Donegal and the household charge

Scofflaw · 27-04-2012 02:05AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Clearly something amiss with this guff. Meath is an unemployment blackspot. The blackest of black spots. On that chart it's a contributor.

Hilfeckinlarious.

Dublin has probably the largest number of unemployed of any county, yet it's a net contributor because it also houses most of the businesses and many of their employees.

However, Dublin also has a commuter belt - particularly Meath and Kildare. Those counties may have areas of high unemployment, but they also have commuter towns like Sallins, and the income tax of those commuters is part of the contribution of the county. On balance, those counties come out ahead - the commuter take-home pay from Dublin jobs is sustaining the per-capita contribution. Meath unemployment is in line with the national average at 14.6% (see here), but it will have more better paid workers than other counties.

And looking at the absolute numbers of unemployed, you can see from the CSO that actually those counties don't actually contain a lot of unemployed people compared to other areas (deeper blues = greater numbers of unemployed):

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/statire/Graphics/PXiMap.asp?MainTable=LRH02&pxfile=36.px&TempPath=/statire/temp/&PXSId=36&InSB=true&PLanguage=0

What they are, however, are areas where unemployment has risen sharply (deeper browns are sharper rises from 2005 to 2009):

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/05/11/where-in-ireland-has-seen-the-biggest-increase-in-unemployment/

Looking at only one part of a statistical picture and relying on anecdotal evidence rarely give a useful view of what's happening.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Phill Ewinn · 27-04-2012 01:08PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Dublin has probably the largest number of unemployed of any county, yet it's a net contributor because it also houses most of the businesses and many of their employees.

However, Dublin also has a commuter belt - particularly Meath and Kildare. Those counties may have areas of high unemployment, but they also have commuter towns like Sallins, and the income tax of those commuters is part of the contribution of the county. On balance, those counties come out ahead - the commuter take-home pay from Dublin jobs is sustaining the per-capita contribution. Meath unemployment is in line with the national average at 14.6% (see here), but it will have more better paid workers than other counties.

And looking at the absolute numbers of unemployed, you can see from the CSO that actually those counties don't actually contain a lot of unemployed people compared to other areas (deeper blues = greater numbers of unemployed):

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/statire/Graphics/PXiMap.asp?MainTable=LRH02&pxfile=36.px&TempPath=/statire/temp/&PXSId=36&InSB=true&PLanguage=0

What they are, however, are areas where unemployment has risen sharply (deeper browns are sharper rises from 2005 to 2009):

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/05/11/where-in-ireland-has-seen-the-biggest-increase-in-unemployment/

Looking at only one part of a statistical picture and relying on anecdotal evidence rarely give a useful view of what's happening.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A recent article in the indo suggests that Meath is worse off than you think. Live rregister figures are falling more recently due to emigration.

CSOs figures sound convincing, in reality I'd say its codswallop.

Scofflaw · 27-04-2012 01:56PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

A recent article in the indo suggests that Meath is worse off than you think. Live rregister figures are falling more recently due to emigration.

CSOs figures sound convincing, in reality I'd say its codswallop.

Yes, I'm sure an Indo article would beat the CSO for numerical accuracy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Phill Ewinn · 27-04-2012 06:17PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure an Indo article would beat the CSO for numerical accuracy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I'm shure they're highly efficient!!!!! Just googled ''CSO figures wrong'' and the screen filled up.

Yeah, those CSO workers are so much more admirable than some dodgy government mouthpiece like the indo.

*Not*

meglome · 27-04-2012 06:43PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I'm shure they're highly efficient!!!!! Just googled ''CSO figures wrong'' and the screen filled up.

Yeah, those CSO workers are so much more admirable than some dodgy government mouthpiece like the indo.

*Not*

So if I get this you'd rather accept an opinion piece from the Indo (or your own limited experience) because you reckon the CSO figures are not 100%. Riiight.

n97 mini · 27-04-2012 08:52PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I'm shure they're highly efficient!!!!! Just googled ''CSO figures wrong'' and the screen filled up.

