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Abortion

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Comments

  • #482
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    I think we actually do need a poll on this.


  • #483
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    By 8 weeks? Show me!
    By this age the neuro-anatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks. The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the hurt.
    Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.
    Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.
    A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus. Volman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234

    www.abortionfacts.com/fetal_development/fetal_pain.aspCached - Similar

    This is just a cut and paste anti-abortion screed from the 80's; neonatal understanding has moved on a great deal since then. I'm not a biologist, but from anything I've read over the years the absence of a developed cerebral cortex and a primary sensory cortex cast serious doubts on fetal pain.


  • #484
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Is that supposed to be a rebuttal?

    My word: 'if you want an abortion move country'. And I'm done with this conversation before it veers into the hysterical.


  • #485
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    there will never be a free for all abortion in ireland, where anybody can avail of it. If you want abortion move country. Wont be happening here.

    Will you stop living in the past ffs. Move on with the world.


  • #486
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    I think we actually do need a poll on this.
    No look Im only voicing my opinion. If you look at my point of view I genuinely see an unborn baby as a human being with rights. I cant be shaken on my set of beliefs. Also im non religious. I really believe there is too much medical eveidance to suggest the baby feels pain early on and then also even without the pain factor i see the unborn child as sacred anyway and as having a right to life.
    Secondly I understand others views that an unborn baby has no rights and feels no pain, if you really believe that with no grey areas then i see your stand point too. I just dont agree with you and hope and believe we will never have abortion in this country as a normal occurence.
    If a mothers life is properly at risk (ie she will die im not talking mental anguish crap) then i agree with abortion. But it must be an extreme case. Or if the baby is incapable of surviving outside the womb then yes of course i agree with it. However mistakes can happen. My aunty was told her child would never survive once born due to heart abnormalities. She had a little girl who is now 4 and is a medical miracle doing well and starting school this year.


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  • #487
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    Will you stop living in the past ffs. Move on with the world.
    so do you think ireland is living in the past? if the vote came and it came back No, would you think everyone here is mad and living in the fifties? why is your way the only right way?


  • #488
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    I genuinely see an unborn baby as a human being with rights

    ...

    If a mothers life is properly at risk (ie she will die im not talking mental anguish crap) then i agree with abortion.

    On what grounds do you decide the mother's life to be of greater value to the unborn child's?

    Would you feel comfortable deciding to kill one person over another in any other situations?


  • #489
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Also im non religious. I really believe there is too much medical eveidance to suggest the baby feels pain early on and then also even without the pain factor i see the unborn child as sacred anyway and as having a right to life.

    ok.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    why is your way the only right way?
    That's rich coming from you after the opinions you're pushing down people's throats.


  • #490
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    smash wrote: »
    Will you stop living in the past ffs. Move on with the world.

    The future is bright. :)


  • #491
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    why is your way the only right way?

    Because his way is the only way that allows people to decide the right way for themselves?


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  • #492
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    smash wrote: »
    Will you stop living in the past ffs. Move on with the world.
    smash wrote: »
    That's rich coming from you after the opinions you're pushing down people's throats.

    Trying to compute... but having difficulty.


  • #493
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    ok.
    ha so you believe now im a religious nut cos i said sacred.? why is word sacred religious to you? im a non practicing catholic, my child is not christened nor will my baby be. I detest what the church stands for. But I have a spiritual side and nothing wrong with that, insofar as I believe life is sacred.


  • #494
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Because his way is the only way that allows people to decide the right way for themselves?
    so why dont we legalise heroin too and let people decide if they want it


  • #495
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    why is word sacred religious to you?

    Because "Sacred" is a religious word?
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    so why dont we legalise heroin too and let people decide if they want it
    That's actually a proven way to reduce the use and risks of heroin.

    But that's for a different discussion.


