Abortion

twinQuins

prinz wrote: »

But I thought you were pro-choice Choices for some, not for others.

I don't like potatoes so obviously I'm going to lobby for a law to ban eating spuds. Obviously. Because it's impossible to disagree with something while also not stopping people from doing it, apparently.

smash

prinz wrote: »

But I thought you were pro-choice

I'm pro-life up to the point where the health of mother is at serious risk.. then I'd view it as a lesser of two evils.

Ok, now I see where you're arguments are coming from. I am pro choice, but there has to be a limit to the choice in the same way there is a limit on the term at which you can terminate.

Accidental pregnancy/rape. Fine get an abortion, it's not what you wanted anyway.

If you set out to have a baby and are successful in getting pregnant then all well and good.

• If you find out the baby has serious defects then termination should be allowed as it's not life for the child or parent.

• If you find out the baby is a girl but you wanted a boy then you should have done genetic engineering or something. It's their choice to terminate but I really don't agree with it. And neither does the law so it doesn't matter. Really there's no point in you arguing this point as it's a legal standing, it brings nothing to the conversation.

Seachmall

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

21 weeks has been recorded. so your happy to abort up to 24 weeks. even though babies survive from 21 weeks?

Some babies can survive from 21 weeks.

24 weeks is when, on average, it's viable.


And I never said anything about abortion, I haven't decided when I think it should be allowed up to. I'm thinking 38 weeks. Hows that for you?

LorraineMcFly

candy-gal1 wrote: »

well sometimes yeah there will be changes like that occuring with some foetuses, imho yes i would be fine with that up to the 24week mark, but tbh if someone truly wants an abortion they will/should do it as soon as possable, 24weeks is just the deadline imho

have you ever been 5 months pregnant? not meaning to be rude genuine question. just the babys fully formed moving and kicking every day. it can survive if born. and you really think its ok to have an abortion? thats madness

LorraineMcFly

Seachmall wrote: »

Some babies can survive from 21 weeks.

24 weeks is when, on average, it's viable.


And I never said anything about abortion, I haven't decided when I think it should be allowed up to. I'm thinking 38 weeks. Hows that for you?

so your pro choice but you have no opinion on when the cut off point should be?

Seachmall

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

it can survive if born

Most likely it can't.

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

so your pro choice but you have no opinion on when the cut off point should be?

I know in my head when I think it should be, but I don't know when, or even if, that translates to a specific week or term or whatever.

nozzferrahhtoo

candy-gal1 wrote: »

tbh if someone truly wants an abortion they will/should do it as soon as possable, 24weeks is just the deadline imho

I can support that assumption with a citation if you like.

The link above shows that 61.3% of abortions happen before 9 weeks. Around 88% happen before 12 weeks. While 58% of those that had it later than 12 weeks said they regretted not having it sooner.

So while you have a personal cut off of 24 weeks it seems that choice based abortion with a cut off of as low as 12 weeks would be satisfactory to nearly 95% of women who wish to avail of the procedure. Certainly 16 weeks would be more than enough.

So while for a variety of arguments of my own I actually find I am ok with the 24 week cut off of many US States, I think if I saw choice based abortion come to Ireland I would personally like to see something in the 12 to 20 week range being discussed with 16 for me being something of a middle ground.

davet82

Seachmall wrote: »

I haven't decided when I think it should be allowed up to. I'm thinking 38 weeks. Hows that for you?

why not just wait in the labour room with an axe, sure the baby is only a few minutes old

Ectoplasm

prinz wrote: »

I just don't understand why someone body would scoff at somebody saying abortion is ok in cases of rape, but not in consensual sex cases... and then continue on to themselves say abortion is ok in this case, but should be illegal in that...

I think the issue is that for many who label themselves as 'pro-life' the premise is that the life of the foetus is sacrosanct. If this is the case, the 'except if it is rape' clause does seem odd.

