Abortion

bronte · 22-04-2012 12:30AM

prinz wrote: »

Absolute bullsh*t. Is having people (i.e. ME) send you links on support groups and counselling for post-abortion women what you call being abused? You go to the Christian forum and then cry foul because people gave you their Christian positions.

Step out of yourself and consider.

prinz · 22-04-2012 12:30AM

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

Can I ask a serious question to the "pro-lifers" (hate that word but everyone knows what I mean)
If you don't think abortion should be legalised in Ireland and your reason for this is the rights of the unborn child, then by the same token do you think Irish women should be prevented from leaving the country to obtain abortions elsewhere - by default the child has those same rights, no matter where the abortion occurs..

It doesn't follow. You might as well say because you are against child abuse, other should be stopped going abroad in case they abuse kids in Thailand or something. I can't stop people going abroad to engage in any number of things that I don't think they should be legally able to do here.

hattoncracker · 22-04-2012 12:31AM

prinz wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

I know you weren't trying to offend me. There's a Christian thread on abortion and I've been abused so much on there and had babies in dumpsters posted at me.. Youre pretty accepting in comparison to that!!

Absolute bullsh*t. Is having people (i.e. ME) send you links on support groups and counselling for post-abortion women what you call being abused? You go to the Christian forum and then cry foul because people gave you their Christian positions.

Thank you for your support, and I do remember you but I was talkin about a different Christian thread on a different website, should have made that clearer.

Although it did happen on boards, it's Not the site I was referring to.

Des Carter · 22-04-2012 12:41AM

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

Can I ask a serious question to the "pro-lifers" (hate that word but everyone knows what I mean)

If you don't think abortion should be legalised in Ireland and your reason for this is the rights of the unborn child, then by the same token do you think Irish women should be prevented from leaving the country to obtain abortions elsewhere - by default the child has those same rights, no matter where the abortion occurs.

Genuine question - everyones entitled to an opinion - I do understand why people are against it. It's not a nice thing to want to do to yourself.

I believe that abortions are wrong and should be prevented in the majority of cases. However There is a serious problem with unwanted pregnancy and to just ban women from leaving the country would not be a viable option. there would need to be a lot of resources support and help etc put in place before that can even be considered at all. Society would also have to change and the stigma associated with unplanned pregnancy would need to be removed. Condemming people and looking down on them never works the root problems need to be tackled first to get any real results.

Edit: Also I cant see how you could stop a woman going abroad. How would you know it is for abortion?

H2UMrsRobinson · 22-04-2012 12:43AM

prinz wrote: »

It doesn't follow. You might as well say because you are against child abuse, other should be stopped going abroad in case they abuse kids in Thailand or something. I can't stop people going abroad to engage in any number of things that I don't think they should be legally able to do here.

Child abuse in Thailand isn't legal though, it's just prevalent. That doesn't really follow either. This is what I have a problem with, abortion being likened to a criminal activity.

prinz · 22-04-2012 12:46AM

H2UMrsRobinson wrote: »

Child abuse in Thailand isn't legal though, it's just prevalent. That doesn't really follow either. This is what I have a problem with, abortion being likened to a criminal activity.

Abortion outside of the conditions (admittedly badly) laid out is illegal here whether you like it or not. But that's besides the point, the real issue is that trying to prevent people travelling is ridiculous. We're not mind readers, doesn't matter if they intend to have an abortion or visit a red light district, or use drugs, or play 5-a-side soccer.

H2UMrsRobinson · 22-04-2012 12:54AM

Des Carter wrote: »

I believe that abortions are wrong and should be prevented in the majority of cases. However There is a serious problem with unwanted pregnancy and to just ban women from leaving the country would not be a viable option. there would need to be a lot of resources support and help etc put in place before that can even be considered at all. Society would also have to change and the stigma associated with unplanned pregnancy would need to be removed. Condemming people and looking down on them never works the root problems need to be tackled first to get any real results.

Edit: Also I cant see how you could stop a woman going abroad. How would you know it is for abortion?

That's a fair point, and I don't think anyone actually wants to ban women leaving the country either, I guess it's a case of the individual not wanting abortions to be readily available in Ireland. I'm not likely to ever need an abortion, but I have a 16 year old daughter. I only hope and pray she is never in a position to have to consider one. But if she is I would like to think that the process is not as traumatic as some women have had to experience.

