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Abortion

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Comments

  • #182
    Show Time
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Show Time


    Only in situations where the child is incompatible with life. Otherwise we would end up like England where it is a form of contraceptive.


  • #183
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    LilyCricket wrote: »
    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?

    There's already another thread on this. In short no, I'm pro-life because I think that it is wrong to deny an unborn child the fundamental liberty to life.


  • #184
    mongdesade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 330 ✭✭mongdesade


    Yes...my personal opinion


  • #185
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Show Time wrote: »
    Only in situations where the child is incompatible with life. Otherwise we would end up like England where it is a form of contraceptive.

    I think that comment shows a huge lack of knowledge on the subject. First of all an abortion is not cheap, there are plenty of other more affordable forms of contraception.

    Secondly it takes a lot out of you physically. You can either have a medical abortion which is basically a miscarriage, its painful, it can take a long time to happen and you can't exactly carry on with normal life while its happening.

    Or you can have a surgical abortion which is a physically invasive procedure which is again time consuming and takes time to recover from.

    For most the experience is so traumatic its their last. Having gone through it I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

    This idea that a woman can have an abortion on her lunch hour like its a leg wax or a smear is a total myth.

    Of course I am sure there are women out there who are having multiple abortions but I think its a lot more rare than we would be led to believe...I also think there are probably bigger issues there.


  • #186
    Ulises Deep Geisha
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ulises Deep Geisha


    Show Time wrote: »
    Only in situations where the child is incompatible with life. Otherwise we would end up like England where it is a form of contraceptive.

    Considering a contraceptive prevents conception and an abortion deals with the aftermath of conception...


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  • #187
    anhedonia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭anhedonia


    Yawn.


  • #188
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Considering a contraceptive prevents conception and an abortion deals with the aftermath of conception...

    Whats the aftermath of conception?


  • #189
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Whats the aftermath of conception?

    pregnancy?


  • #190
    cruiser178
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭cruiser178


    krudler wrote: »
    pregnancy?


    smart fecker :D


  • #191
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    krudler wrote: »
    pregnancy?

    You trickster, you!
    *shakes fist*


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  • #192
    Blue_Seas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭Blue_Seas


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Good point.

    You certainly wouldn't be telling her 'just think of it as being a cluster of cells...a tumour'.

    No I wouldn't because I'm not heartless. To her it was a life. To a pregnant woman it could be a life that she has to terminate for health reasons, or it could be something unwanted that she has to get rid of.

    In my opinion abortion is necessary until we have the means to take fetuses out and have them grow to a full baby, but not inside the mother. Just because she created the thing doesn't mean she is obliged to keep it.

    You're looking for ridiculous flaws in my argument that have nothing to do with the topic at hand - termination, not spontaneous abortion (which is a miscarriage)


  • #193
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I think that in this day and age there's little excuse for surprise pregnancy. Young people need to be better informed about, and have better access to, contraceptives.

    In an ideal world there'd be no need for abortion, but I think it should be legal. No woman should be forced to have a child that she doesn't want and can't afford.

    I couldn't see myself having an abortion unless the foetus had a serious genetic problem. Watching the documentary 'The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off' was a real eye opener; it's very difficult to watch a person who say that he wished he'd never been born, and see him agreeing with his mother that if she'd known he'd have such a severe condition she would have aborted him.


  • #194
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    true-or-false wrote: »
    But when life begins isn't the point - the point is when the right to that life begins.

    I believe a foetus is alive, I believe an embryo is alive, I believe a zygote is alive. I believe sperm are alive. But I don't think it should have any rights until quite far into pregnancy.

    Well put. It certainly is a case of deciding when during development the zygote/fetus gains rights and before that, when it is simply a bundle of cells heading that way.


  • #195
    Show Time
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Show Time


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think that comment shows a huge lack of knowledge on the subject. First of all an abortion is not cheap, there are plenty of other more affordable forms of contraception.

