irish pirate queen sailed. I've only ever managed to find pics of herself and of her castle. Even just the names of them would be great. Thanks in advance!
    I believe she had 8 ships at one point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,526 ✭✭✭✭Tauriel


    Thanks for the reply. Yeah I knew that she had quite a few but I'm having no luck finding their names or pics of them. Usually when I do a google search I only come across Blackbeards ship, the Black Pearl, etc. I'm just very interested in her story


  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭ShatterResistant


    My cousins are related to her! No word of a lie, I'll give them a shout and get back to you!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    There's a grace o'malley museum isnt there? In Mayo I think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,526 ✭✭✭✭Tauriel


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    There's a grace o'malley museum isnt there? In Mayo I think?

    Yeah I just googled it there. I must take a trip up there some day


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    I've wondered about it too. We tend to think of her in a Big Pirate ship like the black pearl, but in reality she was probably more likely to be in something like a galway bay hooker(yes, that the right name!).

    Its was probably more practical to have a few smaller faster boats than anything big and unwieldy.

    But she also carried on legitimate maritime business didnt she? So she may have had basic cargo ships as well.

    It would be interesting to ask this question in a boating forum perhaps?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,526 ✭✭✭✭Tauriel


    I know her first husbands family were in the maritime business and that is how she came to have a ship. I've looked up his family but couldn't really find anything on them


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,507 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭convert


    There's a book written by Anne Chambers about Grace O'Malley, entitled Granuaile: Ireland's Pirate Queen, c. 1530-1603. It contains quite a few illustrations, including a galley from 1590 and an impression of what Grace's galley would have looked like (c. p. 50, if you're using the 2003 edition).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭convert


    Oh, there's also a family tree on p. 179 of the same edition, and some information regarding her first husband's (O'Flaherty) family can be found in the 'Articles of Interrgatory' from p. 186.

    The book, which isn't too expensive (under €20 if I remember correctly), is easy to read and should give you more info. about both her ships and husband(s), as well as about Grace.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭voter1983


    I read another book called Grania a while back it's more of a novelised account of her life but very interesting none the less.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    TG4 did a documentary a while back on her exploring the myth vs the actual truth about her. It was really interesting but I don't remember them mentioning an actual names of ships.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    I believe she would have used boat similar to Galway Hooker - well ballasted to withstand Atlantic gales, gaff sail which could be quickly lowered when wind rose


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭franc 91


    As far as I know there aren't any contemporary portraits of her - I've found a pdf file for schools where this question is asked. The nearest thing they have is a picture of Maude Burke her great-great grandaughter. They have artist's impressions of her story.
    google docs - Corel Office Document - Should we call Grace O'Malley a pirate? (Ireland in Schools - English and Irish history for primary schools - Birmingham Pilot scheme 2008)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I did my PhD thesis on Gráinne and her extended family - the Ui Máille of Umhall, The Uí Flaithbhertaigh of Ballinahinch and the á Búrc of Burrishoole.

    What I discovered is that the story of 'Grace O Malley' is just that - a story. It may be based on an actual person - named Gráinne Ní Mhaille - but the Grace story is about as historically accurate as the film of Michael Collins.

    I certainly would not recommend Anne Chambers book but the TG4 docu mentioned is well worth watching.

    We have no idea what kind of ships Gráinne Ní Mháille (she was never referred to as 'Grace' during her lifetime) had as no records have survived which describe them in detail. Drawing from the time suggest galley type vessels based on Scandinavian longships - shallow bottomed, sail and oar driven. Fast and highly manoeuvrable.

    The Uí Maille's of Umhall had always been seafaring so she would have learned her skills at a young age from her father Eoghan Dubhdara Ua Máille . Although the Uí Flaithbhertaigh's were also seafaring, there is no evidence to suggest she acquired her ships from them. Indeed, in the 1580s/90s her son - Murrough na Moar Ua Flaithbhertaigh was a captain of one of his mother's ships - an Uí Máille vessel.

    There is no account which states exactly how many ships she had. We do know that in 1576 she was in Galway with 2 galleys and 300 fighting men under her personal command.

    For anyone who is interested in reading the facts rather then the myths I suggest having a read of Gráinne Mhaol, pirate queen of Connacht: behind the legend http://www.historyireland.com//volumes/volume13/issue2/features/?id=113811.

    It should be noted that the article incorrectly states she lived/was buried on Clare Island. This is not so as the Uí Máille of Clare were a different branch of the family - she was from Murrisk. She is either buried in Murrisk Abbey or Burrishoole Abbey - more likely the latter as her son Tibbóid na Long Búrc and his wife Meabh Ní Chonchobhair Sligigh continued to patronise the Abbey into the 17th century.

