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Abortion

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Comments

  • #242
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    Bambi wrote: »
    What baby? :confused:

    the baby in the womans womb, obviously


  • #243
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    earlyevening wrote: »
    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    In Irish law, life is recognised as having commenced when the embryo attaches to the uterus.

    QUOTE]

    Lol. In that case the oral contraceptive pill causes abortion.

    The pill stops a fertilised egg implanting in the uterine wall. Is this ending a 48 hour old life??

    Think about what you quoted and just wrote.


  • #244
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Wrong. Employment legislation relating to maternity leave does not override constitutional law.

    If what you are saying was correct, why are abortions before 24 weeks illegal in Ireland?

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/maternity_leave.html
    Stillbirths and miscarriages

    If you have a stillbirth or miscarriage any time after the 24th week of pregnancy, you are entitled to full maternity leave. From 1 March 2007 this means a basic period of 26 weeks and 16 weeks of additional maternity leave. If you have satisfied the PRSI requirements, Maternity Benefit is payable for the 26 weeks of the basic maternity leave.

    To apply for Maternity Benefit following a stillbirth, you need to send a letter from your doctor with the Maternity Benefit application form, confirming the expected date of birth, the actual date of birth and the number of weeks of pregnancy.


    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/miscarriage_and_stillbirth/registering_stillbirth.html
    All stillbirths occurring in Ireland since 1 January 1995 must be registered, if the baby weighs at least 500 grammes or has a gestational age of at least 24 weeks.

    You (the parents) can choose to register the stillbirth yourselves, but if you are unable to do so, you may ask a relative of either parent to act as qualified informant to register it on your behalf. If a stillbirth is not registered within 12 months, the hospital, midwife or medical practitioner who attended the birth may asked to register it.

    If you do wish to register the stillbirth yourselves, the medical practitioner who attended the birth or examined the baby must give you a signed medical certificate stating the baby's weight and gestational age, and the name and address of the hospital or other institution where the stillbirth took place.

    If you wish to register a stillbirth that happened before 1 January 1995, you can do so at any time. You will need specific evidence to prove that a stillbirth occurred. This evidence could be an authoritative written statement from your hospital, nursing home, medical practitioner or midwife, but the registrar may accept other forms of evidence.

    Again, the stillbirth can only be registered if the baby weighed at least 500 grammes or had a gestational age of at least 24 weeks.

    If your baby was stillborn in hospital, the hospital staff will usually help you to complete a Birth Notification Form (Form BNF/01). In the case of a home birth, the midwife or doctor will do this. The form outlines the information to be recorded in the Register of Stillbirths. This form will be forwarded to a registration office to inform the registrar that the stillbirth has occurred. The registration process will only be complete when the parent(s) or other qualified informant attends the registrar's office in person and signs the Stillbirths Register.

    The following information is recorded in the Register of Stillbirths:

    Time, date and place of birth of the child
    The child's gender
    The child's weight and gestational age
    The child's Personal Public Service number (PPSN) (this will be allocated at registration)
    The child's forename(s) and surname
    The mother's forename(s) and surname
    The mother's birth surname
    Birth surname of the mother's mother
    All previously used surnames of the mother (if any)
    The mother's normal occupation
    The mother's normal address at the date of birth
    The mother's date of birth
    The mother's marital status
    The mother's Personal Public Service number (PPSN)
    Similar information is entered for the father.

    It's pretty clear that only after 24 weeks does that state see that there was a person there to record information about.


  • #245
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    Sharrow wrote: »
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/maternity_leave.html




    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/miscarriage_and_stillbirth/registering_stillbirth.html



    It's pretty clear that only after 24 weeks does that state see that there was a person there to record information about.

    My point stands. Maternity leave legislation does not override the constitution.

    Why aren't there 'abortions on demand' prior to 24 weeks if what you are saying is correct?


  • #246
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    Fiona wrote: »
    It's not a life in my eyes, it's a bunch of cells plain and simple.

    Is a fetus with a beating heart and developing brainstem at 7 weeks merely a 'bunch of cells'?


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  • #247
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    My point stands. Maternity leave legislation does not override the constitution.

    Why aren't there 'abortions on demand' prior to 24 weeks if what you are saying is correct?

