Vets being replaced by Agricultural officiers in Meat Factory

highcream · 27-04-2012 10:43AM

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

Sorry just read this now.Agree totally.
The guys who were slow learners in school should defo take over from the whizkids(vets,doctors,dentists).
Makes perfect sense.
Hey,i could pull a tooth easily.
Maybe i should start charging dentists fees
Lol
Amazing when u are at the top in terms of education/career the amount of people who want to take u down:)

5live · 27-04-2012 10:57AM

highcream wrote: »

Sorry just read this now.Agree totally.
The guys who were slow learners in school should defo take over from the whizkids(vets,doctors,dentists).
Makes perfect sense.
Hey,i could pull a tooth easily.
Maybe i should start charging dentists fees
Lol
Amazing when u are at the top in terms of education/career the amount of people who want to take u down:)

Are you implying that because i am a farmer i am not competent to carry out a C-section?

kippy · 27-04-2012 11:06AM

5live wrote: »

Are you implying that because i am a farmer i am not competent to carry out a C-section?

Looks like it.
Right now, to be fair, you're probably not. Not because you are a farmer mind, but because you haven't received the required training to do so.

I think anything done by a professional can be made to look easy, however when the mostly "standard" procedures get complicated, thats when the training and knowledge comes in.
I'm not a vet by the way and would never want to be exposed to those types of hours and types of work.

5live · 27-04-2012 11:11AM

kippy wrote: »

Looks like it.
Right now, to be fair, you're probably not. Not because you are a farmer mind, but because you haven't received the required training to do so.

I think anything done by a professional can be made to look easy, however when the mostly "standard" procedures get complicated, thats when the training and knowledge comes in.
I'm not a vet by the way and would never want to be exposed to those types of hours and types of work.

And who said i havent recieved the right training;)

kippy · 27-04-2012 11:12AM

5live wrote: »

And who said i havent recieved the right training;)

No one, including yourself up until this point.
So you've undertaken veterinary training?

5live · 27-04-2012 11:25AM

kippy wrote: »

No one, including yourself up until this point.
So you've undertaken veterinary training?

Not saying i have or havent. But i can PM you with the answer:p

highcream · 27-04-2012 02:22PM

5live wrote: »

Are you implying that because i am a farmer i am not competent to carry out a C-section?

No,i am saying u have not earned the right to practice veterinary medicine.
The average lay person could probably be trained to do a c section on an animal as well as a human.Same operation.
I can drive a car but i dont go around passing myself off as a taxi man.
I can write my signature on a repeat prescription.This doesnt mean i am entitled to prescribe a medicine and charge 20 euro for it.
It is illegal for a lay person to practice veterinary medicine not to mention incredibly cruel.
If u want to carry out a c section on an animal.Go back to school.Score in the top 5% in the country in your leaving cert.Then complete arguably the most difficult/rigorous college course worldwide.
Then u are ENTITLED to carry out a c section on an animal.

Traonach · 27-04-2012 02:57PM

5live wrote: »

The op is relitively easy. Its the drugs used and the prescribing of them that would cause a problem

Totally untrue.
What about when the calf-bed is twisted.
When the vet has to do a section with the cow down.
When the cow has been calving along time and the calf-bed can't be exteriorised.
When the calf is dead and rotten.
When the calf is coming backwards.
When the cow is mad and vicious and the vet risks her life doing the section.
When the cow has had previous sections and everything inside is stuck together.
When the vet has to do the section on the right hand side.

SoJoMo · 27-04-2012 03:33PM

the reason I dont drive a taxi is because its regulated with licenses not because I cant or couldn't learn to drive a car with paying passengers.
What the success rate of c-sections that end up being complex?

Of course vets dont want farmers performing their own c-section s (calf coming backways ... c-section, difficult calving .... c-section = €200+ - its one of their biggest earners

of course vets dont want farmers performing TB etc test - its one of their biggest earners

of course vets dont want farmers to know and be able to perscribe medicines - its a big earner.

someone asked about vet charges in UK ... a friends cousin farms up north and his Vets call out fee £25 !! As for the price of medicines .... up to half the price!

bob charles · 27-04-2012 03:54PM

highcream wrote: »

It is illegal for a lay person to practice veterinary medicine not to mention incredibly cruel.

is it? your certain of that? obvisouly to practice for reward it would be, but all other circumstances.

LostCovey · 28-04-2012 08:09PM

blue5000 wrote: »

Greysides up until this yr due to the poor success rate and lowish value of cattle it was uneconimic to call out a vet. What is the point of having a vet bill of 5/6 k and a knackery bill? We were better off with a box of cartridges.

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

Too many people seem to be calling a vet after trying every thing else first (including the internet in SOME cases) then crying about success rates.

