The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

gkell3 · 17-04-2012 05:42PM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I'm not confusing anything. Your theological beliefs and your scientific claims are not separate.You have an a priori position that the bible is true. This is not how science operates. The quote above and the creationist position is unscientific and dishonest.

I am delighted you found your level among the creationists,unfortunately most Christians can't distinguish between empiricism and science and especially those who are fond of the 'scientific method' as opposed to genuine science which can be approached in many ways.

Interpretation of the Bible is only as good as the level of intelligence and the depth of understanding of the person making sense of it and a superficial approach to faith generally keeps empiricists and creationists on the periphery of understanding and that is fine by my reckoning.

"If' anyone shall set the authority of Holy Writ against clear and
manifest reason, he who does this knows not what he has undertaken;
for he opposes to the truth not the meaning of the Bible, which is
beyond his comprehension, but rather his own interpretation, not what
is in the Bible, but what he has found in himself and imagines to be
there." Augustine

The thing about empiricists is that they have a very creationist view of history and especially in the area of astronomy.All the same,at least the empiricist/creationist dual is keeping science front and center as opposed to the sterile Christian who's only virtue seems to be self-congratulation that they are not creationists.They have Darwin's words in front of them explaining how he arrived at his conclusion through Malthus,Malthus's commentary on he arrived at his conclusion and Hitler's appeal to the same natural selection agenda which created devastation for his nation and many others while the empiricist community wants to shunt the original assertions into 'social Darwinism' even though they still retain the survival 'mechanism'.As far as I can see,empiricists are getting a free run without the slightest hint of a genuine objection even though that mechanism was played out historically via Nazi doctrine.

With no authority to rein in the speculative/modeling elements which comprise the toxic strain of empiricism and an empiricism which at every turn has tried to diminish Christianity,I have to shake my head at people who call themselves Christians but do not act like it.

Morbert · 18-04-2012 03:57PM

gkell3 wrote: »

When forced to look at where the 'Darwinian mechanisms' lead it is deflected to 'social Darwinism',a deliberate shutting out of the original reasoning,redirecting the reasoning by inflicting human modeling on biological evolution using computers just as their counterparts managed to temporarily destroy astronomy through modeling using clocks.An unrepentant,narrow-minded and dour bunch of humans that ever set foot on the planet followed by an ineffectual crowd calling themselves Christians unable to discern what is going on.

Is there any part of the empirical/modeling stamp on evolution that people cannot understand ? -

"One day something brought to my recollection Malthus’s “Principles of
Population,” which I had read about twelve years before. I thought of
his clear exposition of “the positive checks to increase”—disease,
accidents, war, and famine—which keep down the population of savage
races to so much lower an average than that of civilized peoples. It
then occurred to me that these causes or their equivalents are
continually acting in the case of animals also.. because in every
generation the inferior would inevitably be killed off and the
superior would remain—that is, the fittest would survive.… The more I
thought over it the more I became convinced that I had at length found
the long-sought-for law of nature that solved the problem of the
origin of species." Charles Darwin

"Till at length the whole territory, from the confines of China to the
shores of the Baltic, was peopled by a various race of Barbarians,
brave, robust, and enterprising, inured to hardship, and delighting in
war. Some tribes maintained their independence. Others ranged
themselves under the standard of some barbaric chieftain who led them
to victory after victory, and what was of more importance, to regions
abounding in corn, wine, and oil, the long wished for consummation,
and great reward of their labours. An Alaric, an Attila, or a Zingis
Khan, and the chiefs around them, might fight for glory, for the fame
of extensive conquests, but the true cause that set in motion the
great tide of northern emigration, and that continued to propel it
till it rolled at different periods against China, Persia, italy, and
even Egypt, was a scarcity of food, a population extended beyond the
means of supporting it." Thomas Malthus

"Without consideration of traditions and prejudices, Germany must find
the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance
along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted
living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the
danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave
nation. The National Socialist Movement must strive to eliminate the
disproportion between our population and our area—viewing this latter
as a source of food as well as a basis for power politics—between our
historical past and the hopelessness of our present impotence" Mein
Kampf

You sound frustrated.

doctoremma · 18-04-2012 04:28PM

Morbert wrote: »

You sound frustrated.