I just googled phill ewinn wrong and the screen filled up too!

n97 mini · 27-04-2012 08:53PM

2moreMinutes wrote: »

First we had the public v private divide, now we have the Donegal v rest of Ireland divide, what's up next?

Donegal public servants vs...?

meglome · 30-04-2012 05:27PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

CSO Regional income figures 2007: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2007/regincome_2007.pdf

These are the comparable 2009 figures (CSO), with CAP from here, GNI contribution based on household income without taxes or transfers:

County|Pop|Transfers(m)|Taxes(m)|Transfers pp|Taxes pp|CAP(m)|CAP pp|GNI pp|Final Net pp
Carlow|54255|368|191|6782.79|3520.41|37.78|696.35|206.77|3751.96
Cavan|68585.68|397|250|5788.38|3645.08|67.06|977.77|212.75|2908.33
Clare|114922.3|652|488|5673.4|4246.35|84.62|736.32|232.88|1930.49
Cork|502128.26|2984|2337|5942.7|4654.19|237.63|473.24|251.33|1510.43
Donegal|157838.27|1056|444|6690.39|2813.01|96.3|610.09|170.67|4316.81
Dublin|1211506.83|7175|7965|5922.38|6574.46|23.74|19.6|323.44|-955.92
Galway|241232.03|1493|1032|6189.06|4278.04|151.08|626.29|240.34|2296.98
Kerry|145875.68|861|511|5902.29|3502.98|109.82|752.84|203.01|2949.13
Kildare|205969.74|1017|1158|4937.62|5622.19|41.51|201.53|289|-772.04
Kilkenny|94325.11|513|377|5438.64|3996.81|74.61|790.96|226.34|2006.45
Laois|72128.96|397|283|5504.03|3923.53|51.02|707.28|223.77|2064.01
Leitrim|31038.66|200|107|6443.58|3447.31|39.21|1263.22|207.8|4051.69
Limerick|190673.58|1309|824|6865.14|4321.52|77.98|408.96|235.93|2716.65
Longford|36954.84|257|131|6954.43|3544.87|33.32|901.66|200.34|4110.88
Louth|119233.16|777|462|6516.64|3874.76|26.88|225.44|227.13|2640.2
Mayo|128974.54|818|454|6342.34|3520.07|119.11|923.53|207.75|3538.05
Meath|180031.48|799|963|4438.11|5349.06|64.92|360.58|279.09|-829.46
Monaghan|60018.88|352|194|5864.82|3232.32|54.12|901.72|190.84|3343.39
North-Tipperary|68376.48|424|277|6200.96|4051.1|72.23|1056.35|231.4|2974.82
Offaly|76204.29|442|267|5800.2|3503.74|49.97|655.73|203.32|2748.87
Roscommon|61178.29|347|224|5671.95|3661.43|66.38|1085.05|216.22|2879.35
Sligo|65289.94|407|265|6233.73|4058.82|44.54|682.21|231.19|2625.94
South-Tipperary|89663.76|555|354|6189.79|3948.08|72.23|805.56|223.35|2823.92
Waterford|116320.65|774|454|6654.02|3903|55.09|473.62|218.27|3006.36
Westmeath|85325.95|533|334|6246.63|3914.4|54.06|633.55|219.92|2745.86
Wexford|141932.52|921|497|6489|3501.66|84.12|592.68|206.48|3373.53
Wicklow|139510.07|716|724|5132.25|5189.59|38.28|274.41|265.19|-48.12

So, Donegal people are net recipients from the whole system to the tune of €4,316.81 per capita annually. I should perhaps point out that I don't begrudge this transfer, but I do object very strongly to people at the other end pretending it doesn't happen.

