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Abortion

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    #872
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I'd suggest when it can be classified as an organism.
    Would that be before gastrulation?


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    #873
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We can't. The 5000+ is just the known figures. What the actual numbers are is anyones guess
    Sadly they are probably higher. So if a woman travels to an abortion clinic in another country, she doesn't have to state her nationality?


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    #874
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Would that be before gastrulation?
    No, a few weeks after after.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Fertilisation would be the point at which you could safely say "Human life(lives)". Gastrulation is by and large the first stage where you could relatively speaking safely say "Human life" in the singular.

    Fertilisation would be the point which you could safely say "life" begins. But cellular life is not "human life".


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    #875
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Sadly they are probably higher. So if a woman travels to an abortion clinic in another country, she doesn't have to state her nationality?

    No. You are asked but you don't have to tell them or you can tell them and ask them to take it off your file so you are unregistered.


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    #876
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Amazing that you seem capable of using sarcasm...yet are completely incapable of detecting it in other people's posts... Funny that :D

    Sarcastic? I assumed you considered your 'point' well and truly dealt with?

    Well, this is unusual.
    Oh! The answer was "the woman", by the by. That might clear things up.


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    #877
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    No, a few weeks after after.


    Fertilisation would be the point which you could safely say "life" begins. But cellular life is not "human life".

    Which is why I said gastrulation/neurulation would be a fitting stage for defining the start point of an individual's life.


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    #878
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Which is why I said gastrulation/neurulation is an appropriate point to say "This is the earliest stage at which which we can definitively say is the start point of an individual's life."

    But it's not an "individual's life", where "individual" means a "person" or "human being".

    It's a cellular structure that consists of human DNA, but it's not a "person" or "human being". As such it wouldn't, in my opinion, qualify for a right to life.


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    #879
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    But it's not an "individual's life", where "individual" means a "person" or "human being".

    It's a cellular structure that consists of human DNA, but it's not a "person" or "human being". As such it wouldn't, in my opinion, qualify for a right to life.
    The thing is, that doesn't make much sense to me.

    How on earth is it reasonable to say that a person who say lived to the age of 100 was "not human" for the first 20 weeks of their life?


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    #880
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We don't know what legal abortion will do to the figures. The 5000+ women who go to the uk every year will increase because those are the women clinics know are Irish, a lot don't give any personal details, some also go to other countries, some do the abortion here at home. So yes the numbers will increase but thats to be expected when you are dealing with skewed numbers from the outset.

    It seems numbers do rise at first when abortion is introduced, probably for factors like the above, but European rates are dropping, the UK the main exception. People seem to look at the UK for trends when it should be the last country we look at.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #881
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The thing is, that doesn't make much sense to me.

    How on earth is it reasonable to say that a person who say lived to the age of 100 was "not human" for the first 20 weeks of their life?

    The same way it's reasonable to say a seed is not a tree.


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    #882
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    The same way it's reasonable to say a seed is not a tree.
    A seed is more like an embryo which hasn't even begun cleavage let alone been implanted.

    An implanted embryo that has begun to gastrulate/neurulate would be better compared to a seedling.

    There's a big difference between the two.


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    #883
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    A seed is more like an embryo which hasn't even begun cleavage let alone been implanted.

    An implanted embryo that has begun to gastrulate/neurulate would be better compared to a seedling.

    There's a big difference between the two.

    The point is just because something "is" doesn't mean it always "was".


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    #884
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Seachmall wrote: »
    The point is just because something "is" doesn't mean it always "was".
    ...Or that it "will be".


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    #885
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    K-9 wrote: »
    It seems numbers do rise at first when abortion is introduced, probably for factors like the above, but European rates are dropping, the UK the main exception. People seem to look at the UK for trends when it should be the last country we look at.

    Why should it be the last, particularly given our cultural and social similarities, geographical closeness etc, one would think it would be as good a place as any to start?


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    #886
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    The point is just because something "is" doesn't mean it always "was".
    Could you please explain the developmental change in the hypothetical 100 year old man that made him human? At what stage did he become a distinct human individual?

    Was it when he was a blastula, gastrula, neurula or just after the phylotypic stage?

    Or is it just "X number of weeks" where X is arbitrarily chosen according to how close the embryo looks to a full term baby?


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    #887
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    prinz wrote: »
    Why should it be the last, particularly given our cultural and social similarities, geographical closeness etc, one would think it would be as good a place as any to start?

    Well for one thing, the fact that people from Ireland are throwing off the numbers.


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    #888
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Could you please explain the developmental change in the hypothetical 100 year old man that made him human? At what stage did he become a distinct human individual?

    Was it when he was a blastula, gastrula, neurula or just after the phylotypic stage?

    Or is it just "X number of weeks" where X is arbitrarily chosen according to how close the embryo looks to a full term baby?

    It's when he develops into a distinct organism.

    When he is a gastrula he is a cellular structure or tissue containing human DNA. He will develop into a human being but at that moment, frozen in time, he is a structure of cells.

    I could take a knife and carve tissue off my arm.

    In terms of rights to life they are the equivalent to each other. What they will become and what they were are irrelevant, at that moment they are both cellular structures.