  • #496
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Because "Sacred" is a religious word?
    Its used in religion certainly thats true. But does that mean non religious people cant use the word! . your argument now is resembling nit picking


  • #497
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    The answer is never black and white.I think it should be available for women that want it though.

    My own personal view on abortion has changed down the years I guess: maybe as a result of having kids or just being older. I used to vehemently pro-abortion in that slightly cringy way but now I don't know whether I could agree to a healthy child of mine being aborted unless there was an obvious reason: severe disability, rape, mental health of the mother etc.

    Thank god I've never been in the situation where a woman wanted to abort my child: must be a horrible situation.

    That said, that's a personal view and I wouldn't impose it on others so I'm pro-choice although I think there should be fairly strict time limits and perhaps a limit on the amount of abortions one woman can have.


  • #498
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    I think we actually do need a poll on this.
    Atari's for some, miniture Jaguars for others?


  • #499
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    It is worth noting how carefully worded some of the blurb on the anti choice sites are. Take the below post about whether a fetus can feel "pain" or not and really unpack what is being said / claimed in that posts citations:
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Weeks 10 and 11: The baby can "breathe" amniotic fluid and urinate. Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning. The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.

    First thing we notice is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with pain, pain transmission, pain processing or pain experience. Nothing at all. All it does it claims certain other abilities are present and so are certain structures. This is just filler therefore. Even better it just says things are "functioning" but not to what degree of completeness. The word "functioning" can hide much behind it. A car with no engine, to use an analogy, can be "functioning" in that it has wheels and it can move.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus.

    This is where the clever wording comes in. Nothing here says the fetus DOES feel pain. It just says the parts required to do so are formed. Yet the anti choice advocate can read this superficially and just take it to mean the fetus actually does feel pain.

    I could give you a stack of parts that make up a car too, it does not mean I have given you a car, just a pile of useless metal that will not get you anywhere. Simply saying to you "All the parts necessary to have a working car are present" does not indicate a working car actually IS present. It is word play.

    The question is whether the fetus actually experiences pain. Simply showing that some of the pre-requisite structures for doing so are present is not answering that question. It is avoiding it. But with a bit of clever wording you can easily get anti choice advocates parroting the claim on forums anyway because it sounds like it is answering the question.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.

    Again nothing at all to do with pain. This is just more filler.

    Now instead of quoting sites specifically designed to perpetuate anti abortion propaganda, let us actually cite scientific papers on the subject shall we?
    Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.
    "A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence" - Susan J. Lee, JD; Henry J. Peter Ralston, MD; Eleanor A. Drey, MD, EdM; John Colin Partridge, MD, MPH; Mark A. Rosen, MD
    The physical system for nociception is present and functional by 26 weeks and it seems likely that the fetus is capable of feeling pain from this stage.
    "Fetal pain: implications for research and practice" - Vivette Glover Reader, Nicholas M. Fisk Professor
    cortical processing of pain theoretically becomes possible after development of the thalamo-cortical connections in the 26th week of gestation
    Sampsa Vanhataloa, Onno van Nieuwenhuizenc. Brain and Development volume 22.
    With the relevant conceptual framework in place, we elucidate the problem of determining when, in its development, a human becomes capable of feeling pain. We then examine the available data showing how, on balance, it tends more to support than undermine the claim that fetuses of around 28 to 30 weeks' gestation are capable of feeling pain.
    "A Pain in the Fetus: Toward Ending Confusion about Fetal Pain" David Benatar, Michael Benatar
    The accepted hypothesis of the means by which pain is perceived states that it requires certain physical structures and operations. These are not formed in fetuses until 30 weeks or more. The consensus of the scientific community at this time is that only fetuses of this age or older are capable of perceiving pain.
    Wikipedia article on Neonatal perception citing Lee SJ, Ralston HJ, Drey EA, Partridge JC, Rosen MA (2005). "Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence". JAMA 294 (8): 947–54. doi:10.1001/jama.294.8.947. PMID 16118385.
    While the fetal nervous system is able to react through protective reflexes to potentially harmful stimuli, there is no accurate evidence concerning pain sensations in this early period. Cortical processes occur only after thalamocortical connections and pathways have been completed at the 26th gestational week.
    Fetal pain. Rokyta R. Source Department of Normal, Pathological and Clinical Physiology, 3rd Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic.