Thanks for summarising that for me. I couldn't get through it.

gkell3 · 18-04-2012 05:07PM

Morbert wrote: »

You sound frustrated.

All you have are schoolboys out of their depth with technical and historical issues,if Christians can't match the words of Darwin.Malthus and Hitler in terms of a technical and historical trajectory with the known outcomes then it says more about the state of Christianity than it does about the weakminded modelers like yourselves.

Morbert · 18-04-2012 05:47PM

gkell3 wrote: »

All you have are schoolboys out of their depth with technical and historical issues,if Christians can't match the words of Darwin.Malthus and Hitler in terms of a technical and historical trajectory with the known outcomes then it says more about the state of Christianity than it does about the weakminded modelers like yourselves.

Thank you for your relevant post. Here is a picture of equal relevance.

gkell3 · 18-04-2012 06:04PM

Morbert wrote: »

Thank you for your relevant post. Here is a picture of equal relevance.

The idea of natural selection or the 'Darwinian mechanism' as you so dryly call it is nothing more than colonial superiority directed in the crudest way possible into creation.I don't have a picture of a duck or all the other pictures empirical modelers send in my direction,I do have pictures of the consequences when a group or country almost destroys itself and others for no good reason other than natural selection as Darwin/Malthus thought of it -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKmUZprD3RA&feature=related

It does not help that I attend to the core issue which give rise to a vicious strain of empiricism that drives speculation/modeling without the support of the Christian community,in point of fact,their reaction is even more hostile.They are the ones who should look at the holocaust footage as that was a direct result on the principles of the 'Darwinian mechanism' and the modelers who follow it.

Zombrex · 18-04-2012 06:04PM

gkell3 wrote: »

All you have are schoolboys out of their depth with technical and historical issues,if Christians can't match the words of Darwin.Malthus and Hitler in terms of a technical and historical trajectory with the known outcomes then it says more about the state of Christianity than it does about the weakminded modelers like yourselves.

Your posts are increasingly erratic, nonsensical and aggressive. You sound like you are having a nervous break down "on air". Perhaps take a break from the Internet and go talk to someone. You do not want to get to a level of aggression or frustration where you might harm yourself or someone else.

Wh1stler · 18-04-2012 06:07PM

doctoremma wrote: »

Thanks for summarising that for me. I couldn't get through it.

TBH, I've stopped trying. I'm starting to think that 'gkell' is the Hebrew word for 'spammer'.

Wh1stler · 18-04-2012 06:10PM

gkell3 wrote: »

The idea of natural selection or the 'Darwinian mechanism' as you so dryly call it is nothing more than colonial superiority directed in the crudest way possible into creation.I don't have a picture of a duck or all the other pictures empirical modelers send in my direction,I do have pictures of the consequences when a group or country almost destroys itself and others for no good reason other than natural selection as Darwin/Malthus thought of it -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKmUZprD3RA&feature=related

It does not help that I attend to the core issue which give rise to a vicious strain of empiricism that drives speculation/modeling without the support of the Christian community,in point of fact,their reaction is even more hostile.They are the ones who should look at the holocaust footage as that was a direct result on the principles of the 'Darwinian mechanism' and the modelers who follow it.

Wait! Are you blaming the destruction of the Amalekites by Saul on Charles Darwin?

I think human-nature existed way before Darwin's time.

gkell3 · 18-04-2012 06:13PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Your posts are increasingly erratic, nonsensical and aggressive. You sound like you are having a nervous break down "on air". Perhaps take a break from the Internet and go talk to someone. You do not want to get to a level of aggression or frustration where you might harm yourself or someone else.