With regards to being pro-choice yet not in favour of allowing it on the principles of gender, hair colour, eye colour etc. there IS a distinct difference. In the case of seeking abortion it is pregnancy (and everything that entails) that the woman wishes to avoid/end. In the case of someone seeking abortion to have a 'designer baby', for want of a better term, it is not pregnancy that the mother wants to end...they are more than willing to be pregnant and become a parent. It is a different premise altogether.

Seachmall

davet82 wrote: »

why not just wait in the labour room with an axe, sure the baby is only a few minutes old

I tried that before, the nurses were very hostile over the whole thing.

LorraineMcFly

Seachmall wrote: »

Most likely it can't.I know in my head when I think it should be, but I don't know when, or even if, that translates to a specific week or term or whatever.

heres a pic of a 22 week old premature baby, just to put a human face on it. and abortion ok at this stage by alot of you guys on here? And you think im the crazy one.
baby 22 weeks.jpg

Lockstep

I'm a bit dubious about abortion.

I'm all for killing babies.
But women making decisions is against my beliefs.

candy-gal1

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

have you ever been 5 months pregnant? not meaning to be rude genuine question. just the babys fully formed moving and kicking every day. it can survive if born. and you really think its ok to have an abortion? thats madness

Well thats why abortion is a big thing to do and shouldnt be just done lightly aka used as some form of contraception, now thats madness imho.
Tbh, no i have never been pregnant , and yes i can see how a woman could start to feel close/maternal after feeling the kicking etc going on, but even without that, if your pregnant you know the foetus is inside you, you may have had a scan even who knows but i still wouldnt like to think that id be guilted into keeping it because of this.

I mean if it changes your mind honestly, and you definitly want it then by all means go through with the pregnancy, but other than that your life is your own, you only get one, why fcuk it up or risk fcuking it up for something you dont really want, but thats just me of course.

Again as i said, this is the reason why its better to have an abortion if you want it as soon as possable and not just wait till its nearing the 24 week mark.

Seachmall

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

heres a pic of a 22 week old premature baby, just to put a human face on it. and abortion ok at this stage by alot of you guys on here? And you think im the crazy one.
baby 22 weeks.jpg

heres a pic of a 22 week old marizpan baby, just to put a human face on it. and eating ok at this stage by alot of you guys on here? And you think im the crazy one.

Scrumptious.

prinz

I think the last few posts have shown how dividing the issue into pro-choice, and pro-life groups isn't that productive. One both sides there wil be varying positions, some pro-choice people will agree with abortion in certain cases, while other pro-choicers will disagree with abortion in other cases. Similarly some pro-lifers will disagree with abortion in all cases, and others will agree with abortion in some cases.

It's such a huge issue with countless numbers of positions. There is no esy answer. If you ban all abortions some will be happy some unhappy. If you allow all abortions, some will be happy, some unhappy. If you allow some but ban others, some will be happy, some won't. I don't envy anyone trying to frame legislation on abortion... and what I certainly don't want is a hatchet-job Private Members Bill. Honestly I don't see how it's all going to pan out, without referenda between now and 2112 on every single what if, but, except etc.

All that we can hope for is that the current hypothetical law of the land, is turned into the current actual law of the land. After that I just don't know.

partyatmygaff

candy-gal1 wrote: »

I would be voting yes to bringing abortion over here if/when there is a referendum, its quite simple imho, a foetus is not a baby/human life up to 24weeks therefore if a woman wants an abortion up to that time then she should be able to regardless of the circumstance of the conception as long as it is not after the 24 week mark.

What a groundbreaking discovery.

http://dev.biologists.org/site/misc/submissions.xhtml

I can't wait to read your evidence.

LorraineMcFly

candy-gal1 wrote: »

Well thats why abortion is a big thing to do and shouldnt be just done lightly aka used as some form of contraception, now thats madness imho.
Tbh, no i have never been pregnant , and yes i can see how a woman could start to feel close/maternal after feeling the kicking etc going on, but even without that, if your pregnant you know the foetus is inside you, you may have had a scan even who knows but i still wouldnt like to think that id be guilted into keeping it because of this.

