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Garda with no licience,tax, and bald tyres kills two and gets a fine!

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Comments

  • #212
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    mathepac wrote: »
    How do you know that? What information do you have that the bald tyres did not mean the difference between two people living or dying? Are you a motor engineer or crash investigator? Did you examine the scene or the car? For someone who has apparently no more knowledge that the rest of us, your posts seem to imply differently.

    He was where he was on the night of the accident, how is that going to change? this is my point, if he had everything in order he was still going to be in that place at that time and the accident was going to happen.
    I dunno why you are trying to imply anything else.


  • #213
    HigginsJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,317 ✭✭✭HigginsJ


    Look whether or not better tyres would have made any difference is nothing but speculation. They may have made a difference, they may not. No-one can no for sure.


    There seems to be nothing said that the tyres that were on the car contributed in any way to the accident and henceforth the Garda is not criminally culpable in any way.

    I think the tyres, tax, licence are side stories used to highlight what is a simple case of wrong place wrong time for a group of people.


  • #214
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    mathepac wrote: »
    hondasam wrote: »
    ... my point was if he had d/lic tax and no bald tyres it would still be the same outcome.
    How do you know that? What information do you have that the bald tyres did not mean the difference between two people living or dying? Are you a motor engineer or crash investigator? Did you examine the scene or the car? For someone who has apparently no more knowledge that the rest of us, your posts seem to imply differently.

    You can be charged with dangerous driving causing death if the condition of the vehicle is a major factor in a fatal accident. As he wasn't charged with such an offense, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the condition of the tyres was not a factor.

    http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/death-crash-driver-avoids-jail-sentence-2613090.html


  • #215
    kkdela6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 414 ✭✭kkdela6


    When they say he had no license, do they mean he doesn't currently hold a valid driving license or that he just didn't have his license on him at the time (e.g left it at home or something)?


  • #216
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    marco_polo wrote: »
    You can be charged with dangerous driving causing death if the condition of the vehicle is a major factor in a fatal accident. As he wasn't charged with such an offense, it

    http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/death-crash-driver-avoids-jail-sentence-2613090.html
    is not unreasonable to conclude that the condition of the tyres was not a factor or to conclude that being a copper means you get away lighter than anyone else!


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  • #217
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭mathepac


    marco_polo wrote: »
    ... . As he wasn't charged with such an offense, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the condition of the tyres was not a factor...
    Incorrect. The only conclusion we can reach is that the DPP decided on a set of charges to proceed with, leaving out the killing of two people; what we don't know now is why. Maybe we'll find out, but I suspect we won't.


  • #218
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    he is guilty of manslaughter


  • #219
    TylerIE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭TylerIE


    mathepac wrote: »
    Incorrect. The only conclusion we can reach is that the DPP decided on a set of charges to proceed with, leaving out the killing of two people; what we don't know now is why. Maybe we'll find out, but I suspect we won't.

    It would have been quite easy for the forensic investigators to see if the tyres would have changed anything - based on the brake marks at the scene, the positioning of the deceased prior to impact and the relative line of sight, and the braking distance assuming perfect tyres / and the actual braking distance on the vehicle in the condition it was in.

    Per the solicitor in court there was an extensive forensic investigation, if there was any evidence that these contributed significantly to the incident there is no doubt in my mind that The Ombudsman would have pursued further charges.

    The Ombudsman's has made it clear they pursue Gardai so if they could have done so in this case Im sure they would.


  • #220
    _feedback_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭_feedback_


    Lads, are you reading the thread with a blindfold on or what...

    He has been fined (on upper end as fines go) for the licence and tyres etc.

    The Ombudsman will investigate the incident.

    The report does suggest that he had no fault in the accident, but it is basically not up to that court to actually say it.


  • #221
    Terrontress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    he is guilty of manslaughter

    No, he's not. Manslaughter is a legal definition. He was not charged or tried.


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  • #222
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    he is guilty of manslaughter

    :eek:


  • #223
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    he is guilty of manslaughter

    Explain why you think this.