What,can you not look at the 'Darwinian mechanism' in action in the words of the person who originally proposed it (Malthus),the person who built on it (Darwin) and the people who put it into practical effect (Hitler) ?.Posting a picture of a duck in response to the connected texts which espouse a 'Darwinian mechanism' is hardly the sign of people who are sure of themselves and you are free to comment on the same texts as they are now part of history and the survival of the fittest played out on a large scale,now known as World WAR II -

"One day something brought to my recollection Malthus’s “Principles of
Population,” which I had read about twelve years before. I thought of
his clear exposition of “the positive checks to increase”—disease,
accidents, war, and famine—which keep down the population of savage
races to so much lower an average than that of civilized peoples. It
then occurred to me that these causes or their equivalents are
continually acting in the case of animals also.. because in every
generation the inferior would inevitably be killed off and the
superior would remain—that is, the fittest would survive.… The more I
thought over it the more I became convinced that I had at length found
the long-sought-for law of nature that solved the problem of the
origin of species." Charles Darwin

"Till at length the whole territory, from the confines of China to the
shores of the Baltic, was peopled by a various race of Barbarians,
brave, robust, and enterprising, inured to hardship, and delighting in
war. Some tribes maintained their independence. Others ranged
themselves under the standard of some barbaric chieftain who led them
to victory after victory, and what was of more importance, to regions
abounding in corn, wine, and oil, the long wished for consummation,
and great reward of their labours. An Alaric, an Attila, or a Zingis
Khan, and the chiefs around them, might fight for glory, for the fame
of extensive conquests, but the true cause that set in motion the
great tide of northern emigration, and that continued to propel it
till it rolled at different periods against China, Persia, italy, and
even Egypt, was a scarcity of food, a population extended beyond the
means of supporting it." Thomas Malthus

"Without consideration of traditions and prejudices, Germany must find
the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance
along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted
living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the
danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave
nation. The National Socialist Movement must strive to eliminate the
disproportion between our population and our area—viewing this latter
as a source of food as well as a basis for power politics—between our
historical past and the hopelessness of our present impotence" Mein
Kampf

Zombrex · 18-04-2012 06:16PM

gkell3 wrote: »

What,can you not look at the 'Darwinian mechanism' in action in the words of the person who originally proposed it (Malthus),the person who built on it (Darwin) and the people who put it into practical effect (Hitler) ?.

I'm happy to look at all those things. But I think your health and mental well being is a tad more important, don't you agree? You seem to be very angry and aggressive towards people you do not know on the internet. This generally is not a good sign. Again I would suggest you go talk to someone, being angry all the time is not a healthy state to be in.

gkell3 · 18-04-2012 06:28PM

Zombrex wrote: »

I'm happy to look at all those things. But I think your health and mental well being is a tad more important, don't you agree?

You think indeed !,if I could get you to agree that one 24 hour day keeps in step with one rotation of the Earth I would consider it a major miracle much less comment on something as complex as evolutionary biology or geology.

The idea of a 'Darwinian mechanism' based on colonial superiority applied directly to creation is quite a leap and that it eventually surfaced as Hitler's reasons for expanding his territory and leading the German people into ruin along with the rest of Europe would normally turn the stomach of anyone sensible.

Christians are supposed to respond with revulsion to the idea of natural law based on tribal superiority which is what Darwin saw in Malthus.Read it again and if a Christian does not accept the sheer vacuousness of the assertions proposed as a 'law of nature',they don't deserve the name of Christian.The Nazi Germans thought themselves as perfectly sane and rational and so do you but behind the idea of a natural selection mechanism is old-fashioned greed imposed on creation as a 'law'.Darwin was writing not long after this 'savage race' had its population decimated by famine and unless you think that was natural selection at work,welcome to the real world -

"One day something brought to my recollection Malthus’s “Principles of
Population,” which I had read about twelve years before. I thought of
his clear exposition of “the positive checks to increase”—disease,
accidents, war, and famine—which keep down the population of savage
races to so much lower an average than that of civilized peoples. It
then occurred to me that these causes or their equivalents are
continually acting in the case of animals also.. because in every
generation the inferior would inevitably be killed off and the
superior would remain—that is, the fittest would survive.… The more I
thought over it the more I became convinced that I had at length found
the long-sought-for law of nature that solved the problem of the
origin of species." Charles Darwin