    The list above seems to target the area of 26 weeks and Third Trimester. Some research I have read pushes the border back as far as 20 weeks but most of that is talking about reaction to pain not experiencing and feeling pain. There is a massive difference here as much of the nervous system can react in the total absence of subjective experience. Just tap an unconscious persons knee with a hammer sometime if you doubt that.

    So if someone is claiming that at 9 to 10 weeks pain is being experienced I would love to know what evidence they are basing this on or is it all just cleverly worded blurb on anti abortion propaganda sites and blogs?


  • #500
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Its used in religion certainly thats true. But does that mean non religious people cant use the word! . your argument now is resembling nit picking

    I never said they couldn't use the word, but you asked why "Sacred" meant "Religious" to him. Given the word is explicitly a religious word then that's your answer.


  • #501
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    ha so you believe now im a religious nut cos i said sacred.? why is word sacred religious to you? im a non practicing catholic, my child is not christened nor will my baby be. I detest what the church stands for. But I have a spiritual side and nothing wrong with that, insofar as I believe life is sacred.

    Here you go:

    sa·cred   [sey-krid]
    adjective
    1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
    2. entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
    3. pertaining to or connected with religion ( opposed to secular or profane): sacred music; sacred books.
    4. reverently dedicated to some person, purpose, or object: a morning hour sacred to study.
    5. regarded with reverence: the sacred memory of a dead hero.


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  • #502
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I never said they couldn't use the word, but you asked why "Sacred" meant "Religious" to him. Given the word is explicitly a religious word then that's your answer.
    Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.


  • #503
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.

    No. You asked a question. You got an answer. Simple as.


  • #504
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.

    It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.


  • #505
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    It is worth noting how carefully worded some of the blurb on the anti choice sites are. Take the below post about whether a fetus can feel "pain" or not and really unpack what is being said / claimed in that posts citations:



    First thing we notice is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with pain, pain transmission, pain processing or pain experience. Nothing at all. All it does it claims certain other abilities are present and so are certain structures. This is just filler therefore. Even better it just says things are "functioning" but not to what degree of completeness. The word "functioning" can hide much behind it. A car with no engine, to use an analogy, can be "functioning" in that it has wheels and it can move.



    This is where the clever wording comes in. Nothing here says the fetus DOES feel pain. It just says the parts required to do so are formed. Yet the anti choice advocate can read this superficially and just take it to mean the fetus actually does feel pain.

    I could give you a stack of parts that make up a car too, it does not mean I have given you a car, just a pile of useless metal that will not get you anywhere. Simply saying to you "All the parts necessary to have a working car are present" does not indicate a working car actually IS present. It is word play.

    The question is whether the fetus actually experiences pain. Simply showing that some of the pre-requisite structures for doing so are present is not answering that question. It is avoiding it. But with a bit of clever wording you can easily get anti choice advocates parroting the claim on forums anyway because it sounds like it is answering the question.



    Again nothing at all to do with pain. This is just more filler.

    Now instead of quoting sites specifically designed to perpetuate anti abortion propaganda, let us actually cite scientific papers on the subject shall we?


    "A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence" - Susan J. Lee, JD; Henry J. Peter Ralston, MD; Eleanor A. Drey, MD, EdM; John Colin Partridge, MD, MPH; Mark A. Rosen, MD

    "Fetal pain: implications for research and practice" - Vivette Glover Reader, Nicholas M. Fisk Professor

    Sampsa Vanhataloa, Onno van Nieuwenhuizenc. Brain and Development volume 22.