From the Journal today. http://www.thejournal.ie/ulster-counties-lead-table-of-household-charge-boycotts-434566-Apr2012/

County by county: payment of the household charge

Carlow: 6,485 of 18,257 (35.5%)
Cavan: 8,808 of 25,611 (34.4%)
Clare: 17,819 of 45,786 (38.9%)
Cork City: 17,565 of 41,649 (42.2%)
Cork County: 56,621 of 143,887 (39.4%)
Donegal: 17,408 of 65,331 (26.6%)
Dublin City: 99,179 of 190,685 (52.0%)
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown: 49,572 of 74,390 (66.6%)
Fingal: 45,046 of 90,286 (49.9%)
Galway City: 13,313 of 27,086 (49.2%)
Galway County: 23,739 of 62,851 (37.8%)
Kerry: 22,780 of 58,792 (38.7%)
Kildare: 30,786 of 68,215 (45.1%)
Kilkenny: 12,686 of 32,067 (39.6%)
Laois: 9,124 of 26,185 (34.8%)
Leitrim: 4,913 of 13,069 (37.6%)
Limerick City: 8,487 of 20,380 (41.6%)
Limerick County: 18,426 of 46,473 (39.6%)
Longford: 4,637 of 12,928 (35.9%)
Louth: 14,222 of 41,176 (34.5%)
Mayo: 19,997 of 51,363 (38.9%)
Meath: 24,090 of 60,652 (39.7%)
Monaghan: 5,660 of 20,176 (28.1%)
North Tipperary: 9,572 of 24,839 (38.5%)
Offaly: 8,124 of 25,224 (32.2%)
Roscommon: 8,280 of 23,888 (34.7%)
Sligo: 10,423 of 25,281 (41.2%)
South Dublin: 38,370 of 81,822 (46.9%)
South Tipperary: 11,318 of 30,368 (37.3%)
Waterford City: 6,166 of 15,753 (39.1%)
Waterford County: 9,181 of 24,777 (37.1%)
Westmeath: 10,341 of 29,872 (34.6%)
Wexford: 20,873 of 56,030 (37.3%)
Wicklow: 21,431 of 45,665 (46.9%)

I think it's very interesting indeed that the counties who are the largest recipients of tax over what they pay are the same counties with the lowest payment of the household charge. With Donegal being the main culprit. I think this speaks volumes about the attitudes many of us believe are prevalent in Ireland.

Scofflaw · 01-05-2012 12:16AM

meglome wrote: »

From the Journal today. http://www.thejournal.ie/ulster-counties-lead-table-of-household-charge-boycotts-434566-Apr2012/

I think it's very interesting indeed that the counties who are the largest recipients of tax over what they pay are the same counties with the lowest payment of the household charge. With Donegal being the main culprit. I think this speaks volumes about the attitudes many of us believe are prevalent in Ireland.

It's actually an almost exact match:

More social transfers per person & less payment of household charge to the right. Linear regression trend line added. That's Donegal at the bottom right.

amused,
Scofflaw

meglome · 01-05-2012 10:55AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's actually an almost exact match:

More social transfers per person & less payment of household charge to the right. Linear regression trend line added. That's Donegal at the bottom right.

amused,
Scofflaw

Thanks for that. It certainly looked that way but nice to see it charted.

n97 mini · 01-05-2012 11:08AM

Is there a greater sense of entitlement in some areas?

Permabear · 01-05-2012 11:17AM

This post has been deleted.

n97 mini · 01-05-2012 11:24AM

Ulster says no, eh?

meglome · 01-05-2012 02:05PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It explains Donegal having the lowest figure but it still doesn't look good generally for all those counties. To be honest it kinda angers me.

Scofflaw · 02-05-2012 12:09AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'd buy that if Donegal were a statistical outlier. The problem is that it isn't. I wouldn't be particularly surprised by a correlation between Sinn Fein support and social transfers, and I suspect that both of them relate to the same underlying causes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

mistermouse · 02-05-2012 02:38AM

I wouldn't think Donegal is a 'Sinn Fein' Stronghold. In the last election Donegal changed from being a very strong Fianna Fail county.

SW Donegal dropped Mary Coughlan and rightly so, it was a bit of a fight for the last seat, but the county in general didn't have great choice of candidates overall.
Doherty is a fairly well liked politician and does well on his own, regardless of Party, he also forced the by-election beforehand. Some of the other candidates were terrible
Lots who got in are first time TDs and would surely be playing to popular opinion

I paid the Charge in Donegal, though have grieviances as to Council Tennants being exempt and the wastage in all Local Authorities in the county

I also don't relish the thought of it being raised, but do believe everyone should pay something.