LostCovey · 28-04-2012 08:20PM

Farmers should definitely do their own TB tests tag the reactors and deal with all the paperwork, I don't see the problem there. Unless someone is implying that they wouldn't be impartial.

I am not trying to rile people here, but there's a good few lads I know who can't hang a gate, keep silage plastic off the bushes or wash their hands - the idea of them doing surgery is absolutely hilarious. I haven't laughed out loud reading posts for a while (not at the posters themselves, but at the image of where some of the dafter suggestions here would end up).

I was just picturing a few lads I know trying to close a c section with baler twine & pallets.

Have a good weekend boys & girls, ye have cheered me up no end.

pajero12 · 29-04-2012 02:46PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

After witnessing a particular section this morning, I hope this never happens, I have no doubt in my mind, If anyone less than a very experienced vet did the job, the cow would be dead now!

5live · 30-04-2012 11:45AM

highcream wrote: »

No,i am saying u have not earned the right to practice veterinary medicine.
The average lay person could probably be trained to do a c section on an animal as well as a human.Same operation.
I can drive a car but i dont go around passing myself off as a taxi man.
I can write my signature on a repeat prescription.This doesnt mean i am entitled to prescribe a medicine and charge 20 euro for it.
It is illegal for a lay person to practice veterinary medicine not to mention incredibly cruel.
If u want to carry out a c section on an animal.Go back to school.Score in the top 5% in the country in your leaving cert.Then complete arguably the most difficult/rigorous college course worldwide.
Then u are ENTITLED to carry out a c section on an animal.

. Is it cold up there on that high horse?

2 sections. One on a cow that died waiting for the vet. On the line to the vet when she dropped, heavily pregnant, got the ok from the vet to cut and pull. Live charolais heifer calf which would have died had i not acted. That sure was cruel on the calf, to give her a chance of life:rolleyes:
One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics. All 3 survived.
All legal and above board. No exotic complications (bar location). Veterinary supervision after the fact.

I have seen enough sections to be able to carry out the basics, in situations of animal welfare. Its not brain surgery or astrophysics. Due post-operative care was given both cases and appropriate prescription of antibiotics was given.

But i suppose it would have been ok to let all the animals die to appease your bleeding heart. So no years of study and still have, barely, the ability to carry out a succesful operation.

Jesus wept:eek:

Lizard_Moon · 30-04-2012 01:37PM

5live wrote: »

2 sections. One on a cow that died waiting for the vet. On the line to the vet when she dropped, heavily pregnant, got the ok from the vet to cut and pull. Live charolais heifer calf which would have died had i not acted. That sure was cruel on the calf, to give her a chance of life:rolleyes:
One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics. All 3 survived.
All legal and above board. No exotic complications (bar location). Veterinary supervision after the fact.

I have seen enough sections to be able to carry out the basics, in situations of animal welfare. Its not brain surgery or astrophysics. Due post-operative care was given both cases and appropriate prescription of antibiotics was given.

But i suppose it would have been ok to let all the animals die to appease your bleeding heart. So no years of study and still have, barely, the ability to carry out a succesful operation

As a vet I have avoided this thread as I cannot understand why this is even being considered. However the above requires a reply.

1- first you opened a dead cow. Fine no welfare problems there. No pain caused to the cow. No legal problems as far as I am aware as carrying out an act of butchery- cutting up a dead animal. Although why did she die? Was there much intervention beforehand?

2- where abroad? Are we talking EU or third world. If third world then absolutley no comparison to here.
Why was the cow let get into that state? Did you fail to monitor her calving so that an early intervention could be carried out? Was any local anaesthetic given to the cow? Your cow lived, in spite of yr treatment. Cows are great, the ones you expect to die can live.
Yes you managed slice the cow to get the calf out but the real skill is in putting everything back together. You did NOT carry out the op successfully as the VET had to stitch it all up.

You talk about animal welfare. You talk about farmers being professional enough to do sections. How about farmers doing what they are responsible for correctly. Put animals in calf that can carry and deliver a pregnancy. Use bulls that don't need sections. Don't put immature heifers in calf. Monitor cows calving.

Most farmers do the above. If they have sections, well they did everything to avoid them. Anyone can get caught out and this year they are more common than ever.

A section is a tool we use to prevent undue suffering to the cow and calf. It should not be considered a routine management tool. A good outcome is not guaranteed every time. Disasters occur. If you think sections are easy it's because your experienced vet makes them look like that.

Finally the original query was not relating to last ditch, life or death situations.

5live · 30-04-2012 02:24PM

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

As a vet I have avoided this thread as I cannot understand why this is even being considered. However the above requires a reply.