    I don't know the exact stage of this, I don't think there is an exact stage, which is why I don't discuss weeks or terms.

    I'm curious as to why you've chosen gastrulation. I understand it's an important stage in development, but none-the-less it seems like an ultimately arbitrary period to choose.


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    #889
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    It's when he develops into a distinct organism.
    A gastrula is a distinct organism.
    When he is a gastrula he is a cellular structure or tissue containing human DNA. He will develop into a human being but at that moment, frozen in time, he is a structure of cells.
    I apologise if this sounds condescending but I want to make it clear that's not my intention. Do you know the exact meaning of gastrula? If you think a gastrula is a "cellular structure or tissue containing human DNA" then you're a "cellular structure or tissue containing human DNA" too. A gastrula is very different from a cleaved zygote or even blastula.
    I could take a knife and carve tissue off my arm.
    In which case you'd be carving away some epithelial, connective and muscle tissue as thanks to cell division you have the capacity to regenerate a certain amount of tissue.
    In terms of rights to life they are the equivalent to each other. What they will become and what they were are irrelevant, at that moment they are both cellular structures.

    I don't know the exact stage of this, I don't think there is an exact stage, which is why I don't discuss weeks or terms.

    I'm curious as to why you've chosen gastrulation. I understand it's an important stage in development, but none-the-less it seems like an ultimately arbitrary period to choose.
    Gastrulation is in many ways the most important stage in an individual's life. It turns what some would perceive to be a "ball of unrecognisable cells" in to an organised structure of three germ layers that define the main structure of the body. If there's any stage that's worthy of the title "Starting point of an individual's life" it's gastrulation.


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    #890
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    The EU rate are droping because they have good comprehensive sexual health education in secondary schools and many have free contraception for those under 25.
    Where as here too many of the schools can't or won't teach such programs.


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    #891
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    If there's any stage that's worthy of the title "Starting point of an individual's life" it's gastrulation.
    Personally I would define the end of an individual's life when their brain is no longer capable of its higher functions, irregardless of the physical state of the rest of the body. So I would somewhat similarly define the starting point roughly around when the brain is developed enough for those higher functions to start. I'm not sure what stage of a fetuses development that would be.


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    #892
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    prinz wrote: »
    Why should it be the last, particularly given our cultural and social similarities, geographical closeness etc, one would think it would be as good a place as any to start?

    We maybe culturally similar in many ways, but definitely not on Abortion!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #893
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Our attitudes to sex are worlds apart for sure.


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    #894
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I apologise if this sounds condescending but I want to make it clear that's not my intention. Do you know the exact meaning of gastrula? If you think a gastrula is a "cellular structure or tissue containing human DNA" then you're a "cellular structure or tissue containing human DNA" too. A gastrula is very different from a cleaved zygote or even blastula.

    As far as I was aware gastrulation was the formation of a cellular structure from which organs, and thus organ system, begin to form. The gastrula in and off itself is not an organism, but a cellular structure.

    I'm happy to be corrected, I'm no biologist, but that's what I've been led to believe.


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    #895
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Knasher wrote: »
    Personally I would define the end of an individual's life when their brain is no longer capable of its higher functions, irregardless of the physical state of the rest of the body. So I would somewhat similarly define the starting point roughly around when the brain is developed enough for those higher functions to start. I'm not sure what stage of a fetuses development that would be.
    Two points:
    1. Neurulation (Formation of the neural tube) occurs almost simultaneously with gastrulation
    2. What about people in comas? Are they no longer alive too?


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    #896
    Irishchick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    To the people who think that the doctor is just aborting a "bunch of cells like a tumor"
    <Snip>


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    #897
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I have just reported your post Irishchick


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    #898
    KeithM89_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,806 ✭✭✭✭KeithM89_old


    Irishchick wrote: »
    To the people who think that the doctor is just aborting a "bunch of cells like a tumor"
    <Snip>

    Mod

    Please dont post those images again!!


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    #899
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    As far as I was aware gastrulation was the formation of a cellular structure from which organs, and thus organ system, begin to form. The gastrula in and off itself is not an organism, but a cellular structure.

    I'm happy to be corrected, I'm no biologist, but that's what I've been led to believe.
    You're a "cellular structure" in a certain manner of speaking. As for the exact meaning of an organism, even a single celled amoeba is an organism. An organism isn't defined by the number of cells it has.

    All that an organism is is a single individual life form. A gastrula certainly meets that definition as does a newborn baby.


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    #900
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Irishchick wrote: »
    Why did you delete the images? That is the raw truth of abortion.

    Are people so sheltered that they cant deal with truth now??

    Lovely stuff.

    You should go and show those images to some of the women who have to travel abroad to have a termination because their child will not live outside the womb. I'm sure they'll appreciate your "raw truth".


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    #901
    Irishchick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    KeithM89 wrote: »
    Mod

    Please dont post those images again!!

    Give a good reason why? Those pictures show the truth of abortion.

    People have this fairytale image of just removing a bunch of cells from a woman when it involves cutting up a foetus inside the womb and removing the pieces
    one by one.


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