I pay substantial Road Tax in Donegal and do not get near service or value for it, but I am amazed to pay for what Letterkenny Council are putting up for the running of 2 town parks and exempting Council Tennants. I use neither Park, and I know of the wastage and poor decisions of Council Houses/Estates

christmas2012 · 03-05-2012 04:58PM

nobody should pay that household charge its akin to a loan shark sticking out the paw saying give us the money or else..f*** them

Where To · 03-05-2012 05:29PM

I wonder what the figures are for transfers between Donegal and HM Treasury.

I'd imagine they would be proportionally much higher than anywhere else in Ireland.

meglome · 03-05-2012 05:29PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

nobody should pay that household charge its akin to a loan shark sticking out the paw saying give us the money or else..f*** them

You really didn't read any of this thread did you? I suggest you do and see how your comment then stands up.

Hell even just go to the previous page and read that.

christmas2012 · 03-05-2012 06:14PM

re meglome: the start of the thread reads as: ''Donegal County Council has made a landmark decision to instruct Council staff not to access utility information from those boycotting the Household Charge.''..I am fully within my right to comment on household charges as i am subject to one just like everyone else in ireland..

meglome · 03-05-2012 06:25PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

re meglome: the start of the thread reads as: ''Donegal County Council has made a landmark decision to instruct Council staff not to access utility information from those boycotting the Household Charge.''..I am fully within my right to comment on household charges as i am subject to one just like everyone else in ireland..

Sorry wasn't suggesting otherwise. However looking at the thread it's quite obvious what you had to say doesn't hold up. I dunno why not see if there's something to learn.

MadsL · 07-05-2012 01:28PM

Firblog wrote: »

An Taisce... Oh that body.. controlled by people who live in cities and have holiday homes in the country; near which they don't want locals to build; in short a discredited organisation..

What a bizarre comment and entirely incorrect.

An Taisce is run by a Council of Representatives from each county where there is a Local Association. Each council meeting has attendees from all across the country, who live and work in the areas they represent. This council elects a chair and a board who in turn employ AT staff.

meglome · 24-05-2012 11:25AM

Thought this might be relevant to this thread.

IRELAND RANKS among the EU countries with the lowest tax revenues and only Slovakia has lower revenues in the euro zone, a new study has found.

...

Irish tax revenue compared to gross domestic product was 28.2 per cent, a little above fellow euro country Slovakia (28.1 per cent) and in the same league as Bulgaria (27.4 per cent) and Latvia (27.3 per cent).

The lowest tax revenue was in Lithuania (27.1 per cent) and the highest was in Denmark (47.6 per cent) which was followed by Sweden (45.8 per cent).

While tax revenue rates were higher in the countries which were in the EU before the 2004 expansion, Ireland and its fellow bailout recipients were outliers.

“The exceptions are Ireland and Greece, whose tax ratios are amongst the lowest in the EU; the Portuguese overall tax ratio, having increased by half a point in 2010, is now ranking just above Greece’s.” The Greek revenue rate was 31 per cent of GDP in 2010.

“From 1999 to 2002, Ireland reduced the total tax burden across the board from 31.5 per cent to just 28.3 per cent of GDP,” the study found. “Since 2002, however, the total tax ratio has increased every year, reaching 32.0 per cent in 2006, in large part due to a surge in VAT receipts, capital gains tax and stamp duties. This upward trend was interrupted in 2007 when the total tax ratio decreased by almost one percentage point.

In 2009, total tax revenue to GDP reached the lowest value and remained at the same level in 2010.

http://www.independent.ie/business/european/g8-summit-lessons-in-stimulus-versus-austerity-around-the-g8-3111859.html

Icepick · 24-05-2012 04:15PM

meglome wrote: »

IRELAND RANKS among the EU countries with the lowest tax revenues and only Slovakia has lower revenues in the euro zone, a new study has found.

No surprise that small open economies dependent on FDI have the lowest %.

Donegal and the household charge

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