    Secondly it takes a lot out of you physically. You can either have a medical abortion which is basically a miscarriage, its painful, it can take a long time to happen and you can't exactly carry on with normal life while its happening.

    Or you can have a surgical abortion which is a physically invasive procedure which is again time consuming and takes time to recover from.

    For most the experience is so traumatic its their last. Having gone through it I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

    This idea that a woman can have an abortion on her lunch hour like its a leg wax or a smear is a total myth.

    Of course I am sure there are women out there who are having multiple abortions but I think its a lot more rare than we would be led to believe...I also think there are probably bigger issues there.
    I have a lot more knowledge than i care to on the subject.
    As i said i would only like to see abortion in Ireland for good medical reasons. That is my own personal take on it.


  • #196
    44leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    I could do with a flabbortion, I'm piling it on.


  • #197
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Does Irish law give a legal definition of when life begins?

    Yes.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self before 24 weeks, you misscarried and there is no birthcert or person to register and you don't get maternity leave to recover.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self after 24 weeks you get a brirthcert and a death cert and you go on maternity leave to recover.

    The state does not see pregnancies which didn't get as far as 24 weeks as being a 'person'.


  • #198
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    *bashes head on table*

    These threads always turn out so well.


  • #199
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,639 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Yes.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self before 24 weeks, you misscarried and there is no birthcert or person to register and you don't get maternity leave to recover.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self after 24 weeks you get a brirthcert and a death cert and you go on maternity leave to recover.

    The state does not see pregnancies which didn't get as far as 24 weeks as being a 'person'.

    Interesting.


  • #200
    Chain_reaction
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Chain_reaction


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Yes.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self before 24 weeks, you misscarried and there is no birthcert or person to register and you don't get maternity leave to recover.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self after 24 weeks you get a brirthcert and a death cert and you go on maternity leave to recover.

    The state does not see pregnancies which didn't get as far as 24 weeks as being a 'person'.

    That's a strange one alright.


  • #201
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Yes.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self before 24 weeks, you misscarried and there is no birthcert or person to register and you don't get maternity leave to recover.

    If your pregnancy ends it'self after 24 weeks you get a brirthcert and a death cert and you go on maternity leave to recover.

    The state does not see pregnancies which didn't get as far as 24 weeks as being a 'person'.

    Maybe that's because a miscarriage isn't quite the same thing as a birth.

    A birth certificate is a description of a birth. Not a miscarriage. The child was already dead.


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  • #202
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    LilyCricket wrote: »
    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?


    Jesus Christ Lily don't mention the war!!!
    Don't you know the nation as a whole agreed never to discuss the issues again - not since the trauma of the referendum in the 90's!! Collectively the entire nation has ignored the issue for almost 20 years until you started the thread.

    Didn't you get the memo ?????:eek:



    Next thing you'll be wanting to discuss why a couple who hate each others guts have to wait 4 years to get divorc.........oh **** I've said too much.......***blows out brains.......


  • #203
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    If a potato could speak maybe it would say who are you to cook me up and make mashed spuds?

    While I feel the point you were responding to was slightly simplistic, I also feel it's a tad simplistic to compare a potatoe to somethig with life, or potential life, whatever you want to call it.

    People should have the right to choose, or at least have the right to be assessed on a case by case basis. I've got my own views on abortion, I am uncomfortable with the idea of it, and I'm not even religious. But ultimately, I can't make decisions for people.


  • #204
    Ulises Deep Geisha
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ulises Deep Geisha


    philologos wrote: »
    Maybe that's because a miscarriage isn't quite the same thing as a birth.

    A birth certificate is a description of a birth. Not a miscarriage. The child was already dead.

    Right, because a miscarriage and a stillbirth are different in terms of weeks, not whether it was dead or not
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/miscarriage_and_stillbirth/bereavement_and_childbirth.html


  • #205
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    in an abortion, the foetus is terminated but if a woman miscarries she 'loses the baby'?