"Till at length the whole territory, from the confines of China to the
shores of the Baltic, was peopled by a various race of Barbarians,
brave, robust, and enterprising, inured to hardship, and delighting in
war. Some tribes maintained their independence. Others ranged
themselves under the standard of some barbaric chieftain who led them
to victory after victory, and what was of more importance, to regions
abounding in corn, wine, and oil, the long wished for consummation,
and great reward of their labours. An Alaric, an Attila, or a Zingis
Khan, and the chiefs around them, might fight for glory, for the fame
of extensive conquests, but the true cause that set in motion the
great tide of northern emigration, and that continued to propel it
till it rolled at different periods against China, Persia, italy, and
even Egypt, was a scarcity of food, a population extended beyond the
means of supporting it." Thomas Malthus

"Without consideration of traditions and prejudices, Germany must find
the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance
along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted
living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the
danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave
nation. The National Socialist Movement must strive to eliminate the
disproportion between our population and our area—viewing this latter
as a source of food as well as a basis for power politics—between our
historical past and the hopelessness of our present impotence" Mein
Kampf

Zombrex · 18-04-2012 06:47PM

gkell3 wrote: »

You think indeed !,if I could get you to agree that one 24 hour day keeps in step with one rotation of the Earth I would consider it a major miracle much less comment on something as complex as evolutionary biology or geology.

Have you asked yourself though why that makes you so angry? Surely you agree it is not healthy to get as angry as you are getting over something like the rotation of the Earth?

gkell3 · 18-04-2012 07:29PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Have you asked yourself though why that makes you so angry? Surely you agree it is not healthy to get as angry as you are getting over something like the rotation of the Earth?

It is not sinking in son,you rate much lower than the creationist and your intellectual standard falls even lower than a flat Earther although I don't believe any exist .

The proof that the Earth turns once in 24 hours is simple arithmetic,you count Monday as one rotation followed by Tuesday the next rotation and so on therefore when you get to February 29th as the 1461st day and 24 hours of rotation,it encloses 4 orbital circuits of the Earth to the nearest rotation or 4 years as we know it.

You can force yourself to believe a 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance as a law of nature just as you can found your idea of natural selection based on tribal superiority as a natural law but that Christians can't contend with these two things along with all the other disasters of a vicious strain of empiricism is shocking and I have a right to express indignation even it I stand alone in doing so.

It is not you and the empirical bunch that I mind,after all indoctrination is indoctrination,it is Christians who do not show the slightest sign of recognition that it is their children out there who are coming under the influence of people who can't reason properly and who think faith is an outdated superstition held by the cowardly and the intellectually inferior. The language of the 'scientific method' must sound daunting to the unwary Christian but to me it is so much intellectual tinsel with no substance and God would not suffer humanity to abide by pure rubbish and indulgences that exist only in the minds of modelers and those who know no better.

If they suddenly decided to start teaching in secondary school that the Earth was flat because empirical models suggested it,people would be incensed yet this is exactly what is happening with one rotation and one 24 hour day in not being capable of linking one with the other without the slightest hesitation.You bet I am incensed and so should every reasonable person who values their intelligence and that of their children.

Wh1stler · 19-04-2012 03:05AM

gkell3 wrote: »

It is not sinking in son,you rate much lower than the creationist and your intellectual standard falls even lower than a flat Earther although I don't believe any exist .

The proof that the Earth turns once in 24 hours is simple arithmetic,you count Monday as one rotation followed by Tuesday the next rotation and so on therefore when you get to February 29th as the 1461st day and 24 hours of rotation,it encloses 4 orbital circuits of the Earth to the nearest rotation or 4 years as we know it.

You can force yourself to believe a 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance as a law of nature just as you can found your idea of natural selection based on tribal superiority as a natural law but that Christians can't contend with these two things along with all the other disasters of a vicious strain of empiricism is shocking and I have a right to express indignation even it I stand alone in doing so.

It is not you and the empirical bunch that I mind,after all indoctrination is indoctrination,it is Christians who do not show the slightest sign of recognition that it is their children out there who are coming under the influence of people who can't reason properly and who think faith is an outdated superstition held by the cowardly and the intellectually inferior. The language of the 'scientific method' must sound daunting to the unwary Christian but to me it is so much intellectual tinsel with no substance and God would not suffer humanity to abide by pure rubbish and indulgences that exist only in the minds of modelers and those who know no better.

