Let's talk Academic Inflation

Xios · 20-04-2012 10:42AM #1

Wiki

Academic inflation is the process of inflation of the minimum job requirement, resulting in an excess of college-educated individuals with lower degrees (associate and bachelor's degrees) competing for too few jobs that require these degrees and even higher, preferred qualifications (master's or doctorate degrees). This condition causes an intensified race for higher qualification and education in a society where a bachelor's degree today is no longer sufficient to gain employment in the same jobs that may have only required a two- or four-year degree in former years. [1] Inflation has occurred in the minimum degree requirements for jobs, to the level of master's degrees, Ph.D.s, and post-doctoral, even where advanced degree knowledge is not absolutely necessary to perform the required job.

So, when i graduate next summer, with an honours BA in Business, it'll pretty much be worth the same as a leaving cert in 1996. I'm so excited.

sbsquarepants · 20-04-2012 10:44AM

I have 2 nobel prizes. Would you like fries with that?:D

Cee-Jay-Cee · 20-04-2012 10:46AM

Too early in the morning for this kinda shíte.

AnonoBoy · 20-04-2012 10:48AM

Ah let's not.

JohnMarston · 20-04-2012 10:48AM

And with the rise in redundancy, you'll be competing for jobs with degree holders who already have years of relevant experience.

summerskin · 20-04-2012 10:49AM

I have a policy of hiring people without degrees where possible. If you stood two people in their early twenties before me and asked me whether I wanted to choose the person who had been working hard since the age of 16 or 18 and was fully aware of what was expected of a person in the workplace, or the person with the degree, sense of entitlement and inflated self-worth(of course not all grads are like that, and I have employed a few of them over the years that have been good), I'd take the worker everytime.

Degrees are pretty much worthless. I did mine 18 years ago and was given jobs purely because I had a degree, regardless of the fact that it was of no relevance to the job and has been of no use in any workplace.

Plazaman · 20-04-2012 10:52AM

A little bit of advice I like to give to all graduates with a BA in anything.

Make sure you know that it's sauce first, then cheese, then toppings. Then you'll BAble for anything....

*gets coat

Guill · 20-04-2012 11:03AM

When the education system was established it was based on the industrial requirements and economic conditions.

Basically most people could only go to primary school.
(factory worker level)
Some went through secondary
(trades, mid level management)
Few went to college
(gauranteed job).

That system worked for 100+ years but the economy changed and upset the balance. The standard 20 years ago was:

Everybody must go to primary school.
Some leave secondary school early
(trades, Factory workers)
Alot finish education after secondary school.
(trades, Factory workers, work way up ladder, etc.)
increase in college graduates.
(gauranteed job).

This year:
Everybody must go to primary school.
Some leave secondary school early
(trades, Factory workers, dole)
Alot finish education after secondary school.
(trades, Factory workers, work way up ladder, dole, etc.)
Most go to college.
(No jobs, dole , emmigration, fill what few jobs are available).

If you stand back and look at the education system as a machine we have all the settings wrong and are making the wrong product at the moment (graduates). Hence why the Governament will raise fees.

JohnMarston · 20-04-2012 11:04AM

summerskin wrote: »

Degrees are pretty much worthless. I did mine 18 years ago and was given jobs purely because I had a degree, regardless of the fact that it was of no relevance to the job and has been of no use in any workplace.

Its hammered into you from the start of the leaving cert two year cycle that third level education is the way to go. When you graduate you feel like you've accomplished something useful. How much good does it do to someones self-worth when theyre told their degree is worth little?

Guill · 20-04-2012 11:07AM

http://youtu.be/zDZFcDGpL4U

Xios · 20-04-2012 11:22AM

Guill wrote: »

http://youtu.be/zDZFcDGpL4U

I've seen that one, really wish the civil servants in the dep. of education had a look at it though.

daddydick · 20-04-2012 11:25AM

summerskin wrote: »

I have a policy of hiring people without degrees where possible. If you stood two people in their early twenties before me and asked me whether I wanted to choose the person who had been working hard since the age of 16 or 18 and was fully aware of what was expected of a person in the workplace, or the person with the degree, sense of entitlement and inflated self-worth(of course not all grads are like that, and I have employed a few of them over the years that have been good), I'd take the worker everytime.

Degrees are pretty much worthless. I did mine 18 years ago and was given jobs purely because I had a degree, regardless of the fact that it was of no relevance to the job and has been of no use in any workplace.

Hold on now, that may work for whatever your line of business is but in any of the high value industries such as pharma, engineering, accounting, investment banking, science, IT etc etc etc you are saying that the school-leaver is a better hire than the college grad??

Don't know what industry you're in but that doesnt make sense for quite a lot of industries

libnation · 20-04-2012 11:30AM

Wikipedia thought me more than college

summerskin · 20-04-2012 11:42AM

libnation wrote: »

Wikipedia thought me more than college

Clearly not...