  • #206
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    in an abortion, the foetus is terminated but if a woman miscarries she 'loses the baby'?

    That seems to be the case alright.


  • #207
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,462 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Personally I wouldn't agree with it but at the same time I think freedom of choice is important and I wouldn't like someone telling me what I can and can't do. An ex of mine had an abortion from a previous relationship. None of her family knew and she was never going to tell them.


  • #208
    Old Tom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Old Tom


    MickySticks wrote: »
    What ever you think of abortion, people should have the freedom of choice IMO.
    It all comes to deciding at what stage a fetus becomes a person.

    If we want to be so human and correct I think that it would be quite important to ask "abortee" for the opinion as well... Perhaps he/she wouldn't like to be aborted, and then what? :confused:



    OP, weren't you just a fetus at some stage?

    From today's perspective, would you like to be aborted? Would you like your chance to be taken off you, just because some girl got a ride but then she was too busy with college work, so got rid of the "inconvenience"?


  • #209
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    LilyCricket wrote: »
    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?


    I can't see why not. It would only bring Ireland more or less into line with almost all other reasonably developed European countries.:) I'm in one now - Finland - where abortion is available more or less on demand, as it is in all of the neighbouring states, and I haven't seem much evidence that society is crashing down around my or anyone else's ears. In fact, I believe fewer Finnish women have abortions that Irish women (in the UK and elsewhere), which probably has a lot to do with sex education, easy availability of contraception and - perhaps most importantly - a stronger sense of responsibility on the part of citizens.:rolleyes:

    Few of you will be old enough to recall the 1970s and 1980s, when condoms and other contraceptive aids were banned in Ireland. The arrival of AIDS created pressure to change that - against the fierce opposition of the kiddy-fiddler church - and eventually the Government had to make an important first step: contraceptives were made available to married couples on prescription (I'm not kidding, look it up!). Asked about it by a bemused English journalist, the then Taoiseach and renowned champion of family values (when he wasn't shagging his long-term mistress, a journalist and wife of a High Court judge) Charles J. Haughey said it was: "An Irish solution to an Irish problem.":D:D

    Well, just in case anyone hasn't noticed, we also found an Irish solution to the Irish problem of abortion long ago.:)

    That Irish solution to an Irish problem is called "England".;)


  • #210
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Old Tom wrote: »
    It all comes to deciding at what stage a fetus becomes a person.

    No it actually doesn't. Nobody is ever forced to impinge on their bodily integrity to save the life of someone who is an indisputably a person. Not even to the point of having to donate blood (a procedure that comes no where near to comparing with the invasiveness, physical discomfort and potential for lifelong physical damage of pregnancy) if they are the only match for someone who will definitely die without it. We don't even insist that the dead give up their organs which are useless to them, in order to save the life of many people who will die without them.

    We give a foetus with the mental capacity of a worm more rights than we do mothers, wives, fathers, husbands, friends, children, etc in need of transfusions and transplants and we give the dead more rights to bodily integrity than we do living women.
    Old Tom wrote: »
    If we want to be so human and correct I think that it would be quite important to ask "abortee" for the opinion as well... Perhaps he/she wouldn't like to be aborted, and then what? :confused:

    Well the abortee would say precisely nothing if you asked them what they wanted as they have such limited capacity for thought they can't even comprehend the idea of life or death. Now if you ask someone who needs a kidney that's not forthcoming if they want a kidney or not, they'd more than likely reply with conviction that they really, really would. But the answer is regularly tough noogies.


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  • #211
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    That Irish solution to an Irish problem is called "England".;)

    The thing is though, is abortion a solution to the problem? Or does the problem still remain. I wouldn't see the problem as the child, rather the problem is carelessness in respect to sexual expression. That problem remains, abortion shoves it under the carpet.


This discussion has been closed.
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