If they suddenly decided to start teaching in secondary school that the Earth was flat because empirical models suggested it,people would be incensed yet this is exactly what is happening with one rotation and one 24 hour day in not being capable of linking one with the other without the slightest hesitation.You bet I am incensed and so should every reasonable person who values their intelligence and that of their children.

Yeah but 'fire and brimstone' doesn't (and shouldn't) work anymore.

Well, okay, actually it does work on some people; it can keep the kids quiet.

But it shouldn't.

Would you summarise in a couple of short paragraphs: What method should I use to discern truth from lies?

jmurry · 19-04-2012 03:15AM

I have a question.

A friend of mine always talks about how Jesus was actually a real person who walked the earth and was a great man, but he was just an ordinary man. But over the years his feats were sensationalised and he became God like. Is he talking total bolox or sone truth? What is the common theory about this?

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 10:23AM

jmurry wrote: »

I have a question.

A friend of mine always talks about how Jesus was actually a real person who walked the earth and was a great man, but he was just an ordinary man. But over the years his feats were sensationalised and he became God like. Is he talking total bolox or sone truth? What is the common theory about this?

I suppose the nature of this era is that everything is a 'theory' and it is drilled into the skulls of people incessantly.Jesus did not have a theory about God as Arians like to believe and Newton was an Arian in this respect.

"If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?" Jesus

How do you teach somebody about inspiration and what inspires them. Astronomy is inspirational so that when I encounter a work that is built on pretense and has an overreaching objective I can clearly see it was not done as most inspiring works are done -

"And this is the verdict,n that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God" Jesus

http://www.usccb.org/bible/john/3

This is common sense whether it is a simple act of kindness ,the written books of the Bible and the life of Christ himself,people can actually discern what is genuinely inspiring as opposed to what is pretense and novelties.I don't believe that Jesus is God because the Bible demands that I accept it and come under some sort of punishment if I don't, I have been drawn to affirm the life of Christ through the lives and works of others who used the background of faith/inspiration to accomplish works great and small.Why else would Jesus have said -

"whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father." Jesus

How many miracles in your life have you seen in human physical endeavor,in engineering,in the arts and music or in any act of human kindness and courage that fall within the Christian spirit for if anyone knows of a different kind of Christianity then it is a lot lesser than the spirit that moved Jesus to act as he did.

It may be true that few people can read astronomical works like some people read newspapers,it is a talent that I make no apologies for and I can go through many of the error and distortions that cloud the original works of the great astronomers and prevent people from doing productive astronomy today.

The theory that the Earth is flat and not round is uninspiring and you can't do anything with it likewise the theory of a 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance
is equally as bad and while I wouldn't require a single person to go into painstaking detail necessary to untangle the erroneous view,the least people can do is accept that the 24 hours of today is also one rotation of the planet and the correspondence never diverges.So far that hasn't happened and that is a great loss to science as a facet of Christian thinking.

Sin a bhfuil

doctoremma · 19-04-2012 10:39AM

gkell3 wrote: »

the 24 hours of today is also one rotation of the planet

But it's not. The planet rotates once every 23h56m.

Zombrex · 19-04-2012 11:39AM

gkell3 wrote: »

You bet I am incensed and so should every reasonable person who values their intelligence and that of their children.

But why does that incense you gkell? What does it make you so angry? Again that cannot be healthy, to be angry all the time.

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 11:42AM

doctoremma wrote: »

But it's not. The planet rotates once every 23h56m.

I told you before that I rate you on the same level as a flat Earther as today,April 19th 2012 ,you will experience a sunrise and sunset within this 24 hour period along with all the other daily effects and have no reason to believe that tomorrow will be any different and the day after that with no possible divergence between a day and a rotation.You simply count Monday as one 24 hour day and rotation and then Tuesday as the next and so on hence the proof is arithmetic,no more or less.

