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Abortion

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Comments

  • #272
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    So if a feotus is nothing more than a bunch of worthless cells with no intrinsic value of their own, why do we, as a society, indulge and participate in the excitement and joy of a woman when she announces she's pregnant? Surely it's little more than a parasite?


  • #273
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Des Carter wrote: »
    No because life begins when the embryo attaches to the uterus.

    Are you arguing that sperm cells are dead?? Inanimate objects?


  • #274
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Des Carter wrote: »
    Of course many cases are not black and white but I am talking about the free for all type of abortion (when a woman gets an abortion simply because she doesnt want the baby).
    Which is her right! Its her body, her life and her choice.


  • #275
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    opinion guy wrote: »
    This is actually the justification the church uses to call masturbation a sin and guilt-trip people - spilling your seed and all that. Wasting potential life :rolleyes:
    A sperm is not a potential life
    An egg is not a potential life.
    An egg fertilized by a sperm successfully implanted in the uterus and commencing development is a potential life.

    As I said, I think abortions should be legal because it is simply impractical to tell a woman she HAS to carry a baby to term. I just think its important we arent codding ourselves as to what we are doing.


  • #276
    Tayla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    CommanderC wrote: »
    oh for **** sake.

    When are you people going to listen ???

    You cannot interfere in the lives of people you do not know. Their lives, their bodies, their babies, their abortions- whatever.

    Its none of your business. So many people seem to have such a hard time understanding that their own opinion is not the right one for everyone else :rolleyes:

    This isn't a debate on whether divorce should or shouldn't be illegal or something where the rest of us truly should have no say in how others live their lives.

    It comes down to whether you view a fetus as a person or not (which I do).

    I would never want to interfere in the lives of people I don't know over a trivial matter but this isn't a trivial matter and I believe a fetus is a life just as much as you or I and that needs to be protected, that's not interfering, it's what I believe to be right and I believe that babies should not be terminated unless they won't survive outside the womb or will be severely disabled or if there is a threat to the mothers life.


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  • #277
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Fiona wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if the heart is beating or not, I do not have the right to dictate what a woman does with her own body.
    DarkJager wrote: »
    Because, as has been said many times in this thread, the woman does not become a walking incubator just because she is pregnant.
    DarkJager wrote: »
    When it's born it Is a human being. Prior to that it is a potential life.
    DarkJager wrote: »
    Human rights are for human beings. Until the baby is born it is a potential life.
    Fiona wrote: »
    Pretty much because long after the 24 weeks have passed the woman could decide to commit suicide and then it's baby and mother gone.
    DarkJager wrote: »
    Exactly. Until it enters this world it is a "potential" human.
    DarkJager wrote: »
    I said it is a "potential" life and that I don't see it as a living human being until it is born.
    lividduck wrote: »
    Which is her right! Its her body, her life and her choice.
    For fucks sake.


  • #278
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Haven't read the whole thread but abortion is always a tricky subject. I am quite liberal and on the one hand I think it's horrible to force a woman to carry a child and bring a baby into this world when she's not ready and doesn't want to. Particularly in cases of rape, it is heartbreaking.

    On the other hand, I do believe it is a life you're destroying. Obviously I can't say because you never know until you're in that position, but I don't think I could ever have an abortion, regardless of the cirumstances. And believe me, pregnancy scares the sh1t out of me.


  • #279
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Abortion should be legal and available to all up to about 26 weeks, ie before the high brain functions of the foetus start to develop.

    Before that point it is easy to say that terminating the foetus is not destroying a person, with rights, since personhood is a product of the higher functions of the brain.

    After 26 weeks it becomes hard to justify abortion, since a person has been created. Yes they are a much lesser stage of development that most other persons, but then there seems to be no argument why that means they don't have rights.

    The idea that personhood begins at conception is ridiculous. A zygote is no more a person than a rock is.
    This is correct.


  • #280
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    So if a feotus is nothing more than a bunch of worthless cells with no intrinsic value of their own, why do we, as a society, indulge and participate in the excitement and joy of a woman when she announces she's pregnant? Surely it's little more than a parasite?
    It is a potential life. When the woman in question is happy about the matter, then she wants to bring new life in to the world. So, she is happy and people are happy for her. Did you really need me to explain this to you?