Guill · 20-04-2012 11:43AM

libnation wrote: »

Wikipedia thought me more than college

Didn't learn much in college then?

previous user · 20-04-2012 11:50AM

JohnMarston wrote: »

Its hammered into you from the start of the leaving cert two year cycle that third level education is the way to go. When you graduate you feel like you've accomplished something useful. How much good does it do to someones self-worth when theyre told their degree is worth little?

Thats shocking, feel bad for those kids, I'm 35 unemployed and hoping to go back to college to do some degree or something.

Red_Wake · 20-04-2012 11:50AM

summerskin wrote: »

I have a policy of hiring people without degrees where possible. If you stood two people in their early twenties before me and asked me whether I wanted to choose the person who had been working hard since the age of 16 or 18 and was fully aware of what was expected of a person in the workplace, or the person with the degree, sense of entitlement and inflated self-worth(of course not all grads are like that, and I have employed a few of them over the years that have been good), I'd take the worker everytime.

Degrees are pretty much worthless. I did mine 18 years ago and was given jobs purely because I had a degree, regardless of the fact that it was of no relevance to the job and has been of no use in any workplace.

What industry are you in?

summerskin · 20-04-2012 11:57AM

Oil.

Red_Wake · 20-04-2012 11:59AM

summerskin wrote: »

Oil.

And in what capacity would you be looking to hire people?

I doubt it's rig design.:)

summerskin · 20-04-2012 12:12PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

And in what capacity would you be looking to hire people?

I doubt it's rig design.:)

You're right. The degree must have made you smart...

I'm talking about entry level jobs (sales, administration, customer service etc), which at the moment is all a graduate can expect in 95% of cases. The curse of Mickey Mouse degrees has rendered the majority of them unemployable. Do I really want to hire the person with a BA in Horticulture in 18th Century Peru over the lad who has spent two or three years in various low-paid sales jobs developing his skills in that, more relevant, field? No.

Would I want to hire a graduate to design an off-shore mobile drilling semisub? Probably not also, I'd go for the 50+ year old who started off as an apprentice engineer and has worked on multiple such projects in the past, gaining knowledge and skills from experts in their field.

I'd give the graduate what is pretty much the equivalent of an old apprentice position. What is learned in books is not always transferrable to real-life instances. The best way to learn is from other people actually DOING the job, not from textbooks or academics for the most part. The degree may give them some theoretical knowledge, but they possess none of the actual skills required to complete the task.

MonkeyTennis · 20-04-2012 12:17PM

a degree often shows the ability to learn and apply to a high level. You seem to have a reverse snobbery.

summerskin · 20-04-2012 12:24PM

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

a degree often shows the ability to learn and apply to a high level. You seem to have a reverse snobbery.

Not at all, I did a degree myself. I would say though that in the last 20-30 years degrees have been massively devalued (and mine was a mickey mouse degree, spent 3 years dossing and drinking and then worked for about 2 weeks at the end to get a 2.1). Now pretty much everyone seems to have a degree in something or other, yet most of them can't seem to spell properly or even do basic maths.

My recruitment choice is based on years of experience. I have worked at a company that only recruited graduates and it was a disaster, a policy I changed within 3 months of joining them. The snobbery comes from people with degrees looking down on those who leave school after their LC/A-levels and go straight in to the workforce. They think a degree opens every door for them and those who choose not to go to University are "throwing their life away" or have no ambition. I've interviewed countless graduates who stated that they "expected" to be at management level within a year, despite having no experience of the actual role.

kippy · 20-04-2012 12:49PM

Its got very little to do with academic inflation and more to do with job and the jobs market.
Nowadays there are fewer jobs in the manual side of things, production of something solid that can be sold.
There are more and more of these "knowledge economy" type jobs where you generally need to have a degree in something to "prove" you know the basis of something.

However many of todays college degrees are just fluff, you learn very little that is related to the job it is meant to train you for. Even more degrees don't train you for a specific role, just provides you with a broad education.

In the workplace, there are traits other than the piece of paper you have, that are far more valued.
Ability to adapt to changing requirements,
Posses a good attitude.
Works well without supervision.
Communicates and gets on with peers.
Achieves meaningful results.

No matter what anyone tells you, you dont "learn" these in college.

I feel sorry for those leaving college at the moment, there are some jobs out there for them but they are competing with people with experience as well as qualifications.

The reasons degrees and college in general appears to be "devalued" is more to do with the amount of people that have them, rather than the standards in education.
Back in the day, certain courses would have been "easier" to pass than they are now, it's just that "free" education has opened up third level to far more people, without the corresponding increase in jobs that those certifications are applicable to/for. Indeed a lot of those jobs that state a requirement of college education, really don't need that level at all.

MonkeyTennis · 20-04-2012 12:57PM

summerskin wrote: »

Not at all, I did a degree myself. I would say though that in the last 20-30 years degrees have been massively devalued (and mine was a mickey mouse degree, spent 3 years dossing and drinking and then worked for about 2 weeks at the end to get a 2.1). Now pretty much everyone seems to have a degree in something or other, yet most of them can't seem to spell properly or even do basic maths.