  • #224
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Terrontress wrote: »
    No, he's not. Manslaughter is a legal definition. He was not charged or tried.

    yes he is he accidentally killed people


  • #225
    withless
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭withless


    2 people get out of a car to have a fight on a motorway and get hit by an officer of the law with no drivers license in a car that is not roadworthy who is then fined 900 euro by a judge.

    Typical.


  • #226
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    yes he is he accidentally killed people

    It was an accident, this is not what manslaughter is.


  • #227
    baldbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,665 ✭✭✭baldbear


    I wonder why it was said in court he was a member of the henry st traffic corp when he wasn't. Why did he lie about that, surely he knew the truth would come out.


  • #228
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    yes he is he accidentally killed people

    That's not what manslaughter is.

    I like the way people are saying he should have been treated harsher because he was a Garda. If he was treated as a Garda he likely would be able to avail of the legal exemption provided for Gardaí from the Road Traffic Acts and would have gotten off on everything.


  • #229
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    MagicSean wrote: »
    That's not what manslaughter is.

    I like the way people are saying he should have been treated harsher because he was a Garda. If he was treated as a Garda he likely would be able to avail of the legal exemption provided for Gardaí from the Road Traffic Acts and would have gotten off on everything.

    Is that technically correct, he was off duty so regular joe public then.


  • #230
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    MagicSean wrote: »
    That's not what manslaughter is.

    I like the way people are saying he should have been treated harsher because he was a Garda. If he was treated as a Garda he likely would be able to avail of the legal exemption provided for Gardaí from the Road Traffic Acts and would have gotten off on everything.
    That exemption only applies to a Garda acting in executing his duty, this guy was off duty so he couldn't claim any exemption.


  • #231
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    lividduck wrote: »
    That exemption only applies to a Garda acting in executing his duty, this guy was off duty so he couldn't claim any exemption.

    That's my point. If you want him to be treated like a Garda for the purpose of punishment this would also allow him to avail of the exemption as a Garda.


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  • #232
    JonathanAnon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,717 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    I just heard that the guard's solicitor said he "had been on late duty for a number of days prior to this incident, and that he intended going to a dealer when he realised the condition of his car"

    Was he so tired (having worked late duty) that he forgot that he didnt have a license??? Intended going to a dealer, for a car he didnt have a license for? .. was he gonna get somebody else to drive his car to the dealer? Strange statements from the defence, the aim of which I presume was to highlight "mitigating circumstances"


  • #233
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    yes he is he accidentally killed people

    LRC report defined manslaughter as follows

    4.04 The following is an outline of the current categories of manslaughter in Ireland.
    (i)
    Voluntary Manslaughter
    (a) Where all the elements of murder are established by the prosecution but the jury is satisfied that the accused was acting under provocation when he/she killed the deceased;5
    (b) Where the prosecution establishes all the elements for murder but death is inflicted by excessive force in self-defence - see The People (AG) v Dwyer6 where it was held that if the defendant honestly believed that the force used was necessary, then he could not be guilty of murder; and also The People (DPP) v Nally7 where the defendant was convicted of manslaughter and was sentenced to 6 years imprisonment for using excessive force in defence of his property against an intruder.8
    (c) Undersection6oftheCriminalLaw(Insanity)Act2006,ifan accused successfully pleads diminished responsibility in answer to a charge of murder or infanticide, a conviction for manslaughter will be recorded with the sentence, at the courts discretion, being any term of imprisonment up to life.
    Involuntary manslaughter:
    (a) Manslaughter by unlawful and dangerous act ie the act must be a criminal offence, carrying with it the risk of bodily harm to another – a tort will not suffice (dangerousness is judged objectively);
    (b) Manslaughter by gross negligence involving a high risk that substantial personal injury will follow the accused’s negligent act or omission.


    http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rMurderandInvoluntaryMS.pdf


  • #234
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    MagicSean wrote: »
    That's my point. If you want him to be treated like a Garda for the purpose of punishment this would also allow him to avail of the exemption as a Garda.
    Why?