I mean if it changes your mind honestly, and you definitly want it then by all means go through with the pregnancy, but other than that your life is your own, you only get one, why fcuk it up or risk fcuking it up for something you dont really want, but thats just me of course.

Again as i said, this is the reason why its better to have an abortion if you want it as soon as possable and not just wait till its nearing the 24 week mark.

i just think ur assuming a 5 month old baby is a clump of cells. its not its fully formed and can survive most likely outside the womb. abortions at 24 weeks, i think even the most hardened pro lifer would agree thats just wrong

micropig

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

heres a pic of a 22 week old premature baby, just to put a human face on it. and abortion ok at this stage by alot of you guys on here? And you think im the crazy one.
baby 22 weeks.jpg

Yes but if it was going to be aborted, It was because it was not wanted.


Is it better to bring an unwanted child in to the world, where the parents may resent it being born

or get rid of it as it's unwanted?


What is the positives of bringing an unwanted child in to the world? Just because it is allowed to be born, doesn't mean it will have a good life...it could be abused or anything by the parents

partyatmygaff

micropig wrote: »

Yes but if it was going to be aborted, It was because it was not wanted.

Is it better to bring an unwanted child in to the world, where the parents may resent it being born

or get rid of it as it's unwanted?

What is the positives of bringing an unwanted child in to the world? Just because it is allowed to be born, doesn't mean it will have a good life...it could be abused or anything by the parents

What if a parent decides that they don't really want their child after the child is a year old? Should they just be allowed to kill their child to save them from feeling unwanted and resented?

LorraineMcFly

micropig wrote: »

Yes but if it was going to be aborted, It was because it was not wanted.


Is it better to bring an unwanted child in to the world, where the parents may resent it being born

or get rid of it as it's unwanted?


What is the positives of bringing an unwanted child in to the world? Just because it is allowed to be born, doesn't mean it will have a good life...it could be abused or anything by the parents

im in favour of adoption only for unwanted pregnancies.

davet82

micropig wrote: »

Yes but if it was going to be aborted, It was because it was not wanted.


Is it better to bring an unwanted child in to the world, where the parents may resent it being born

or get rid of it as it's unwanted?


What is the positives of bringing an unwanted child in to the world? Just because it is allowed to be born, doesn't mean it will have a good life...it could be abused or anything by the parents

i take your points but in my experince... (please feel free to post your own anyone)

i know people who have terminated a childs life, i know it does not sit easy with them even years later and the people i know who did decide to go ahead with a unplanned or unwanted pregnacy never for a second regret it

if you dont want the baby that much then give it away, it wont bother you because you dont want it... right?

prinz

smash wrote: »

Ok, now I see where you're arguments are coming from. I am pro choice, but there has to be a limit to the choice in the same way there is a limit on the term at which you can terminate.
....Really there's no point in you arguing this point as it's a legal standing, it brings nothing to the conversation.

You answered your own query. What it brings to the discussion is that the vast majority on both sides want to see limits somewhere. So engaging in nonsense like... 'if you don't want an abortion, don't get one' is just redundant childish nonsense if you see what I mean. I could aim that at you and say 'if you don't want an abortion on the grounds of gender, don't get one'. Does it address anything really? No.

candy-gal1

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What a groundbreaking discovery.

http://dev.biologists.org/site/misc/submissions.xhtml

I can't wait to read your evidence.

Well if most, i said most, foetuses dont survive outside the womb before this point then it would seem that in the majority of cases its not a human being/baby until then.

micropig

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What if a parent decides that they don't really want their child after the child is a year old? Should they just be allowed to kill their child to save them from feeling unwanted and resented?

Adoption

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

im in favour of adoption only for unwanted pregnancies.