    As far the whole 'Bald Gráinne' thing - this seems to be a mistranslation of Gráinne of Umhaill - Gráinumhall. She was the second member of her family to have that name - she had a grand-aunt also named Gráinne of Umhall.

    Yes, she engaged in piracy - so did Drake, Raleigh etc, the only differenece being the last two had a licence from Elzabeth I to do so. Piracy was a feature of life at the time. However, it appears that her piracy mainly took place in Clew Bay - which the Uí Máille considered part of their territory so one could say that she was extracting tolls with menaces. Pay the toll or they take the whole cargo.

    The crap written about her drives me spare. :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Interesting. Has your thesis been published or is it in one of the University libraries?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Of course interesting thing about the ruling families of the Umhail is that they claimed to be part of wider Uí Briúin eg. that they make up the "Uí Briúin Umhail", however there is folklore that puts them as descended form "Orbsen". This been "Orbsiu Mac Alloid" another name/aspect for the god Manannán mac Lir.

    Given there connections to sea-faring this would be a fitting ancestry myth. :D

    Loch Corrib in Galway is actually a corruption of Loch nOrbsen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    nuac wrote: »
    Interesting. Has your thesis been published or is it in one of the University libraries?

    Working on a publishable version, working title MacUilliam Abú.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    OK good luck with it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    We have no idea what kind of ships Gráinne Ní Mháille (she was never referred to as 'Grace' during her lifetime) had as no records have survived which describe them in detail. Drawing from the time suggest galley type vessels based on Scandinavian longships - shallow bottomed, sail and oar driven. Fast and highly manoeuvrable...............

    I agree that her boats would have been galleys; sleek, manoeuvrable & fast, and manned by a large number of rowers; ideally used for ‘hit & run’ tactics. Similar boats were used by the Barbary States, Algerines and Sundra Straits pirates for hundreds of years. Galleys are nothing like Galway Bay hookers (per post by somebody above.) But it makes me wonder about claims/lore that she raided as far south as West Cork; a galley is not suitable for that distance, particularly in Irish weather conditions.

    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Yes, she engaged in piracy - so did Drake, Raleigh etc, the only differenece being the last two had a licence from Elzabeth I to do so. Piracy was a feature of life at the time. However, it appears that her piracy mainly took place in Clew Bay - which the Uí Máille considered part of their territory so one could say that she was extracting tolls with menaces. Pay the toll or they take the whole cargo.

    The crap written about her drives me spare. :mad:

    Grainne’s piracy is not as subtle as that. Drake and Raleigh were not pirates, they were ‘privateers’– they commanded private vessels operating under a ‘letter of marquee & reprisal’* i.e. a licence from the monarch to wage a private war against specific targets only. That licence (internationally recognized & legal) stipulated the nationalities of the vessels that could be attacked and often the area of operation. What they could do was clearly defined. Letters of Marque were commonly used by French, British and American governments during the Napoleonic Wars. What Grainne did was plain ‘opportunistic’ piracy and against the law. I agree in that era there was nothing particularly unusual or uncommon about that, apart from her sex.

    The ‘Irish Lights’ ship is called Granuaile; the current vessel replaced another of the same name and a condition of the sale was the retention of the name Granuaile for use on the new vessel.

    I know wiki is disliked as a source but their piece on letters of marque is quite good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

    Looking forward to the book, but you need a more international title;)

    *in French it is ‘Lettre de course’ hence corsair.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I agree that her boats would have been galleys; sleek, manoeuvrable & fast, and manned by a large number of rowers; ideally used for ‘hit & run’ tactics. Similar boats were used by the Barbary States, Algerines and Sundra Straits pirates for hundreds of years. Galleys are nothing like Galway Bay hookers (per post by somebody above.) But it makes me wonder about claims/lore that she raided as far south as West Cork; a galley is not suitable for that distance, particularly in Irish weather conditions.

    In early 1577 she was captured raiding the Earl of Desmond's lands- the records don't say exactly where, but it does put her on the South-West coast. Desmond handed her over to Lord Justice Drury as a demonstration of his loyalty.

    In 1578, a Captain Martin was dispatched from Galway to arrest her for attacks on Galway ships - but this could have referred her extracting tolls with menaces. Captain Martin attacked Carrigahowley and had his ass handed to him. He declared he was lucky to escape with his life. Mind, she had just been released having spent over a year in Dublin Castle so I'd say she wasn't in the best of moods at the time.

    In the 1590s, she herself admitted she was forced to spend 3 months re-fitting her fleet in Tyrconnell after a severe storm - so that puts her as far north as Donegal.