The 'theory of gravity' is built on the 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance and I don't expect anyone to go through the details of this uninspiring junk -

"That the fixed stars being at rest, the periodic times of the five
primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the
earth about the sun, are in the sesquiplicate proportion of their mean
distances from the sun.
This proportion, first observed by Kepler, is now received by all
astronomers; for the periodic times are the same, and the dimensions
of the orbits are the same, whether the sun revolves about the earth,
or the earth about the sun." Newton

If Christians find themselves under assault from people who can't tell you why you experiences all the daily events of today and why the same will happen tomorrow then it says more about their own intelligence and certainly in context of the words of Jesus himself -

"If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?" Jesus

Nobody has to go into great detail as to how planetary dynamics mesh with terrestrial effects but at least common sense should intervene in discerning that one 24 hour day and one rotation are the same without the slightest hesitation.

I had left the previous post for Christians to wake up out of the lethargy and realize that what is presented as science to students is unsightly, unacceptable and anti-Christian.

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 11:50AM

Zombrex wrote: »

But why does that incense you gkell? What does it make you so angry? Again that cannot be healthy, to be angry all the time.

You don't get it - if the education system suddenly decided to teach students that the Earth is flat then parents would rightly protest for any number of reasons.

The education system must teach students that the 24 hours of Monday followed by the 24 hours of Tuesday and so on reflect the rotation of the Earth day after day without any divergence between days and rotations.

Healthy indeed !,whatever mental affliction which tries to force a 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance as a fact is the same one who cannot make sense of Christ and Christianity.This is why the responsibility must fall on the Christian community to correct this ultimate offense to human intelligence.

Doc Farrell · 19-04-2012 11:53AM

So why don't you present all your thoughts and truths on a Facebook page and if they are as correct as you believe they are then I'm sure some of the 750 million facebook people will defend you. However, if you find, as was the case in the astronomy forum here, that nobody is prepared to defend your views, then I guess you will have to live with that too?
As Zombrex said, you are only working yourself up for nothing, there's no medal to be won at the end of the week here.

doctoremma · 19-04-2012 12:16PM

gkell3 wrote: »

at least common sense should intervene in discerning that one 24 hour day and one rotation are the same without the slightest hesitation.

Common sense might indeed tell you that. In this case, and for many other assertions throughout history, common sense is wrong.

Common sense would tell us that we live on a flat earth, that a heavier object falls faster than a lighter one, that the passage of time is a constant. All wrong.

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 12:23PM

Doc Farrell wrote: »

So why don't you present all your thoughts and truths on a Facebook page and if they are as correct as you believe they are then I'm sure some of the 750 million facebook people will defend you. However, if you find, as was the case in the astronomy forum here, that nobody is prepared to defend your views, then I guess you will have to live with that too?
As Zombrex said, you are only working yourself up for nothing, there's no medal to be won at the end of the week here.

My view that the 24 hours of Monday followed by the 24 hours of Tuesday and so on keep step with a rotation of the Earth without divergence and you people imagine you are Christians !.

Thankfully you have no children because if you taught them the Earth was flat you would not do as much damage as teach them the 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance of empiricists.

Anti-Christians more like it.

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 12:31PM

doctoremma wrote: »

Common sense might indeed tell you that. In this case, and for many other assertions throughout history, common sense is wrong.

Common sense would tell us that we live on a flat earth, that a heavier object falls faster than a lighter one, that the passage of time is a constant. All wrong.

Common sense tells you that at the end of a 24 hour day spent in God's creation the Earth will have turned once and even if nobody is ever required to go beyond that basic of all facts of creation,they certainly aren't going to claim any degree of responsibility for students or future generations if they propose otherwise.

You see all the other 'Christians' here are as hostile as the non believer and that tells you that you are not alone in attempting to diminish Christ and Christianity and they come under greater condemnation than you insofar as you are little more than another form of a creationist.

lmaopml · 19-04-2012 12:36PM

gkell3 wrote: »

My view that the 24 hours of Monday followed by the 24 hours of Tuesday and so on keep step with a rotation of the Earth without divergence and you people imagine you are Christians !.

Thankfully you have no children because if you taught them the Earth was flat you would not do as much damage as teach them the 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance of empiricists.

Anti-Christians more like it.

Gkell, with respect, I know this seems to be a very dear issue for you with regards your 'Christianity' - However, I fail to understand why? It's a bit of a hobby horse -

You quoted Augustine earlier ( a very wise Saint indeed ) in relation to not digging ones heels in when looking at Scripture at the detriment of truth and the search for natural truth, otherwise one is only inserting themselves into Scriptures - I would imagine that is exactly how many Christians feel in relation to the Sciences and what continues to be revealed, reviewed, corrected, changed, all on it's journey in natural understanding....They can compliment eachother for many Christians.