Ok

partyatmygaff

candy-gal1 wrote: »

Well if most, i said most, foetuses dont survive outside the womb before this point then it would seem that in the majority of cases its not a human being/baby until then.

The fact that a foetus needs its mother to survive for the first few weeks of its life does not make it any less alive.

A comatose child that relies on others to sustain their life is no less human or alive than a child capable of sustaining their own life. Or do you disagree?

cbyrd

Given that i have 4 healthy children, and was always pro life.. on my last pregnancy i had reason to change my mind..
I was in the high risk bracket being over 35.. so with all the risks that goes along with that myself and my husband had to sit down and have a discussion about what to do if everything was not ok..
A life of sacrifice for not only us but our other 3 children.. would we be prepared for it? probably not .. would we terminate for mental disability? probably..
I never thought i would consider an abortion but when your back is against the wall and it's your life it's going to affect then the decision is completely an emotional one.
NO-one has the right to say myself or my husband would be wrong to choose to terminate a pregnancy for the benefit of all our family.. just as i don't have the right to say to another person that it's not ok for them to choose.

Thankfully everything was ok for us and we have 4 perfectly healthy kids..

Not only should it be the woman's choice but if the system is put together properly (in Ireland?? :rolleyes:) then counselling would have to be compulsory before and after . .

micropig

davet82 wrote: »

i take your points but in my experince... (please feel free to post your own anyone)

i know people who have terminated a childs life, i know it does not sit easy with them even years later and the people i know who did decide to go ahead with a unplanned or unwanted pregnacy never for a second regret it

if you dont want the baby that much then give it away, it wont bother you because you dont want it... right?

Did they have to terminate a second one, or did they learn from their first experience and use contraception, to prevent putting themselves in that position a second time?

Harsh way to learn a lesson, but they should have listened up in sex. ed.

candy-gal1

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The fact that a foetus needs its mother to survive for the first few weeks of its life does not make it any less living.

A comatose child that relies on others to sustain them is no less human than one capable of sustaining their own life. Or do you disagree?

i can see your point there tbh, well the comatose child is relying on people, different people i expect, not just their mother to look after them, the foetus is just relying on the mothers womb to carry it on to 24weeks and then to full term where it will be a child/baby.
its truly a judgement call of the person carrying it tbh, if their going to think along those lines.

LorraineMcFly

cbyrd wrote: »

Given that i have 4 healthy children, and was always pro life.. on my last pregnancy i had reason to change my mind..
I was in the high risk bracket being over 35.. so with all the risks that goes along with that myself and my husband had to sit down and have a discussion about what to do if everything was not ok..
A life of sacrifice for not only us but our other 3 children.. would we be prepared for it? probably not .. would we terminate for mental disability? probably..
I never thought i would consider an abortion but when your back is against the wall and it's your life it's going to affect then the decision is completely an emotional one.
NO-one has the right to say myself or my husband would be wrong to choose to terminate a pregnancy for the benefit of all our family.. just as i don't have the right to say to another person that it's not ok for them to choose.

Thankfully everything was ok for us and we have 4 perfectly healthy kids..

Not only should it be the woman's choice but if the system is put together properly (in Ireland?? :rolleyes:) then counselling would have to be compulsory before and after . .

Your very brave coming on here with your story, even though im anti abortion i respect your story and the hard choice you were faced with. My opinion is mine, but if any of my previous posts were hurtful to you i apologise. im delighted it worked out ok for you in the end.

davet82

micropig wrote: »

Did they have to terminate a second one, or did they learn from their first experience and use contraception, to prevent putting themselves in that position a second time?

Harsh way to learn a lesson, but they should have listened up in sex. ed.

believe it or not i know a two people, that have terminated and decided it was a big mistake and went out and got pregnant straight after it... the mind boggles sometimes

i totally agree with the sex ed bit but they're not all as clever as you and i