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Abortion

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    #692
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    micropig wrote: »
    Adoption
    So if you're lucky enough that your parents don't resent you until after you're born, you survive and get raised by a family who will love and cherish you and if you're unlucky enough that your parents resent you from the minute your existence is noted, you just get killed.


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    #693
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So if you're lucky enough that your parents don't resent you until after you're born, you survive and get raised by a family who will love and cherish you and if you're unlucky enough that your parents resent you from the minute your existence is noted, you just get killed.

    What's the other option, let the child live with parents who do not want it and resent it? That doesn't sound like a great life for either the parents or the child


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    #694
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Your in the minority cos if we have a referendum here your yes vote will loose.

    I would not be so confident if I were you... but only time will tell.

    However from personal experience of seeing this debate show up in one form or another on the internet since I started using Usenet around 17 years ago and chat rooms and forums later on... I can tell you there has been a massive change in the dynamic of that debate.

    While originally the debates I read would have contained a few pro choicer arguing against a sea of opposition... much of it Biblical and Christian in tone and content... what I see now on general discussion forums like this one, politics.ie, City-Data-Forum and more is almost the exact opposite with a sea of pro-choicers swamping arguments at a vocal but relatively small minority like yourself.

    It would seem that those holding and supporting your position on such threads and forums now is not only outnumbered by the pro-choicers... but also appears to be outnumbered by the fence sitters who have also popped into the thread to drop a post or two.

    All of that is coupled with other social issues such as the massive amount of face and credibility being lost recently by those... such as the catholic church... who are often those who come to mind when thinking of people who stand in the opposition camp.

    Also none of this is being helped by the MASSIVELY poor standard of intellect and information on offer from the anti camp. I myself for example went up to actually talk to some of the anti abortion campaigners who hang around central bank with pictures of aborted fetuses one day.

    I kept asking them to tell me their arguments and side of things... without offering any counter arguments of my own... just asking them to tell me what their position was.... and quite literally the only response I could get out of any of them was "look at the pictures man" and when I asked further "Man have you not LOOKED at the pictures????".

    Comical given you play the same non sequitur picture card here yourself as if what it looks like has anything to do with it... which the wonderful marzipan response highlights. Though I also have seen some very life like mannequins in my time that its a clear tragedy have not been given human rights status based on their human like appearance too.

    Now while I would be cautious to extrapolate a real world prediction of a real world election based on the sea change I have seen in the tone and content of forum debates... it certainly would give me pause to take your own prediction that seriously at all and in fact were I compelled to put money on it I would be much more likely to think the safe money would be against you. Opinion is massively changing on the issue over the 17 years I have been following it and debating it, and not in your favor either.

    All of that is predicated of course on what the actual wording and form of the election, law changes and the like actually are though. None of us can make any safe predictions on what an election would come out as until we know EXACTLY what we would be voting on.


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    #695
    Noffles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    Pro Choice, it has nothing to do with any nosey cnut what a woman does when she is pregnant, fcuk off and take your interfering ways with you.

    Did I say, fcuk off... good.


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    #696
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Noffles wrote: »
    Pro Choice, it has nothing to do with any nosey cnut what a woman does when she is pregnant, fcuk off and take your interfering ways with you.

    Did I say, fcuk off... good.

    that was a píss poor post, especially at this stage of the thread


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    #697
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    micropig wrote: »
    What's the other option, let the child live with parents who do not want it and resent it? That doesn't sound like a great life for either the parents or the child
    Again, what if the parents only start to resent the child after its born? Imagine they have this romanticised idea of raising a child at first but they get fed up and resent the child at the age of six.

    Using your logic, the best solution would be to kill the child to save it from the pain of a life of feeling unwanted and resentful parents.


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    #698
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Noffles wrote: »
    Pro Choice, it has nothing to do with any nosey cnut what a woman does when she is pregnant, fcuk off and take your interfering ways with you. Did I say, fcuk off... good.