    It's not just maternity leave legislation that it is based on.

    And Why don't we have abortions prior to 24 weeks, due to lack of courage of successive governments.


  • #248
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    Sharrow wrote: »
    It's not just maternity leave legislation that it is based on.

    And Why don't we have abortions prior to 24 weeks, due to lack of courage of successive governments.

    Because it's illegal unless the mother's life is at risk by proceeding with the pregnancy. That is why.


  • #249
    Fiona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Fiona


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Is a fetus with a beating heart and developing brainstem at 7 weeks merely a 'bunch of cells'?

    To me it is. It doesn't matter if the heart is beating or not, I do not have the right to dictate what a woman does with her own body.

    I do not have the right to tell her what clothes to wear, what make up to put on, what shoes to what food to eat or whether to have an abortion or not.

    It's her decision to make her own choices.


  • #250
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Des Carter wrote: »
    Why should she have the right to decide what happens to the babies body? No one should be allowed take anothers life plain and simple. And the fact that some people dont see it as a human life is irrelevant. The Nazis didnt see the Jews as human and they were able to justify murdering millions of them. This is no different

    Because, as has been said many times in this thread, the woman does not become a walking incubator just because she is pregnant. Just like this talk about banning smoking in parks today, we have a serious problem in this country with self appointed moral guardians. They are so ****ing pious, they believe they can instruct everyone on how to live their lives without actually knowing **** all. Personal choice is personal choice, nobody else's business.


  • #251
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    Fiona wrote: »
    To me it is. It doesn't matter if the heart is beating or not, I do not have the right to dictate what a woman does with her own body.

    I do not have the right to tell her what clothes to wear, what make up to put on, what shoes to what food to eat or whether to have an abortion or not.

    It's her decision to make her own choices.

    At what point does the fetus have a right to life according to you? Or does it have no right to life so long as it remains in the womb?


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  • #252
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Atlantis50 wrote: »

    At what point does the fetus have a right to life according to you? Or does it have no right to life so long as it remains in the womb?

    When it's born it Is a human being. Prior to that it is a potential life.


  • #253
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    DarkJager wrote: »
    Personal choice is personal choice, nobody else's business.

    Absolutely, as long as it does not take away from others human rights. Which abortion does.


  • #254
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Des Carter wrote: »
    DarkJager wrote: »
    Personal choice is personal choice, nobody else's business.

    Absolutely, as long as it does not take away from others human rights. Which abortion does.

    Human rights are for human beings. Until the baby is born it is a potential life. There are no guarantees (due to numerous possibilities of misfortune) that it will become a life.


  • #255
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    DarkJager wrote: »
    When it's born it Is a human being. Prior to that it is a potential life.

    If a baby was killed immediately after birth, that would be a murder. But if the baby was killed just prior to birth, no crime has been commited becuase no life was taken. That is your position.


  • #256
    Fiona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Fiona


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Or does it have no right to life so long as it remains in the womb?

    Pretty much because long after the 24 weeks have passed the woman could decide to commit suicide and then it's baby and mother gone. Now of course that is just a hypothetical situation but one than can happen.


  • #257
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    DarkJager wrote: »
    When it's born it Is a human being. Prior to that it is a potential life.

    If a baby was killed immediately after birth, that would be a murder. But if the baby was killed just prior to birth, no crime has been commited becuase no life was taken. That is your position.

    Exactly. Until it enters this world it is a "potential" human.


  • #258
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    DarkJager wrote: »
    Because, as has been said many times in this thread, the woman does not become a walking incubator just because she is pregnant. J

    When a woman is pregnant she has a human being living in her womb and she has a responsibility to protect and mind her baby by not drinking not smoking not doing drugs and not going to a hospital and getting it murdered


  • #259
    dyawannagoonme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭dyawannagoonme


    Does that mean that if I masturbate tonight I am a murderer because the sperm cells that I ejected will die?
    A bit off topic from abortion I know...