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 12:56AM

Do you think aborted foetus' go to heaven??
Does the RCC think aborted foetus's go to heaven??

prinz · 22-04-2012 01:08AM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Do you think aborted foetus' go to heaven??

I'd certainly hope so.

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Does the RCC think aborted foetus's go to heaven??

I think the best estimation of the RCC's position is that of 'we hope so, and trust in God's mercy'. Same approach is taken to a lot of people. There'd be no distinction between an aborted foetus and a natural miscarriage.

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 01:17AM

Interesting
I thought the RCC wouldn't let you into heaven unbaptised
I'd like clarification on this one

Also, after how many weeks does a foetus get a soul???

prinz · 22-04-2012 01:35AM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Interesting
I thought the RCC wouldn't let you into heaven unbaptised
I'd like clarification on this one

You were wrong. From the Catechism of the RCC..

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

By the by the RCC doesn't decide who gets into heaven or not.

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 01:47AM

prinz wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Interesting
I thought the RCC wouldn't let you into heaven unbaptised
I'd like clarification on this one

You were wrong. From the Catechism of the RCC..

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

By the by the RCC doesn't decide who gets into heaven or not.

So do all unbabtised persons on their death gain entry in this fashion ??
Even people who belonged to other religions???

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 01:49AM

No Limbo or Purgatory anymore???

Des Carter · 22-04-2012 01:53AM

I love how its the militant atheists that keep dragging the church up in this thread. I dont think there has been a single mention of the church in the arguments against.

Im not a fan of the church at all but I really dont see how they are relevant in this discussion. Start a new thread if you want to take the piss out of them.

prinz · 22-04-2012 01:56AM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

So do all unbabtised persons on their death gain entry in this fashion ?? Even people who belonged to other religions???

eyescreamcone wrote: »

No Limbo or Purgatory anymore???

I've helped already. If you want to know more there's always google, or the Christianity forum. I notice your questions are going way off even relating to abortion which indicates you are more interested in doing a bit of trolling.

K-9 · 22-04-2012 02:01AM

Bullseye1 wrote: »

That doesn't make sense if it's true. I'd love to hear an explaination. I'd also like to see some readin material.

Western Europe has a very low abortion rate by global standards, even Eastern Europe which has vary high levels, has decreased since the fall of the Wall etc.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

People tend to look at the UK when they think of abortion, the UK is generally the exception, not the rule.

http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-do/health-topics/Life-stages/sexual-and-reproductive-health/activities/abortion/facts-and-figures-about-abortion-in-the-european-region

England, Wales and Scotland showed rises, they along with Canada and Cubs seem the exception to the rule.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html

So yep, by introducing abortion you eventually drop the abortion rate!

MrStuffins · 22-04-2012 02:07AM

Des Carter wrote: »

I love how its the militant atheists that keep dragging the church up in this thread......

Militant Atheist, lol!

Did you read that term somewhere or come up with it on the spot? Lol!

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 02:22AM

The church takes plenty of interest in the abortion issue and has been very vocal trying to persuade people how to vote in the various abortion referenda.

I was just exploring how the RCC treat the aborted foetus' themselves in imaginary land.

Meanwhile back on terra firma we must deal with the hard cases that get thrown up. You know, the cases where a few prayers just doesn't seem to help.

We must make decisions for ourselves.
Ideally we would have no need for abortions but **** happens in the real world.
I would be in favour of abortion in the early stages of pregnancy.
Before the foetus could survive on it's own or feel pain.

Trying to limit the reasons for abortion is stupid - because in the real world people will tick whatever box is required to get what they want. Therefore in the real world any limited abortion laws would equal abortion on demand.
Knowing this I would still be for it over the cowardly stance of our politicians.

If it wasn't for the outlet in Britain and elsewhere we would be looking at hundreds of back street abortions here.
One is too many.
Protect our women firstly.
Proper education will reduce the amount of abortions - but we still need to have a Plan B for when **** happens!!!

Our laws at present are anti-women
Oh! Just like the RCC is!!!

prinz · 22-04-2012 02:24AM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Oh! Just like the RCC is!!!