My recruitment choice is based on years of experience. I have worked at a company that only recruited graduates and it was a disaster, a policy I changed within 3 months of joining them. The snobbery comes from people with degrees looking down on those who leave school after their LC/A-levels and go straight in to the workforce. They think a degree opens every door for them and those who choose not to go to University are "throwing their life away" or have no ambition. I've interviewed countless graduates who stated that they "expected" to be at management level within a year, despite having no experience of the actual role.

So you wouldnt hire someone like your good self?

steddyeddy · 20-04-2012 12:58PM

Xios wrote: »

Wiki

So, when i graduate next summer, with an honours BA in Business, it'll pretty much be worth the same as a leaving cert in 1996. I'm so excited.

Businesses are also starting to look at first year university results aswell.

Duggys Housemate · 20-04-2012 01:01PM

summerskin wrote: »

Would I want to hire a graduate to design an off-shore mobile drilling semisub? Probably not also, I'd go for the 50+ year old who started off as an apprentice engineer and has worked on multiple such projects in the past, gaining knowledge and skills from experts in their field.

I'd give the graduate what is pretty much the equivalent of an old apprentice position. What is learned in books is not always transferrable to real-life instances. The best way to learn is from other people actually DOING the job, not from textbooks or academics for the most part. The degree may give them some theoretical knowledge, but they possess none of the actual skills required to complete the task.

All graduates in IT, where I work, are effectively apprentices. Nobody has ever doubted that, and its true of engineering too. It's always been the case. What the employer gets however, is someone who knows the theory - something that needs intensive training - for free. Then the practical learning is hands on. People obviously get better over time.

You have moved on from your original argument, you are now claiming that you prefer experience to a degree ( sure, who doesn't), rather than you wouldn't ever hire people with degrees. If your oil company is not hiring graduates its going to find itself unable to extract oil, or make that extraction more economical in the future and your company will die.

It does seem that you may not be in those departments, where degrees are necessary, at least I hope not, because if it is the generally theory of your Oil company to not hire grads, the shareholders should know.

summerskin · 20-04-2012 01:03PM

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

So you wouldnt hire someone like your good self?

No chance at all! I spent some time travelling after spending three months looking for work. I took low paid jobs in places in Europe and the USA for two or three years so that when I finally went for an interview for a slightly better/higher paid job I had some experience to show for it. Funnily later in my career I moved to a company that insisted on a degree. The job was in immigration law and my degree was in Media, not relevant at all. It was at that company changed the recruitment process to include none graduates.

I still hire grads, but they're rarely the first choice.

Duggys Housemate · 20-04-2012 01:07PM

summerskin wrote: »

No chance at all! I spent some time travelling after spending three months looking for work. I took low paid jobs in places in Europe and the USA for two or three years so that when I finally went for an interview for a slightly better/higher paid job I had some experience to show for it. Funnily later in my career I moved to a company that insisted on a degree. The job was in immigration law and my degree was in Media, not relevant at all. It was at that company changed the recruitment process to include none graduates.

I still hire grads, but they're rarely the first choice.

Yes but you are not really in charge of hiring the main workers for that engineering based oil extraction industry you are in. Employers need, by the way, to actually train people up. An engineering degree is a general degree, it would need some work to make it an Oil Engineer out of a general engineer. If all of your industry are playing chicken and not hiring graduates then pretty soon none of you will get anybody with 3 years experience.

OneArt · 20-04-2012 01:07PM

I'm only starting a degree this year so I can get higher paying positions. I've been a freelance copywriter for the last few months and I'm amazed at the skills I've been forced to develop. But there are a tonne of websites looking for academic researchers/writers and you need to have a college level education to apply. Hopefully a degree from Germany is worth it!

I was amazed at the amount of language schools here as well who hired teachers without degrees. They cared more about getting native speakers.

summerskin · 20-04-2012 01:08PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

All graduates in IT, where I work, are effectively apprentices. Nobody has ever doubted that, and its true of engineering too. It's always been the case. What the employer gets however, is someone who knows the theory - something that needs intensive training - for free. Then the practical learning is hands on. People obviously get better over time.

You have moved on from your original argument, you are now claiming that you prefer experience to a degree ( sure, who doesn't), rather than you wouldn't ever hire people with degrees. If your oil company is not hiring graduates its going to find itself unable to extract oil, or make that extraction more economical in the future and your company will die.

It does seem that you may not be in those departments, where degrees are necessary, at least I hope not, because if it is the generally theory of your Oil company to not hire grads, the shareholders should know.

I said I hire non-grads WHERE POSSIBLE, not all the time. I also pointed out that for the most part I was referring to lower level positions.

Also, I'm not in any of those departments, I'm the national manager reporting to the EMEAR Director of Operations who is based overseas.

Pherekydes · 20-04-2012 01:09PM

I got an E in the mock Inter Cert Maths in 1976. This is probably worth a 1.1 now.

Let's talk Academic Inflation

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