    Hell yeah! There's nothing quite as empowering as watching a new-born baby deal with withdrawal symptoms!


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    #699
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    I would not be so confident if I were you... but only time will tell.

    However from personal experience of seeing this debate show up in one form or another on the internet since I started using Usenet around 17 years ago and chat rooms and forums later on... I can tell you there has been a massive change in the dynamic of that debate.

    While originally the debates I read would have contained a few pro choicer arguing against a sea of opposition... much of it Biblical and Christian in tone and content... what I see now on general discussion forums like this one, politics.ie, City-Data-Forum and more is almost the exact opposite with a sea of pro-choicers swamping arguments at a vocal but relatively small minority like yourself.

    It would seem that those holding and supporting your position on such threads and forums now is not only outnumbered by the pro-choicers... but also appears to be outnumbered by the fence sitters who have also popped into the thread to drop a post or two.

    All of that is coupled with other social issues such as the massive amount of face and credibility being lost recently by those... such as the catholic church... who are often those who come to mind when thinking of people who stand in the opposition camp.

    Also none of this is being helped by the MASSIVELY poor standard of intellect and information on offer from the anti camp. I myself for example went up to actually talk to some of the anti abortion campaigners who hang around central bank with pictures of aborted fetuses one day.

    I kept asking them to tell me their arguments and side of things... without offering any counter arguments of my own... just asking them to tell me what their position was.... and quite literally the only response I could get out of any of them was "look at the pictures man" and when I asked further "Man have you not LOOKED at the pictures????".

    Comical given you play the same non sequitur picture card here yourself as if what it looks like has anything to do with it... which the wonderful marzipan response highlights. Though I also have seen some very life like mannequins in my time that its a clear tragedy have not been given human rights status based on their human like appearance too.

    Now while I would be cautious to extrapolate a real world prediction of a real world election based on the sea change I have seen in the tone and content of forum debates... it certainly would give me pause to take your own prediction that seriously at all and in fact were I compelled to put money on it I would be much more likely to think the safe money would be against you. Opinion is massively changing on the issue over the 17 years I have been following it and debating it, and not in your favor either.

    All of that is predicated of course on what the actual wording and form of the election, law changes and the like actually are though. None of us can make any safe predictions on what an election would come out as until we know EXACTLY what we would be voting on.
    I think most polls i have seen on here always come back close though with the No vote and the yes in medical circumstnaces winning out. also there is always the undecided ones too. anyway im certain that a referendum would come back no. But if it came back yes i would respect the law of the land even though id be unhappy, i certainly wouldnt go out intimidating women at clinics or anything. The pic i posted was a genuine 22 week old baby i merely trying to illustrate a point that abortions at 24 weeks would be wrong


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    #700
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Again, what if the parents only start to resent the child after its born? Imagine they have this romanticised idea of raising a child at first but they get fed up and resent the child at the age of six.

    Using your logic, the best solution would be to kill the child to save it from the pain of a life of feeling unwanted and resentful parents.

    You seem to have the other solution offered - Adoption?

    So better to let a child live with the pain of feeling unwanted and resentful parents....Why?


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    #701
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    The poic i posted was a genuine 22 week old baby i merely trying to illustrate a point that abortions at 24 weeks would be wrong

    Pictures are ultimately irrelevant. They provide no information that adds to the discussion, instead they play on heart-strings.


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    #702
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    anyway im certain that a referendum would come back no.

    Again impossible to say until we see what we are actually being asked to vote on, but you are free to imagine it any way you wish despite not even having that much to go on.

    I am not sure to what polls you are referring, but what I am saying is that even on threads like this one it appears you are in the minority.

    Perhaps someone with more time than I can confirm or debunk that impression by going over the thread and counting per user name the yes's the no's and the undecidededs who have posted in the thread but right now it is looking like you are almost the entire vocal minority on here with a couple of rare posts by others popping in in support.