  • #235
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    JonathanAnon wrote: »
    I just heard that the guard's solicitor said he "had been on late duty for a number of days prior to this incident, and that he intended going to a dealer when he realised the condition of his car"

    Drugs as well!
    Jaysus...... this lad must be the bad lieutenant.


  • #236
    thebullkf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    HigginsJ wrote: »
    He has not been found guilty (so far) of anything other than minor offenses that you or I would get the same punishment that he received if it were our 1st time offending.

    You want to take away his life/career/future because of an accident in which he was not at fault. If it were Cronyism im sure the Gardai would have overlooked the fact that his tax was out of date and that he did not have licence.


    Having baldy tyres,no licence , no tax.... you say he's not at fault:confused:

    he broke the law he (allegedly) upholds. Can you say he didn't...????


  • #237
    Terrontress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    JonathanAnon wrote: »
    I just heard that the guard's solicitor said he "had been on late duty for a number of days prior to this incident, and that he intended going to a dealer when he realised the condition of his car"

    Was he so tired (having worked late duty) that he forgot that he didnt have a license??? Intended going to a dealer, for a car he didnt have a license for? .. was he gonna get somebody else to drive his car to the dealer? Strange statements from the defence, the aim of which I presume was to highlight "mitigating circumstances"

    I'd have thought pleading ignorance as to the state of the car would be better than admitting full knowledge of the safety issues and acknowledging not having rectified them.

    And if the deceased pair could not have been avoided, what is the relevance of his tiredness?


  • #238
    Itsdacraic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭Itsdacraic


    I'd be more concerned about the fact two other people who were with the two people who were fighting drove off and left their friends to die at the scene because they did not anyone to see what they had in the car.


  • #239
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    thebullkf wrote: »
    Having baldy tyres,no licence , no tax.... you say he's not at fault:confused:

    he broke the law he (allegedly) upholds. Can you say he didn't...????

    Yes he broke the law, he was brought before a court to answer for breaking the law. He pleaded guilty and was punished as any citizen of the country would be in the same circumstances. Now if anyone is saying that in a republic it is ok to punish people harder because of the job they do is that not as bad as saying people should be treated lighter because of the job they do.


  • #240
    KarlDrake
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 150 ✭✭KarlDrake


    HigginsJ wrote: »
    KarlDrake wrote: »
    Is €200 the standard fine for no tax or is it a Garda thing?
    Is €200 the standard fine for no license or is it a Garda thing?

    Thirdly, is it just the Gardaí's word we have for two guys lying on the road?[/QUOTE]


    Well the fact that he drove over them pretty much backs that up no?

    U thinking he pulled them out of the drunktank, cuffed them, lay them down on the road and ran over them, ala the cartoon scene with the girl tied to the railway tracks??

    Pretty much. But with that piano music playing as well. I was unaware of the other details mentioned elsewhere, e.g. the other occupants of the cars that had these two poor eejits in it etc. Otherwise, who's to say they were having a chat and the driver broadsided them 'cos he was drunk or whatever. This appears not to have been the case, so although it's apparently under investigation, I'm satisfied that there's no hanky panky going here apart from the low nature of the fines given. If that was standard, why would anybody bother taxing their car, no? But thanks for addressing it all the same.


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  • #241
    thebullkf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    elviscostello wrote: »
    I by no means think that anyone should drive a non roadworthy car, particularly without your licence in order, but for the love of god.

    Take a mans life and career from him because he was unfortunate enough to come across two dopes rolling around a fúckin motorway?

    no, take it away cos he drove illegally, and killed two people.

    the arguement that"someone else would've done it, if not him" is bolloxology.

    Applying that logic to theft=Sure if i don't steal that telly/wallet/<insert other> someone else will...right?

    Fact is he drove on tyres he'd not allow anyone else drive on (legally) , he drove without a licence, something else he wouldn't (legally) let someone away with.

    I fail to see the logic of the strong support for the garda tbh...


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