  • #281
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    true-or-false wrote: »
    So any life has a right to life? That would leave us in a pretty sticky situation. So every time I have a period I've murdered my egg by not fertilising it?

    I eat meat too. And a few times when I've been sick, I took antibiotics to kill the bacteria. Did those cells have rights too?
    Don't be silly. We're talking about human life here.

    Since when has an unfertilised egg or any of the other things you've mentioned been considered human life?


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  • #282
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    It is a potential life. When the woman in question is happy about the matter, then she wants to bring new life in to the world. So, she is happy and people are happy for her. Did you really need me to explain this to you?
    So if we accept that this potential life is something she can rejoice over, we must accept that this potential life is something with intrinsic value, no?


  • #283
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    A sperm is not a potential life
    An egg is not a potential life.
    An egg fertilized by a sperm successfully implanted in the uterus and commencing development is a potential life.

    As I said, I think abortions should be legal because it is simply impractical to tell a woman she HAS to carry a baby to term. I just think its important we arent codding ourselves as to what we are doing.


    I didn't say thats what I think I said thats what the church think. I have little in common with the thinking of the church:)


  • #284
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    lividduck wrote: »
    Which is her right! Its her body, her life and her choice.

    What about the babies rights, the babies body and the babies life. Why doesnt the baby get a choice?


  • #285
    Fiona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Fiona


    Des Carter wrote: »
    Why doesnt the baby get a choice?

    But why should it?


  • #286
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    Fiona wrote: »
    But why should it?

    Because its a human life just like you and me and so it has rights


  • #287
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    So if we accept that this potential life is something she can rejoice over, we must accept that this potential life is something with intrinsic value, no?
    Value is subjective. It isn't something objective to all. No matter how strongly you feel on anything, it doesn't make it so that everyone agrees with you. Any time in reality should make this fact understood. Yet, you don't seem to understand.

    Edit: This thread is just going to continue to be a bust, as potential life will constantly be conflated with baby. This is going nowhere, fast.


  • #288
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    Value is subjective. It isn't something objective to all. No matter how strongly you feel on anything, it doesn't make it so that everyone agrees with you. Any time in reality should make this fact understood. Yet, you don't seem to understand.
    any time in reality? why the need to be insulting? when people start getting personal you know they are unsure of their ground. don't worry, this is a very tricky issue and no one can be 100% sure if we're honest. It's the ones who are totally unfaultering in their certainty that i find scary tbh.


  • #289
    dyawannagoonme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭dyawannagoonme


    Des Carter wrote: »
    No because life begins when the embryo attaches to the uterus.

    But its a living cell just like an embryo so......


  • #290
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    any time in reality? why the need to be insulting? when people start getting personal you know they are unsure of their ground. don't worry, this is a very tricky issue and no one can be 100% sure if we're honest. It's the ones who are totally unfaultering in their certainty that i find scary tbh.
    You are trying to argue for intrinsic value. Something so ridiculous as I saw no other way to respond than as I did. That's what is scary, as that is the kind of thought that leads to 100% certainty. If there is intrinsic value and that keeps getting trotted out, it is a discussion closer. "No, lets not talk about this. My way has intrinsic value, so nothing is to be gained from talking about it" type mentality. Perhaps you see my perspective clearer now.


  • #291
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    You are trying to argue for intrinsic value. Something so ridiculous as I saw no other way to respond than as I did. That's what is scary, as that is the kind of thought that leads to 100% certainty. If there is intrinsic value and that keeps getting trotted out, it is a discussion closer. "No, lets not talk about this. My way has intrinsic value, so nothing is to be gained from talking about it" type mentality. Perhaps you see my perspective clearer now.
    i never said anything had intrinsic value, i was putting forward hypotheses and asking if these resulted in intrinsic value.
    i will repeat, i am not religious and think that abortion must unfortunately be legalised.


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  • #292
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Don't be silly. We're talking about human life here.