Quelle suprise.

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 02:44AM

prinz wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Oh! Just like the RCC is!!!

Quelle suprise.

Reality bites!

Interesting that you didn't quote any other part of my long post but ...whatever

prinz · 22-04-2012 02:55AM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Reality bites!
Interesting that you didn't quote any other part of my long post but ...whatever

Whatever indeed. If that's your position, that's your position, it's not really my fault that you can't seem to present your position without reference to the RCC. I am in no way interested in discussing it with you whatsoever.

FrTony · 22-04-2012 03:12AM

It appears to me that the hip atheist crowd are pro-abortion cos it's cool. Please God it won't be long before it's uncool again.

MrStuffins · 22-04-2012 03:14AM

FrTony wrote: »

It appears to me that the hip atheist crowd are pro-abortion cos it's cool. Please God it won't be long before it's uncool again.

it seems you have had a few too many drinks tonight my friend!

The thread is >400 posts in and you've concluded that people who are pro-abortion are so because "it's cool"? :rolleyes:

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 03:16AM

prinz wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Reality bites!
Interesting that you didn't quote any other part of my long post but ...whatever

Whatever indeed. If that's your position, that's your position, it's not really my fault that you can't seem to present your position without reference to the RCC. I am in no way interested in discussing it with you whatsoever.

Feel free to ignore any part of my posts if you like!

But the RCC are, whether you like it or not, up to their armpits in this debate, and always have been. To try and tipex out their influence on the abortion debate is misleading.
Maybe we should sideline them by pointing out their own problems in the area. ie. Raping children and covering it up wholesale.
It would be great if that worked

eyescreamcone · 22-04-2012 03:19AM

FrTony wrote: »

It appears to me that the hip atheist crowd are pro-abortion cos it's cool. Please God it won't be long before it's uncool again.

Don't you have to be up early for mass?

suicide_circus · 22-04-2012 03:48AM

You qoute me as saying : abortion must unfortunately be legalized.

Your response to this is:

Pushtrak wrote: »

I read that as the problem should be exported.

You read wrong. That is in fact the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said!!!

suicide_circus · 22-04-2012 03:54AM

Des Carter wrote: »

I love how its the militant atheists that keep dragging the church up in this thread. I dont think there has been a single mention of the church in the arguments against.

Im not a fan of the church at all but I really dont see how they are relevant in this discussion. Start a new thread if you want to take the piss out of them.

Agreed. The only people bringing up the church in this thread are the pro abortion lobby. But these are generally the type of people who would swear the sky was green if the church said it was blue. Stickin it to the man (in Rome) etc.

I repeat, my personal dislike for abortion does not come from a religious standpoint, I am agnostic. And I further repeat that I think it should be legal here.

Galwayguy35 · 22-04-2012 04:57AM

HemlockOption wrote: »

I hate abortion but I still think that it should be available to all women during the first trimester.

If you are against abortion in all circumstances, then you are a supporter of forced, compulsory pregnancy.

+1
Sensible post.

PHIDIAS · 22-04-2012 05:00AM

FrTony wrote: »

It appears to me that the hip atheist crowd are pro-abortion cos it's cool. Please God it won't be long before it's uncool again.

LOL:pac:, i would be more concerned if i were you of the "cool" crowd you associate yourself with there Tony.

philologos · 22-04-2012 09:06AM

Bambi wrote: »

They don't, we're 85% catholic.

84%, then 6% other Christians in the last census which still amounts to 270,000 odd people between Reformed Churches / Orthodox.

Bambi wrote: »

It is'nt important in Ireland, if we were in America with all those wacky baptists it might be. But we're not. So it isn't

Perhaps it's because I didn't grow up RCC that I think its important to make clear what one is talking about.

The problem then is people assume that Christianity automatically means RCC, which isn't the case. RCC is only a subset of Christianity albeit a substantial one.

Bambi wrote: »

People understand that "the church"= the roman church, the original franchise, the men with the biggest hats. In just the way that they understand that "town"= dublin, its only people with shouldery chips about the balance of power that make a point about it.

Many people understand the term "the church" in different ways. For me and for many others it means all believing Christians rather than a single institution. That's why it needs to be defined.

Abortion

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