    She also sailed to London in 1593 and 1595.



    Grainne’s piracy is not as subtle as that. Drake and Raleigh were not pirates, they were ‘privateers’– they commanded private vessels operating under a ‘letter of marquee & reprisal’* i.e. a licence from the monarch to wage a private war against specific targets only. That licence (internationally recognized & legal) stipulated the nationalities of the vessels that could be attacked and often the area of operation. What they could do was clearly defined. Letters of Marque were commonly used by French, British and American governments during the Napoleonic Wars. What Grainne did was plain ‘opportunistic’ piracy and against the law. I agree in that era there was nothing particularly unusual or uncommon about that, apart from her sex.

    There is only one recorded instance of attempted 'piracy' by a vessel belonging to her. In 1601, a galley identified as hers but captained by her son halted an English galleon in Clew Bay and demanded a toll be paid or they would seize the ship.

    Given that Gaelic Ireland had no central authority there was no mechanism for her to be issued with letters of marque by an Irish authority. There is evidence (ye'll have to wait for the book) to suggest that she was issued some by Elizabeth in 1593 - having pledged to use her forces against her majesties enemies on land and sea and to place her fleet at the service of the Queen. Her ships were used to supply Conyers Clifford at Sligo during the Nine Years War.


    As for Drake etc - to the Spanish, whose ships they were seizing, they were pirates. Hawkins was attacking Spanish ships as far back as the 1560s - when there was no official declaration of war between England and Spain.


    I know wiki is disliked as a source but their piece on letters of marque is quite good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

    A letter of Marque was nothing but legalised piracy where the State took a cut of the profits.
    Looking forward to the book, but you need a more international title;)

    Titlewise - more concerned with historical accuracy then international sales figures. I am writing about people who fought and died to remain culturally Gaelic - so the least I can do is respect that and use their battle cry as they did. I refuse to Anglicise it. For the same reasons I use the Irish versions of their names unless they have Anglicised (i.e Hugh O Neill is referred to as Hugh O Neill but I use Áodh Ruadh Ua Domhnaill instead of Red Hugh O Donnell). Won't be changing that to suit an international audience either :p.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    As for Drake etc - to the Spanish, whose ships they were seizing, they were pirates. Hawkins was attacking Spanish ships as far back as the 1560s - when there was no official declaration of war between England and Spain.
    A letter of Marque was nothing but legalised piracy where the State took a cut of the profits.

    Thanks Bannasidhe,
    I don't want to get bogged down in a debate on LoM/piracy - anyone (Revenue, download sites, etc.) who grabs anything is regarded as a pirate by the victim. However, one of the specific purposes of a LoM is that war does not have to be declared. As recently as 2001 the US congress looked at a bill, (H.R.3076) -- September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 specifically targeting al Queda (see http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.+3076:_blank)

    The history article to which you linked says that her fleet estimates vary from five to twenty vessels at any one time. It also states that Dubhdara ferried Scottish mercenaries and traded raw materials.
    I don’t go with the idea that Grainne had ships based on the Viking longship (knarr or drakkar) – I would be more inclined to the idea of galleys and a smallish sized sailing vessel known as a cog. My guess is based on the carvel type of construction used in the West – Galway Bay hookers ( a much later design) are carvel built – i.e. the planks are butted together, rather than clinker built (overlapped). Cogs are of a much more sturdy construction, better for Atlantic seas and cargo-carrying, which is why they replaced the lnongship type vessels. The carvel construction is said to have been developed in Spain/Portugal, so it would have been quite familiar on the Western seaboard in the 16th century. There is a nice image of a cog here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bremen_Hansekogge_RolandvonBremen.JPG
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Titlewise - more concerned with historical accuracy then international sales figures. I am writing about people who fought and died to remain culturally Gaelic - so the least I can do is respect that and use their battle cry as they did. I refuse to Anglicise it. For the same reasons I use the Irish versions of their names unless they have Anglicised (i.e Hugh O Neill is referred to as Hugh O Neill but I use Áodh Ruadh Ua Domhnaill instead of Red Hugh O Donnell). Won't be changing that to suit an international audience either :p.

    Ah, the true academic, no interest in filthy lucre! My sister, Grainne (complete with fada) works internationally and is known as Grace outside of Ireland, even has separate business cards, as her name was a barrier. I'm not going to stand between you and your publisher.;)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Working on a publishable version, working title MacUilliam Abú.
    Will there be a Boards discount? :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭clashburke


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Working on a publishable version, working title MacUilliam Abú.


    Post here when its out please:D

    i love everything around the 9 Years War period even if not directly related!!


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