1- first you opened a dead cow. Fine no welfare problems there. No pain caused to the cow. No legal problems as far as I am aware as carrying out an act of butchery- cutting up a dead animal. Although why did she die? Old age, should have been gone but not my decision. Was there much intervention beforehand?. Lots

2- where abroad? Are we talking EU or third world. If third world then absolutley no comparison to here. There are locations in the first world where vets are not available on demand, in fact not so far from these shores
Why was the cow let get into that state? Again poor management decision. Did you fail to monitor her calving so that an early intervention could be carried out? Again, not my responsibility. Was any local anaesthetic given to the cow? None:(. Your(?) cow lived, in spite of yr(?) treatment. Cows are great, the ones you expect to die can live. So very true.
Yes you managed slice the cow to get the calf out but the real skill is in putting everything back together. Never said it wasnt. You did NOT carry out the op successfully as the VET had to stitch it all up. ...but kept them alive long enough that the vet COULD stitch it all back together when he subsequently arrived

You talk about animal welfare. You talk about farmers being professional enough to do sections. How about farmers doing what they are responsible for correctly. Put animals in calf that can carry and deliver a pregnancy. Use bulls that don't need sections. See certain breed societies about that Don't put immature heifers in calf. Never said any different Monitor cows calving. Never said any different, always done here

Most farmers do the above. If they have sections, well they did everything to avoid them. Anyone can get caught out and this year they are more common than ever. Yes they did

A section is a tool we use to prevent undue suffering to the cow and calf. It should not be considered a routine management tool. Again, never said they should be, probably should lecture to other sections gathered around, 15 years since last section A good outcome is not guaranteed every time. Disasters occur. If you think sections are easy it's because your experienced vet makes them look like that. Never said he didnt

Finally the original query was not relating to last ditch, life or death situations.Original query stated farmers could never do sections

Ok?

LostCovey · 30-04-2012 07:35PM

5live wrote: »

Ok?

OK to open a living creature's abdomen with a knife without an anaesthetic for profit?

OK to leave her like that till somebody came along with the skills to repair the damage you did?

OK to brag about it?

Nope.

LC

Lizard_Moon · 30-04-2012 07:50PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

5Live: No they were not talking about emergency, back of beyonds, everything else fecked sections they were talking about sections as a routine farmer management procedure.

SoJoMo wrote: »

Of course vets dont want farmers performing their own c-section s = €200+ - its one of their biggest earners

Take away the cost of the suture materials, medicines, equipment, disinfectants, autoclave to sterilise the kit, gowns and gloves.
Take away the cost of the diesel to get there, the mobile phone rental, the bonus you pay your assistant for getting up at 3 am.
Take away the long term damage done to your back by doing c-sections down when the farmer has dogged it, the kicks from inadequate facilities.

Money is NOT a motivator for veterinary, especially in certain parts of the country. As I assume it is not a motivator for many farmers in those same parts of the country

Traonach · 30-04-2012 09:29PM

5live wrote: »

. Is it cold up there on that high horse?

2 sections. One on a cow that died waiting for the vet. On the line to the vet when she dropped, heavily pregnant, got the ok from the vet to cut and pull. Live charolais heifer calf which would have died had i not acted. That sure was cruel on the calf, to give her a chance of life:rolleyes:

If the cow was dead how could the calf be alive, since the calf needs the dam to be alive.

One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics.

What did you clamp to stop the bleeding???

LostCovey · 30-04-2012 10:23PM

Hello Boys & Girls,

Here is today's fable:

A factory had to cease operations when a vital piece of machinery broke down. Try as they might, the firm's own mechanics couldn't get it working again. The factory owner called in an outside expert.

He looked the situation over, listened to the machine, checked some switches and gauges, then went to his tool box. He took a hammer and hit the machine lightly in a certain spot…and it immediately started running beautifully.

He then submitted a bill for €1,000, which made the factory owner hit the ceiling! He demanded an itemised bill.

The expert took back the bill, wrote on it for a moment, then handed it back to the factory owner.

This is what it said:

Item #1 Hitting the machine… €10.00
Item #2 Knowing where to hit…€990.00

And they all lived happily ever after.

LostCovey

blue5000 · 30-04-2012 10:26PM

Traonach wrote: »

If the cow was dead how could the calf be alive, since the calf needs the dam to be alive.

What did you clamp to stop the bleeding???

I'm guessing a vicegrips:)

Traonach · 30-04-2012 10:44PM

blue5000 wrote: »

I'm guessing a vicegrips:)

Probably a rusty one, but it's ok he knew what he was doing....

5live · 30-04-2012 11:09PM

Traonach wrote: »

Probably a rusty one, but it's ok he knew what he was doing....

Dont keep rusty vicegrips, looked after and put away in their proper place;). We used a needle and thread and actually a few clothes pegs to reduce the flow of blood.

5live · 30-04-2012 11:11PM

Traonach wrote: »

If the cow was dead how could the calf be alive, since the calf needs the dam to be alive.

What did you clamp to stop the bleeding???

The calf will still be alive for about a minute(?) or so after the blood flow stops so still alive till then. Very visible in factories, apparently. But you knew that already....