  • #260
    Ulises Deep Geisha
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ulises Deep Geisha


    Des Carter wrote: »
    When a woman is pregnant she has a human being living in her womb and she has a responsibility to protect and mind her baby by not drinking not smoking not doing drugs and not going to a hospital and getting it murdered

    Well since it's not murder in the UK she can hop off there so


  • #261
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Des Carter wrote: »

    When a woman is pregnant she has a human being living in her womb and she has a responsibility to protect and mind her baby by not drinking not smoking not doing drugs and not going to a hospital and getting it murdered

    I love how you throw the word "murdered" in there, real strong emotional word to cloud up the waters a bit. If the life of the mother was at risk because of a child who may or not even live till birth, would you consider it murder? Because allowing non termination of it costing the mothers life in the process is double murder. Or would that just be unfortunate in your eyes?


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  • #262
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    dyawannagoonme wrote: »
    Does that mean that if I masturbate tonight I am a murderer because the sperm cells that I ejected will die?
    A bit off topic from abortion I know...

    Yes, you can consider yourself a modern **** Pol Pot.


  • #263
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    DarkJager wrote: »
    Exactly. Until it enters this world it is a "potential" human.

    Your position that abortions should be allowed right up to birth is extreme. I doubt even those who agree with abortions would support this.

    Practically though, an inducement would be more likely in that case but you would not be bothered with a late term abortion.


  • #264
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Abortion should be legal and available to all up to about 26 weeks, ie before the high brain functions of the foetus start to develop.

    Before that point it is easy to say that terminating the foetus is not destroying a person, with rights, since personhood is a product of the higher functions of the brain.

    After 26 weeks it becomes hard to justify abortion, since a person has been created. Yes they are a much lesser stage of development that most other persons, but then there seems to be no argument why that means they don't have rights.

    The idea that personhood begins at conception is ridiculous. A zygote is no more a person than a rock is.


  • #265
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    DarkJager wrote: »
    I love how you throw the word "murdered" in there, real strong emotional word to cloud up the waters a bit. If the life of the mother was at risk because of a child who may or not even live till birth, would you consider it murder? Because allowing non termination of it costing the mothers life in the process is double murder. Or would that just be unfortunate in your eyes?

    Of course many cases are not black and white but I am talking about the free for all type of abortion (when a woman gets an abortion simply because she doesnt want the baby).


  • #266
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    When life begins the right to life automatically exists so when life begins is the point.

    So any life has a right to life? That would leave us in a pretty sticky situation. So every time I have a period I've murdered my egg by not fertilising it?

    I eat meat too. And a few times when I've been sick, I took antibiotics to kill the bacteria. Did those cells have rights too?


  • #267
    DarkJager
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭DarkJager


    Atlantis50 wrote: »

    Your position that abortions should be allowed right up to birth is extreme. I doubt even those who agree with abortions would support this.

    Practically though, an inducement would be more likely in that case but you would not be bothered with a late term abortion.

    Stop twisting my words for dramatic effect. I said it is a "potential" life and that I don't see it as a living human being until it is born. That does not mean I advocate termination at 36 weeks.


  • #268
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    I don't know what all the fuss is about.

    Sher, me Ma aborted me when I was a wee thing. Never did me any harm. :pac:


  • #269
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    dyawannagoonme wrote: »
    Does that mean that if I masturbate tonight I am a murderer because the sperm cells that I ejected will die?
    A bit off topic from abortion I know...

    No because life begins when the embryo attaches to the uterus.


  • #270
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dyawannagoonme wrote: »
    Does that mean that if I masturbate tonight I am a murderer because the sperm cells that I ejected will die?
    A bit off topic from abortion I know...


    This is actually the justification the church uses to call masturbation a sin and guilt-trip people - spilling your seed and all that. Wasting potential life :rolleyes:


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  • #271
    H2UMrsRobinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 777 ✭✭✭H2UMrsRobinson


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0324/1224313801571.html

    Just reading a few of these heart wrenching stories it makes me so angry that women don't have the right to get this procedure done on home soil. Wake up Ireland, Irish foetuses are being aborted every day. "oh but we don't have abortion in Ireland"...course not, we've exported the problem, and then have the cheek to turn round and condemn the British "who use abortion as a form of contraceptive". Oh this makes my blood boil, it really does. Women, OUR women, forced to travel many miles and usually at great expense to have a procedure that has already caused them great mental anguish - and don't get me started on the guilt they must be feeling or have been made to feel by others - SERIOUSLY WTF !!!


This discussion has been closed.
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