I really do feel for you, and I'm not trying to patronise at all, words on a screen sometimes don't put across the proper feelings - but it's clear you are really really upset about this??? So much so to call others, 'anti-Christian', when we're no such thing. It's also sometimes difficult to dicipher your posts, and what you are so annoyed about...sorry, but it is.

Zombrex · 19-04-2012 12:38PM

gkell3 wrote: »

You don't get it - if the education system suddenly decided to teach students that the Earth is flat then parents would rightly protest for any number of reasons.

But you aren't protesting. You are getting angry with strangers on an internet discussion forum.

gkell3 wrote: »

The education system must teach students that the 24 hours of Monday followed by the 24 hours of Tuesday and so on reflect the rotation of the Earth day after day without any divergence between days and rotations.

Which education system? The Irish education system does not teach this, the 24 hours come from the time between high noons, not the time it takes the Earth to rotate.

So again I'm not sure why you are so angry. Are you sure you are not angry for other reasons, and this is just something you have fixated upon as a way of venting this aggression?

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 12:59PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Which education system? The Irish education system does not teach this, the 24 hours come from the time between high noons, not the time it takes the Earth to rotate.

You can't say the Earth turns once in 24 hours without hesitation and the 24 hours of Monday followed by the 24 hours of Tuesday each correspond to one rotation following the next without divergence.This is what puts you below the level of a flat Earther and those blackguards calling themselves Christians willing to support you.

The most basic known fact that connects astronomy with terrestrial sciences is that within a 24 hour day ,all the experiences and expression of God's creation is due to one rotation of the Earth,it is not negotiable and putting students in harms way for an empirical doctrine that teaches an 1465 rotation/1461 day imbalance is anti-Christian whatever way you look at it.

You still don't get that God works in the most surprising ways and turns the pretense of men into ashes in the twinkling of an eye.As for those Christians who are busy congratulating themselves for keeping silent,they may as well join the non believer as it takes intelligence to enjoy God's creation and not diminish it.

Zombrex · 19-04-2012 01:04PM

gkell3 wrote: »

You can't say the Earth turns once in 24 hours without hesitation and the 24 hours of Monday followed by the 24 hours of Tuesday each correspond to one rotation following the next without divergence.This is what puts you below the level of a flat Earther and those blackguards calling themselves Christians willing to support you.

Again a 24 hour day is based on the time between high noons, not the Earth's rotation.

So I'm again questioning why you are getting so angry? You claim it is anger at an education system teaching something that is wrong, but then on examination the education system (the Irish one at least) doesn't teach what you claim it teaches.

So again why are you so angry?

gkell3 · 19-04-2012 01:15PM

lmaopml wrote: »

I really do feel for you,

Spare you 'feelings' for students with the talent to figure out what you cannot but unfortunately have to deal with minds like open graves and it looks like you are among this type.

When faced with something as simple as being asked to confirm that within a 24 hour day and all the experiences which God grants you within that day,it corresponds to one rotation of the Earth,no more or no less.You can't do it which makes you no better or worse than a flat Earther.

Nothing worse than a person calling themselves Christian yet working towards destroying it and as for Augustine,at least he could understand that astronomical appearances are far more difficult to assess as opposed to the meaningless nonsense you and the empiricist engage in -

"Some of the brethren raise a question concerning the motion of heaven, whether it is fixed or moved. If it is moved, they say, how is it a firmament? If it stands still, how do these stars which are held fixed in it go round from east to west, the more northerly performing shorter circuits near the pole, so that the heaven (if there is another pole unknown to us) may seem to revolve upon some axis, or (if there is no other pole) may be thought to move as a discus? To these men I reply that it would require many subtle and profound reasonings to find out which of these things is actually so; but to undertake this and discuss it is consistent neither with my leisure nor with the duty of those whom I desire to instruct in essential matters more directly conducing to their salvation and to the benefit of the holy Church." St Augustine

Christians indeed !,how I wish you were.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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