    "A Pain in the Fetus: Toward Ending Confusion about Fetal Pain" David Benatar, Michael Benatar

    Wikipedia article on Neonatal perception citing Lee SJ, Ralston HJ, Drey EA, Partridge JC, Rosen MA (2005). "Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence". JAMA 294 (8): 947–54. doi:10.1001/jama.294.8.947. PMID 16118385.

    Fetal pain. Rokyta R. Source Department of Normal, Pathological and Clinical Physiology, 3rd Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic.

    The list above seems to target the area of 26 weeks and Third Trimester. Some research I have read pushes the border back as far as 20 weeks but most of that is talking about reaction to pain not experiencing and feeling pain. There is a massive difference here as much of the nervous system can react in the total absence of subjective experience. Just tap an unconscious persons knee with a hammer sometime if you doubt that.

    So if someone is claiming that at 9 to 10 weeks pain is being experienced I would love to know what evidence they are basing this on or is it all just cleverly worded blurb on anti abortion propaganda sites and blogs?
    A premature baby can survive outside the womb at 22 weeks, the earliest one recorded as having survived is 21 weeks. so are you saying they also would feel no pain outside the womb at this age? when does pain kick in according to you 26 weeks? or do you admit you just dont have the answer? Because there is no definitive answer.
    Its the grey area the doubt about pain that bothers me. I would never be willing to risk it.


  • #506
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    smash wrote: »
    It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.
    oh lord!


  • #507
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.
    no its pro abortion, pro choice is a diluted word used to make you feel better about the abortion.


  • #508
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,983 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    smash wrote: »
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.

    It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.

    Its difficult to argue against choice and personal freedom, so its easier to misrepresent people who disagree with you as extremists as well...


  • #509
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Pro-choice. Just not the choice to have a differing opinion obviously.


  • #510
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    no its pro abortion, pro choice is a diluted word used to make you feel better about the abortion.

    Pro-life is a term used to imply the opponent is Anti-life. This is called political framing.

    Pro-choice is a term used to imply the opponent is Anti-choice. This is relatively sincere.


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  • #511
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    A premature baby can survive outside the womb at 22 weeks, the earliest one recorded as having survived is 21 weeks. so are you saying they also would feel no pain outside the womb at this age?

    Yes. Surviving and feeling pain are not synonymous. At all. Just because using modern technology we can help the fetus to survive from every earlier times outside the womb this does not allow us to make any leaps to suggesting they experiencing anything in the way of pain at that stage.

    As I said it is just clever word play by the propaganda that you have been reading. They never actually say in your links that the fetus feels pain. They just list things that are present (so what) and "functioning" (but not to what degree). It is what they do not say, rather than what they do, that shows just how dishonest the selective text actually is. You are being played by people who know the science better than you do and are systematically wording that science to garner maximum effect from you emotionally.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    when does pain kick in according to you 26 weeks? or do you admit you just dont have the answer? Because there is no definitive answer. Its the grey area the doubt about pain that bothers me. I would never be willing to risk it.

    It is indeed a grey area as to when exactly the ability to experience pain DOES start. What is less of a grey area is defining times when the ability is not there. What you are doing is what I would call overextending the doubt. As I see it at 9 to 12 weeks... which is the time period you indicated in the posts I replied to... there simply is no risk of note at all.

    There is simply no reason on offer to my knowledge to think there is ANY chance that a fetus at that age feels pain. None. Throwing out phrases like "risk" and "grey area" and "doubt" does not magically mean there is any such thing at that age.

    I am more than willing to entertain good arguments against abortion if they are made, but when false facts are invented... clever wording used to make something sound other than how it is... or arguments from doubt and emotion are made... or using terms like "pro abortion" to make it look like people actually want abortions rather than just want people to have the choice.... these just fail to wash with me. Plus they show just how weak the anti side must actually be to have to resort to that.


This discussion has been closed.
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