    Since when has an unfertilised egg or any of the other things you've mentioned been considered human life?

    I was being silly. I claimed it was rights, and not the existence of life, that should be the issue. You claimed life intrinsically deserves rights. So even though I did it in a silly way, I was just trying to point out that whether or not something is alive is not the issue. A human ovum is just that, human. And alive. So yes, it is human life. Yet we all agree (well, I think we do) it has no rights because we do not consider it to have a particular quality which we feel gives it rights. You can call that quality human life, but "human life" can be applied to an ovum, so I would suggest that by human life you are pointing out that quality which you see as giving it rights, possibly a full human genome? But whatever it is that you're talking about, it's not life itself, because a vast myriad of things with no rights are alive.

    Earlier (if I remember correctly it was Doc Ruby?), someone said that for them, that quality is neural activity. That's fine. But I think it should be seen that neural activity doesn't suddenly mean something's alive. Rather, neural activity gives a lifeform a quality which some people believe should earn it rights. That's the real issue.


  • #293
    robman60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭robman60


    I'm extremely conservative when it comes to abortion.

    I don't think it should be available here, as I think it is no different to any other sort of killing. Freedom of choice is well and good, but I don't see how not allowing a woman to kill her child can be seen as infringing on her freedom.

    I think all life does, infact, have intrinsic value, and destroying it inside or outside of the womb is the same destruction of life as far as I'm concerned.

    Also, pain can be felt after 20 weeks of gestation, yet in countries like the UK, abortion is legal far beyond that. That's a tangent from the original point however, as I don't believe pain should be what abortion laws are based on. There are many virtually painless ways a human can die, yet I don't think we should start bringing in capital punishment, for example.


    No, I'm not a born-again Christian or anything of the sort, but I do have innate values. I hope our laws never become accepting of the destruction of life.


  • #294
    dyawannagoonme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭dyawannagoonme


    I think we can all agree that to settle this properly we would need a referendum. Leaving it up to the people. As said by another user earlier


  • #295
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    This thread reminded me of this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqvXshxAb1w


  • #296
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    i never said anything had intrinsic value, i was putting forward hypotheses and asking if these resulted in intrinsic value.
    i will repeat, i am not religious and think that abortion must unfortunately be legalised.
    I read that as the problem should be exported.
    dyawannagoonme wrote: »
    I think we can all agree that to settle this properly we would need a referendum. Leaving it up to the people. As said by another user earlier
    I don't think the country is ready for that. Too much stupidity, IMO.


  • #297
    dyawannagoonme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭dyawannagoonme


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    I don't think the country is ready for that. Too much stupidity, IMO.

    You may have a point...
    Kinda makes you disappointed the way things are in this country :/


  • #298
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Fiona wrote: »
    Pretty much because long after the 24 weeks have passed the woman could decide to commit suicide and then it's baby and mother gone. Now of course that is just a hypothetical situation but one than can happen.

    The suicide card is used alot in this argument to justify abortion on demand. Why don't people just admit that large portion of abortions are carried out for selfish reasons. How many are actually carried out because the woman has threatened to commit suicide? I'd imagine they are in the very small minority.


  • #299
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dyawannagoonme wrote: »
    You may have a point...
    Kinda makes you disappointed the way things are in this country :/

    So because people don't hold the same opinion as you and the poster above you the rest of the population is stupid or incapable of voting for a result that would suit your agenda? What's disappointing is the number of self centered egos who think they are above the rest of the population.


  • #300
    HemlockOption
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 239 ✭✭HemlockOption


    I hate abortion but I still think that it should be available to all women during the first trimester.

    If you are against abortion in all circumstances, then you are a supporter of forced, compulsory pregnancy.


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  • #301
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    The suicide card is used alot in this argument to justify abortion on demand. Why don't people just admit that large portion of abortions are carried out for selfish reasons. How many are actually carried out because the woman has threatened to commit suicide? I'd imagine they are in the very small minority.
    Methinks you have a blind spot. I'd wager that in cases where suicide was a serious consideration, it isn't something that would be threatened. It would be done.


This discussion has been closed.
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