    And that is generally the change I have noticed, slowly but surely, over the last 17 years since I discovered Usenet.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    The poic i posted was a genuine 22 week old baby i merely trying to illustrate a point that abortions at 24 weeks would be wrong

    I know what you were trying to illustrate. That is why I found the marzipan reply so apt. I was explained exactly why it is a poor attempt and is essentially an "argument from emotion" based fallacy played by those who appear not to have any actual arguments to make on the issue.

    Having made the time to really sit and listen to the "other side" as I did in Dublin... I was more than a little disappointed that the best thing they had to offer was to tell me to "look at the pictures man". All their combined intellect and a photo based argument from emotional fallacy was not just the best argument they could offer me... it was the ONLY argument they could offer me. This is not helping your cause and that is from someone like me who actively SEEKS OUT chances to hear the "other side" of every important issue. Imagine those who just make up their own mind and do not even try to listen?


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    #703
    Noffles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    davet82 wrote: »
    that was a píss poor post, especially at this stage of the thread

    Never realised it was being graded..


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    #704
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Pictures are ultimately irrelevant. They provide no information that adds to the discussion, instead they play on heart-strings.

    the same goes at a murder trail too then? ;)


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    #705
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    micropig wrote: »
    You seem to have the other solution offered - Adoption?

    So better to let a child live with the pain of feeling unwanted and resentful parents....Why?
    There's quite a big difference between a child being born and immediately being put up for adoption (Hence they never know their real parents) and a child being put up for adoption later in life (At say, six years of age).


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    #706
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Pictures are ultimately irrelevant. They provide no information that adds to the discussion, instead they play on heart-strings.
    im sorry but i really think that where a late abortion is concerned we should be playing on the heartstrings of ignorant girls who do not realise a baby at 22 weeks is actually a baby. the picture was real, if you find it hard to digest, if you even looked at it that is, thats up to you.
    come on i know your pro choice, but honestly 22 weeks? when a child can actually survive.
    i have alot more respect for the pro choicers on here who admit thats too late in the day


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    #707
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Noffles wrote: »
    Never realised it was being graded..

    You could get aborted for achieving low grades around here:pac:


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    #708
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Noffles wrote: »
    Never realised it was being graded..

    yes i give stars out for the really good ones ;)


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    #709
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Pictures are ultimately irrelevant. They provide no information that adds to the discussion, instead they play on heart-strings.

    the same goes at a murder trail too then? ;)


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    #710
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    im sorry but i really think that where a late abortion is concerned we should be playing on the heartstrings of ignorant girls who do not realise a baby at 22 weeks is actually a baby.
    Arguments should consist of reason, rationale and logic. Not emotions. Resorting to emotions often results in weakening your argument.
    the picture was real, if you find it hard to digest, if you even looked at it that is, thats up to you.
    I've seen many babies. I've digested them all quite easily.
    come on i know your pro choice, but honestly 22 weeks? when a child can actually survive.
    Once again. 24 weeks is the milestone of viability.

    And what does 22 weeks have to do with me?
    davet82 wrote: »
    the same goes at a murder trail too then? ;)
    Only photos of my puppy-eyes will be admissible at my trial.


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    #711
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    im sorry but i really think that where a late abortion is concerned we should be playing on the heartstrings of ignorant girls who do not realise a baby at 22 weeks is actually a baby. the picture was real, if you find it hard to digest, if you even looked at it that is, thats up to you.

    I'm not sure how many "ignorant girls" are taking part in the thread over whether abortion should be legal or not. It might help your case if you gave the rational argument for abortion being illegal, rather than trying to play on the heartstrings of people who aren't even here.


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    #712
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    davet82 wrote: »
    the same goes at a murder trail too then? ;)
    also i disagree, if im provided with a pic of a 22 week old premature baby, i can see hmm look here this is a fully formed baby .
    seems to be alot of people dont realise how developed a child is at that stage. maybe because they dont want to know cos its an uncomfortable truth


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    #713
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Knasher wrote: »
    I'm not sure how many "ignorant girls" are taking part in the thread over whether abortion should be legal or not....