Lizard_Moon · 01-05-2012 09:14AM

5live wrote: »

Dont keep rusty vicegrips, looked after and put away in their proper place;). We used a needle and thread and actually a few clothes pegs to reduce the flow of blood.

All packed away in your little ' what to use when I have fecked up a calving and didn't bother getting help earlier kit'???

You seem to think what you did was great, I think you should never have been in that situation.
We all make mistakes, wrong judgements, but don't go around saying how wonderful we were to get a live calf out by butchering a cow we killed by trying to dog it- you said so in your reply to my earlier post that there was LOTS of intervention

You are encouraging others to do as you did, which is horrendous.

Again my point instead of Farmers wanting to get 'trained up' to do c-sections they should concentrate on their responsibilities first.

Good breeding management. Good facilities. Good relationship with your vet and the knowledge to know when to call for help.

whelan1 · 01-05-2012 09:28AM

a few years ago , i cut my arm when vaccinating the cows i came off worse between a cow and the bar off the crush, local gp lives up the road, he put 4 stitches in with no anaesthetic, now it was sore could feel the needle and thread going in and out but i survived- just about:rolleyes:-anaesthetic was not reccommended because where the cut was it could relax me and i could pump blood... now i am not for farmers doing what a vet should but in emergency situations needs must

highcream · 01-05-2012 02:45PM

bob charles wrote: »

is it? your certain of that? obvisouly to practice for reward it would be, but all other circumstances.

Good point.
Spoke to my uncle this morning(vet in the department).
Yes,it is illegal to perform any veterinary surgery unless u have special dispensation(or something like that) from the veterinary council.The latter is basically 2 guys on the UCD vet farm who perform sections on sheep and always did.
He is very pedantic so i would say he is right.
Also,the medicines/anaesthetic for the surgery/after care of a C section performed by a lay person would be illegal to prescribe for that purpose.
Apparently,a vet shop is not supposed to be like a sweet shop where u just buy what u want(i know it doesnt work this way in reality,but still thats the law).

I never said a farmer could not perform a c section if u read my post properly.I actually stated a lay person could be trained to do it.
I have 2 uncles who are farmers.One uses pallets as a crush,the other i would trust doing surgery.
Anyway,at least its all settled now.

P.s.Please dont try to start a cyber argument with me cos of this post.The are futile and im just giving the facts.

pajero12 · 01-05-2012 04:40PM

highcream wrote: »

Good point.
Spoke to my uncle this morning(vet in the department).
Yes,it is illegal to perform any veterinary surgery unless u have special dispensation(or something like that) from the veterinary council.The latter is basically 2 guys on the UCD vet farm who perform sections on sheep and always did.
He is very pedantic so i would say he is right.
Also,the medicines/anaesthetic for the surgery/after care of a C section performed by a lay person would be illegal to prescribe for that purpose.
Apparently,a vet shop is not supposed to be like a sweet shop where u just buy what u want(i know it doesnt work this way in reality,but still thats the law).

I never said a farmer could not perform a c section if u read my post properly.I actually stated a lay person could be trained to do it.
I have 2 uncles who are farmers.One uses pallets as a crush,the other i would trust doing surgery.
Anyway,at least its all settled now.

P.s.Please dont try to start a cyber argument with me cos of this post.The are futile and im just giving the facts.

Without being pedantic, Anaesthetic and PenStrep arent hard come by!

Traonach · 01-05-2012 07:07PM

5live wrote: »

.
One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics. All 3 survived.
All legal and above board. No exotic complications (bar location). Veterinary supervision after the fact.

Why did you "c-section" the cow/heifer with twins? Did you use local? What did the clothes peg stop bleeding?

LostCovey · 02-05-2012 01:34AM

whelan1 wrote: »

... now i am not for farmers doing what a vet should but in emergency situations needs must

If something is cruel and illegal, it is still cruel and illegal in an "emergency situation", especially if the "emergency situation" is one artificially contrived by poor bull choice, lack of preparation, slack supervision, panicky decision-making, etc.

And the prospect of losing a few hundred in the value of a calf is not enough of an emergency in my book to butcher a poor dumb animal utterly in our control and at our mercy (!).

Cutting open cows without anaesthetic to drag out a calf for commercial gain is a crime in this country, remember that, when all this macho posturing about hairy chested butchering of live pregnant cows and the nonsense about heroics with clothes pegs dies down.

Comparing getting a few stitches in a skin wound without an anaesthetic with a raw caesarian section done by an amateur is quite absurd.

I feel your pain Whelan1, but it was nothing compared to what that cow was put through.

We still haven't heard where that allegedly happened, or what was clamped with clothes pegs to stop bleeding.

It sounds utterly horrendous.

LC

Vets being replaced by Agricultural officiers in Meat Factory

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