    At least one. Sad to say.


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    #714
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Arguments should consist of reason, rationale and logic. Not emotions. Resorting to emotions often results in weakening your argument.I've seen many babies. I've digested them all quite easily.
    Once again. 24 weeks is the milestone of viability.

    And what does 22 weeks have to do with me?


    Only photos of my puppy-eyes will be admissible at my trial.

    22 weeks clearly nothing to do with you agreed. your happy at the 24 week mark. grand thanx for clearing that up.


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    #715
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Only photos of my puppy-eyes will be admissible at my trial.

    damn the puppys, you most certainly will get off now :pac:


    seriously though pictures are crediable evidence imo to pro life as it shows what exactly it is that you've terminated/aborted/killed/murdered


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    #716
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    22 weeks clearly nothing to do with you agreed. your happy at the 24 week mark. grand thanx for clearing that up.

    Didn't I explicitly deny your claims that I'm happy at the 24 week mark?

    I'm simply stating that fetal viability is considered to be at the 24 week mark.
    davet82 wrote: »
    seriously though pictures are crediable evidence imo to pro life as it shows what exactly it is that you've terminated/aborted/killed/murdered
    But it shouldn't matter what you terminated. It should only matter if it had the right to life.


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    #717
    cbyrd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭cbyrd


    Just curious as to what the law says on women who are pregnant and need a treatment that will ultimately end the pregnancy . . ? At any weeks?


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    #718
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    seems to be alot of people dont realise how developed a child is at that stage.

    True. The biology of the subject, irrespective of ones political views on it, are poorly understood. Someone mentioned a fetal development exhibit in the "Bodies" exhibition which sounded quite detailed and informative. If only more people saw and learned stuff like that.

    However what does NOT help the issue is quotes off Anti Abortion Propoganda websites... such as some of those you have provided here... which use clever wording to make the "development" sound much more progressed and advanced than it actually is.

    Such people are actually attempting to benefit and use the ignorance of others to sway their political motives and I am happy to highlight it when I see it because it shows what is ultimately true... that people like that are playing on peoples ignorance and being liberal with the truth... while people on the other side... such as in my first post on this thread... actually quote, cite and evidence the truth to help erode the ignorance.

    And in the long run when choosing between a group who use your ignorance against you and a group who work hard to dispel that ignorance so you can make your own informed choices... I think I know which group people will gravitate to. Hint: It is not the first one.


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    #719
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    cbyrd wrote: »
    Just curious as to what the law says on women who are pregnant and need a treatment that will ultimately end the pregnancy . . ? At any weeks?
    yes im curious about this too. say a woman is to have cancer treatment and is pregnant is she allowed have the treatment etc?


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    #720
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    cbyrd wrote: »
    Just curious as to what the law says on women who are pregnant and need a treatment that will ultimately end the pregnancy . . ? At any weeks?

    Technically in theory they are allowed to have the treatment here.

    However it isn't really properly dealt with in legislation so said treatment isn't actually provided here, at least not officially.

    AFAIK that's the current state affairs here. It's all a bit up in the air, and the governments for a log time now haven't really wanted to deal with it.


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    #721
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    davet82 wrote: »
    Out of curisousity, anybody know anyone, who had a baby and a couple of weeks later said, 'ya know what i'm fcukin snappin i didnt have that abortion when i had the chance' ?


    i doubt it

    I have, they were in a very bad situation and had no family support were suffering from depression, the father of the child was an abusive arsehole who had to be removed from hospital when he showed up by security after he found out were she had the baby. She wanted to put the child up for adoption but her parents put a lot of pressure on her not to give away thier grandchild but they weren't willing to support her and the baby.

    End the end the child was placed in foster care after she tried to kill herself, she wanted the child with a foster family but her parents and sister wrangled thier way into having the baby and in the end she left the country and left them all behind.


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